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Recent 10000Hrs Cic Email Re Meeting & Key Points


ktf

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On these boards you will see debate and discussion relating to potentially two other expressions of interest in acquiring 52% shareholding in SMFC. Some comment highlights that we (fans) no nothing of these potential bids and they will/could become formally accepted bids and we would be none the wiser on their detail until after this has happened, and as fans be last in line to be informed.

That is exactly what has taken place with 10000 hours bid! it was accepted by the selling consortium, discussed/agreed with business and community members before a single fan of the club got to see any detail.

This back to front approach to "Fan Governance" has shown a shocking level of contempt for the very people reputedly becoming the goverance of the club, i.e. "The Fans"... last to know anything about a proposal that aims to put them in charge of their club.

Perhaps time will tell and genuine Fan governance will become a reality at SMFC, that being they are involved at the outset, and as we always are there till we die.

I have to say I think that is a bit harsh.

It would have been great if we had been able to do this the way you suggested.

It is of course the way it normally happens, in that when a club is in trouble then the fans start to gather around to try to take control.

As I stated before no one (to my knoweldge) has ever tried to get a group of fans together, with external funding, in order to try to buy the club as part of a competitive process (in that there are other bidders) and the reality is that the only way we could do it was first to get the sellers to think it was a good idea and then the funders and then everybody else.

there was no particular order for the membership as you suggest.

When we had the first public meeting we had already many committed individuals as we did corporates and community members.

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Guest somner9

I have to say I think that is a bit harsh.

It would have been great if we had been able to do this the way you suggested.

It is of course the way it normally happens, in that when a club is in trouble then the fans start to gather around to try to take control.

As I stated before no one (to my knoweldge) has ever tried to get a group of fans together, with external funding, in order to try to buy the club as part of a competitive process (in that there are other bidders) and the reality is that the only way we could do it was first to get the sellers to think it was a good idea and then the funders and then everybody else.

there was no particular order for the membership as you suggest.

When we had the first public meeting we had already many committed individuals as we did corporates and community members.

You could have done it the way I suggested, you would just needed to have trusted the fans interested in governing their club.

Why you make constant reference to "Clubs in trouble" when talking about our club really turns people off as we have been fortunate to have had a dedicated and effective BoD these last years.

All it needed was to bring your ideas to the fans first, they would have been (and some have) your biggest promoters and supporters.

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You could have done it the way I suggested, you would just needed to have trusted the fans interested in governing their club.

Why you make constant reference to "Clubs in trouble" when talking about our club really turns people off as we have been fortunate to have had a dedicated and effective BoD these last years.

All it needed was to bring your ideas to the fans first, they would have been (and some have) your biggest promoters and supporters.

We will just need to agree to differ on the options that were avaliable for the strategy at the time but hopefully agree on the destination...Fan Governed and Community owned.

I would be delighted for your further input in what appears to be our agreement in what we both wish to achieve.

You can PM me your details if you wish and I hope to see you on Wednesday.

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Guest somner9

We will just need to agree to differ on the options that were avaliable for the strategy at the time but hopefully agree on the destination...Fan Governed and Community owned.

I would be delighted for your further input in what appears to be our agreement in what we both wish to achieve.

You can PM me your details if you wish and I hope to see you on Wednesday.

don't hold your breathbye1.gif

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You could have done it the way I suggested, you would just needed to have trusted the fans interested in governing their club.

Why you make constant reference to "Clubs in trouble" when talking about our club really turns people off as we have been fortunate to have had a dedicated and effective BoD these last years.

All it needed was to bring your ideas to the fans first, they would have been (and some have) your biggest promoters and supporters.

Purely personal opinion here, but when I first heard RAs CIC plan being pitched to me, one of the first things I wanted to know was who was already behind the plan, and had any corporate or community groups been signed up. I would have been suspicious in the extreme if someone (who isnae' even a Smurrrnn fan, and comes from a weird place called Ayrshire), had nothing on the table. Nothing to demonstrate that he was serious, and that he'd been able to persuade groups or companies to back his idea. I was more inclined to treat his plan with a helluva' lot more credibility because I saw others had already committed.

I cannot speak for other fans, but if I'd been asked my thoughts on a community ownership plan which had as yet no backing from community or business groups, I'd have thought 'Hmmm... this bloke wants US, the rank and file, to back him first, THEN he'll try to get the others involved?' I would undoubtably have been suspicious of his ability to actually get corporate or community backing, and would have felt that this bloke thought individual supporters were 'easy pickings' compared to convincing bigger organisations to back him.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't indeed.

