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The 10000Hours Numbers Explained


div

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On the asking price I don't mind the consortium setting it at £2m and being prepared to drop the price a bit if they think the bid is along the right lines for the future of the club. Better than saying selling the club for £1 to Craig Whyte or having a lower asking price on a bid being funded using Ticketus money to raise the readies and then finding the winning bidder has no cash to run the club they now own.

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On the asking price I don't mind the consortium setting it at £2m and being prepared to drop the price a bit if they think the bid is along the right lines for the future of the club. Better than saying selling the club for £1 to Craig Whyte or having a lower asking price on a bid being funded using Ticketus money to raise the readies and then finding the winning bidder has no cash to run the club they now own.

Even better would have been to copy Motherwell and set a fund raising target before agreeing to hand it over for nothing.

Dibble there is no dressing it up. The reason the consortium exists at all is because they want to walk away with a pile of cash in their back pocket. Whether you think the club is worth it or not, or whether you think the consortium five are greedy or just getting what the deserve is a matter of opinion.

Like others when the deal was first proposed I thought the £2m price tag for the 52% shareholding in a business that hasn't generated a profit in the last 17 years was over the top. Today the price doesn't look quite so bad when you consider that at Ibrox there is a growing desperation and that there may soon be a club with potentially massive financial resources looking for a convenient club to buy a controlling stake in, in order to regain SPL status.

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The obligations of 10000Hours will be met by individual and 87club membership subscriptions. None of these subscriptions currently exist so new income meets new obligations as far as I can see. These obligations are nothing to do with the club, same as if I ran out and borrowed £2m to buy the club tomorrow, the obligation is on me to repay that money, not the club.

None of the member benefits to the 87 club will cost the club a penny, in actual fact the reverse is true as some of them will generate additional revenue for the club.

The same will be true for the individual memberships, none of the benefits will cost the football club revenue.

I'm not sure I'd call £250k a cough, something would seriously have gone wrong if the cashflow bump was that big. I daresay that Maxi might be around to smooth it over as they did last year but you are dead right to make the point about cashflow - it is a big concern.

No need to worry Div. Stu and Sid already have this sorted. If we need £30,000 then the cic gives us it (Stu) and it's only a fag packet assessment from a bigot who has supported 1000hrs in the past but just wants to cause trouble.(Sid)

Edited by reborn saint
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No need to worry Div. Stu and Sid already have this sorted. If we need £30,000 then the cic gives us it (Stu) and it's only a fag packet assessment from a bigot who has supported 1000hrs in the past but just wants to cause trouble.(Sid)

I'm glad you understood it Reborn. You are absolutely correct. Once 1000hours is up and trading they will be generating their own revenue streams. REA has already indicated where some of them may come from, including functions and from the void area. Those revenue streams will give 10000hours a reserve of finance that could be drawn upon to smooth short term cash flow issues at Greenhill Road.

I've no idea why others aren't able to understand this but I'm delighted you've finally grasped it.

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I'm glad you understood it Reborn. You are absolutely correct. Once 1000hours is up and trading they will be generating their own revenue streams. REA has already indicated where some of them may come from, including functions and from the void area. Those revenue streams will give 10000hours a reserve of finance that could be drawn upon to smooth short term cash flow issues at Greenhill Road.

I've no idea why others aren't able to understand this but I'm delighted you've finally grasped it.

Like Div??

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Aye. I appreciate your deference to Div - but being a webmaster doesn't make him the fountain of all knowledge....rolleyes.gif

I'd rather stick with Div.....A mod working for the best interests of his club at SMFC.. More in the know than most.... Not privy to all knowlege but does his best. I'll take that anyday over a Motherwell resident who has anger management issues with our current board. 1eye.gif

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I'd rather stick with Div.....A mod working for the best interests of his club at SMFC.. More in the know than most.... Not privy to all knowlege but does his best. I'll take that anyday over a Motherwell resident who has anger management issues with our current board. 1eye.gif

Ah well - good luck to you. I'm certainly not privy to all knowledge either but it really doesn't take a genius to follow that if 10000hours are going to be running revenue raising activities like operating the bar in the void - they are also going to have revenue that can be used to back up the club in the event of short term cash flow issues. There are models in existence all over the fecking place that shows how this works, not least at Spartans, or even in a coffee shop at the Oak Mall.

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I'm glad you understood it Reborn. You are absolutely correct. Once 1000hours is up and trading they will be generating their own revenue streams. REA has already indicated where some of them may come from, including functions and from the void area. Those revenue streams will give 10000hours a reserve of finance that could be drawn upon to smooth short term cash flow issues at Greenhill Road.

I've no idea why others aren't able to understand this but I'm delighted you've finally grasped it.

When and whether 10000Hours has the necessary funding to plug a temporary cashflow issue in the football club is difficult to say without knowing the repayment terms on the "funding gap". If the selling consortium don't need their £750k until the end of year 2 then you are right, 10000Hours will have 2 years of trading before it has to pay any loans off and would have funds available to lend for cash flow bumps.

I doubt that is going to be the case though - there will be payment milestones along the way and although 10000Hours is going to be growing it's own revenue streams that isn't going to happen overnight.

Without really exceeding it's subscription numbers I can't see that 10000Hours is going to be in a position to financially assist the football club for at least a couple of years. Course it all depends how much and for how long. If it's £50k for a few weeks at some point then yes I am sure they will be able to help.