Edited by pozbaird
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Purely personal opinion here, but when I first heard RAs CIC plan being pitched to me, one of the first things I wanted to know was who was already behind the plan, and had any corporate or community groups been signed up. I would have been suspicious in the extreme if someone (who isnae' even a Smurrrnn fan, and comes from a weird place called Ayrshire), had nothing on the table. Nothing to demonstrate that he was serious, and that he'd been able to persuade groups or companies to back his idea. I was more inclined to treat his plan with a helluva' lot more credibility because I saw others had already committed.

I cannot speak for other fans, but if I'd been asked my thoughts on a community ownership plan which had as yet no backing from community or business groups, I'd have thought 'Hmmm... this bloke wants US, the rank and file, to back him first, THEN he'll try to get the others involved?' I would undoubtably have been suspicious of his ability to actually get corporate or community backing, and would have felt that this bloke thought individual supporters were 'easy pickings' compared to convincing bigger organisations to back him.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't indeed.

Brilliantly put, these were my thoughts at the time :)

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Oooooh this all feels very familiar...yeah, I know nobody wants to know about Ebbsfleet etc as apparently the Saint Mirren fanbase knows it all anyway.

Strip away the CIC, Richard, the fans who did know, the ones who came on board and the ones who've stood outside and you're still left with a very good idea and a strong vehicle for progress. A very good idea that needed a lot of feasibility work done before going to the fans, that's natural enough as the fans were going to be putting their money in. If you go to a shop you don't just buy a ball of wool, some thread and buttons so why are people on here stating that the idea should have come to the fans first? The idea would have been nothing, an item of clothing unassembled or a water treatment works where the reservoir wasn't even there yet. It needed some community organisations backing it and a knowledge of which funding groups the CIC could go to. Had it not had the backing there and a bit of knowledge then it'd have been another Reg...oh wait, the shareholders voted for that whilst a few others sat at the back of the room with some strong reservations. We've had the poor idea put in front of us before, we've had share issues that weren't taken up and we've had SMISA do some great work yet not get embraced.

I'm not going to demand people just demand things, but at times it is a case of shouting for something you'll be getting whilst simultaneously shouting for something you don't really want. We'll get fan representation, but we will need an interim setup to get our head round what's involved and handle the handover period (how many times do each of us fail to get all the shopping, let alone a group of us just take on a football club). We also can't demand 10000 Hours make statements only to round on them the second they do...for no other reason than it only fuels the argument that the Saint Mirren fanbase couldn't run a football club without it becoming a bun fight.

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Oooooh this all feels very familiar...yeah, I know nobody wants to know about Ebbsfleet etc as apparently the Saint Mirren fanbase knows it all anyway.

Strip away the CIC, Richard, the fans who did know, the ones who came on board and the ones who've stood outside and you're still left with a very good idea and a strong vehicle for progress. A very good idea that needed a lot of feasibility work done before going to the fans, that's natural enough as the fans were going to be putting their money in. If you go to a shop you don't just buy a ball of wool, some thread and buttons so why are people on here stating that the idea should have come to the fans first? The idea would have been nothing, an item of clothing unassembled or a water treatment works where the reservoir wasn't even there yet. It needed some community organisations backing it and a knowledge of which funding groups the CIC could go to. Had it not had the backing there and a bit of knowledge then it'd have been another Reg...oh wait, the shareholders voted for that whilst a few others sat at the back of the room with some strong reservations. We've had the poor idea put in front of us before, we've had share issues that weren't taken up and we've had SMISA do some great work yet not get embraced.

I'm not going to demand people just demand things, but at times it is a case of shouting for something you'll be getting whilst simultaneously shouting for something you don't really want. We'll get fan representation, but we will need an interim setup to get our head round what's involved and handle the handover period (how many times do each of us fail to get all the shopping, let alone a group of us just take on a football club). We also can't demand 10000 Hours make statements only to round on them the second they do...for no other reason than it only fuels the argument that the Saint Mirren fanbase couldn't run a football club without it becoming a bun fight.

Yup. Very sane and sensible way of looking at this.

Shame Sid's going to come along and rant destructively...

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Guest somner9

Maybe some peoples geographical locus precludes attendance at tomorrow evenings hot air extravaganza.

This is what did it for me so it wiz Quote: "I would be delighted for your further input in what appears to be our agreement in what we both wish to achieve."

What a shocking statement of assumption! "Agreement" shock1.gif

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Maybe some peoples geographical locus precludes attendance at tomorrow evenings hot air extravaganza.

Of course that's an issue, but it's the wee waving smiley that only serves to undermine the many decent points he has made on the subject.

Shame, really.

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Of course that's an issue, but it's the wee waving smiley that only serves to undermine the many decent points he has made on the subject.

Shame, really.

Not being able to attend a meeting can affect pro or anti CIC punters - for any number of reasons. Geography, work, family commitments, anything. The fact remains that the only dissenting voice raised at any of the meetings belonged to Michelle Evans. I didn't agree with her approach, but that's neither here nor there. At least she showed up and spoke.

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Good point on Michelle Poz. I read these threads with interest and can say it took me a wee while to grasp what CIC was all about in the beginning.

There is nothing wrong with fans who don’t want a CIC club. Maybe it is my stupidity but I have not heard one argument as to why any of our fans are actually against a CIC take over.

Why not CIC and what would be better for the club ?

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Why not CIC and what would be better for the club ?

CIC is potentially a great idea.

Unfortunately the original 10000 Hours proposal appeared to put fan governance on the back burner with the corporate funders being in the controlling position. This was the reason for my opposition, hopefully they are going to come up with something which will deliver fan control and one member one vote democracy.

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CIC is potentially a great idea.

Unfortunately the original 10000 Hours proposal appeared to put fan governance on the back burner with the corporate funders being in the controlling position. This was the reason for my opposition, hopefully they are going to come up with something which will deliver fan control and one member one vote democracy.

Moot point as we don't know what will be proposed tomorrow night; however even in the previous model the idea that corporate funders would be in a controlling position doesn't add up. Some of the commercial members are CIC fans, I think almost all of the CIC members were St Mirren fans (still makes me giggle that StuDick got a knock back lol.gif ) and I'd be shocked to my boots if the majority of general members were not St Mirren supporters.

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Moot point as we don't know what will be proposed tomorrow night; however even in the previous model the idea that corporate funders would be in a controlling position doesn't add up. Some of the commercial members are CIC fans, I think almost all of the CIC members were St Mirren fans (still makes me giggle that StuDick got a knock back lol.gif ) and I'd be shocked to my boots if the majority of general members were not St Mirren supporters.

Eh? From who?

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you know fine well he will be referring to the time you were enquiring if 10'000 hours would be able to incorporate an organisation that you were involved in into the CIC. Why rise to it?

As if it weren't bad enough that somner9 lost his mojo...now the panda has lost his evil. tongue.png

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you know fine well he will be referring to the time you were enquiring if 10'000 hours would be able to incorporate an organisation that you were involved in into the CIC. Why rise to it?

There was no knock back from 10000hours though. In fact as far as I know Richard Atkinson is still quite keen to work with the club. If he isn't then he certainly hasn't informed me of this. The rejection, if you can call it that, came from the fact that the majority on our club committee decided that they would rather wait and let someone else be the "guinea pig" before parting with £500.

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There was no knock back from 10000hours though. In fact as far as I know Richard Atkinson is still quite keen to work with the club. If he isn't then he certainly hasn't informed me of this. The rejection, if you can call it that, came from the fact that the majority on our club committee decided that they would rather wait and let someone else be the "guinea pig" before parting with £500.

Sure Stu, Sure. happy.png

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This is what did it for me so it wiz Quote: "I would be delighted for your further input in what appears to be our agreement in what we both wish to achieve."

What a shocking statement of assumption! "Agreement" shock1.gif

I'd say this is agreement with the aims of 10000 hours

Fans governance absolutely!

The disagreement seems to be how to achieve it, yet you knock back a chance to influence how fan governance is achieved and the amount of fan governace there is, all seemingly because the fans weren't consulted first. Surely the important thing is to achieve fan governance and have it properly constituted so we can safeguard the future of the club ? Instead of arguing over the semantics, wouldn't it be better to help build the foundations for a succesful CiC and club ?

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CIC is potentially a great idea.

Unfortunately the original 10000 Hours proposal appeared to put fan governance on the back burner with the corporate funders being in the controlling position. This was the reason for my opposition, hopefully they are going to come up with something which will deliver fan control and one member one vote democracy.

this was also my reason for not subscribing to the cic, i would have my vote at any meeting on any decision but my vote would have to be the same as the corporate members votes if what i wanted to be put through did actually go through, as you would expect different fans have different ideas about how the club should be run and will not be able to outvote the corporate members of any cic, my vote would have been worthless Edited by buddiecat
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this was also my reason for not subscribing to the cic, i would have my vote at any meeting on any decision but my vote would have to be the same as the corporate members votes if what i wanted to be put through did actually go through, as you would expect different fans have different ideas about how the club should be run and will not be able to outvote the corporate members of any cic, my vote would have been worthless

It's strange that you think you couldn't get all St Mirren fans on the CIC to be of similar mind, but you assume that all corporate members would vote as a block.

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