All football clubs hit cashflow bumps, even very well managed ones, as the end-game for football clubs is to break even and to invest as heavily as they can in generating a successful football team on the park.

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When and whether 10000Hours has the necessary funding to plug a temporary cashflow issue in the football club is difficult to say without knowing the repayment terms on the "funding gap". If the selling consortium don't need their £750k until the end of year 2 then you are right, 10000Hours will have 2 years of trading before it has to pay any loans off and would have funds available to lend for cash flow bumps.

I doubt that is going to be the case though - there will be payment milestones along the way and although 10000Hours is going to be growing it's own revenue streams that isn't going to happen overnight.

Without really exceeding it's subscription numbers I can't see that 10000Hours is going to be in a position to financially assist the football club for at least a couple of years. Course it all depends how much and for how long. If it's £50k for a few weeks at some point then yes I am sure they will be able to help.

All football clubs hit cashflow bumps, even very well managed ones, as the end-game for football clubs is to break even and to invest as heavily as they can in generating a successful football team on the park.

Div, we're not talking about 10000hours pumping money into the club. That isn't going to happen. However there will be cash in 10000hours that can be used to cover short term cash flow issues - and REA has already pointed out that 10000hours will be generating revenue from activities outside of member subscriptions. The example he has given relates to the split of income from the supporters bar in the void.

It's been repeatedly stated that 10000hours will not just limit it's business to St Mirren FC. A wee glance along as Spartans will highlight how a CIC will work. Even over there the football club is only just one small division of the overall company.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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When and whether 10000Hours has the necessary funding to plug a temporary cashflow issue in the football club is difficult to say without knowing the repayment terms on the "funding gap". If the selling consortium don't need their £750k until the end of year 2 then you are right, 10000Hours will have 2 years of trading before it has to pay any loans off and would have funds available to lend for cash flow bumps.

I doubt that is going to be the case though - there will be payment milestones along the way and although 10000Hours is going to be growing it's own revenue streams that isn't going to happen overnight.

Without really exceeding it's subscription numbers I can't see that 10000Hours is going to be in a position to financially assist the football club for at least a couple of years. Course it all depends how much and for how long. If it's £50k for a few weeks at some point then yes I am sure they will be able to help.

All football clubs hit cashflow bumps, even very well managed ones, as the end-game for football clubs is to break even and to invest as heavily as they can in generating a successful football team on the park.

Thanks for that div .......Maybe Stu understands now?? Or maybe not1eye.gif

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Thanks for that div .......Maybe Stu understands now?? Or maybe not1eye.gif

What exactly is it do you think I'm not getting? I understand perfectly that 10000hours will not be solely dependent on member subscriptions for income.

Tell me something Reborn, hypothetically, lets say you have a savings account. In there is the money you are saving for a wee holiday later on this year and you've been saving hard like a good wee boy. Suddenly your car develops a fault and the local garage tells you it's going to cost £200 to fix it. Now do you

1) dip into your holiday fund, safe in the knowledge that next pay day you'll be able to pay it back again

or

2) cry your eyes out, phone work and tell them you can't get in cause your car is f**ked and you can't afford to fix it and then spend the rest of the month losing wages while you wait on pay day

or

3) Visit Wonga.com cause even though you've got the money in the bank that's for your holiday and a short term loan on an APR of 4124% makes absolute sense.

To cover short term cash flow issues you do not need clear profit, all you need is working capital. 10000hours will have plenty of that.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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I see reborn dafty has descended into his usual mess. By Friday he will have completely changed his mind again. Its like trying to have a conversation with Mombi from the Wizard of Oz.

div is in fact wrong in his concerns about cashflow. However, there's very little sense in getting into that as it isn't a big issue in terms of what fan ownership will achieve.

St Mirren supporters are a broad church. Different fans look at things from a different perspective. We all support the club for different reasons. We all support the club in different ways. We will all back fan ownership for different reasons.

For some fans it is about securing the future of the club.

For some fans it is about having a say in the running of the club.

For some fans it is about trying to genereate more money for the club.

For some fans it is an opportunity to raise their profile at the club.

For some fans it is a commercial opportunity.

For some fans its a networking opportunity.

For some fans it is about St Mirren being a community club.

For some fans it is about an opportunity to panic like f"k.

For some fans it is an opportunity to play shitey politics as if they don't get enough of that in their day jobs at the cnutcil in between sausage rolls.

The opportunity that fan ownership brings is almost passing most supporters by. The process should be about defining fan ownership and ultimately what we want the club to be, what we want the supporting experience to be, what we want engagement between St Mirren FC and the community to be.

Instead the usual bawbags get bogged down in slabbering a lot of ill informed shite trying to second guess a Board that has taken us from surviving on a month to month basis with the bank ready to send us into the footballing archives - to being the only club in Scotland, in recent history to be investing in its infrastructure....a club with a bright future while seemingly invicible clubs slide into utter chaos.

div like many others has given his ear to cnuts that would do fan ownership harm. There is no risk in this venture. Bizarrely enough the biggest threat (KMG's bizarre efforts aside) is still going to be the scumgers. However, that financial threat will be there irrespective of whether we are successful in fan ownership or not. If the TV income drops we will still have to adjust the business plan accordingly. The wage budget will have to be tailored accordingly. Some staff at the club may lose their jobs. We appear to be under the impression that the BoD will continue to bail us out. Not a very fair on them is it.

Fan ownership will come with responsibilities for the support. Shouldn't we all be putting our hands in our pockets rather that a few individuals who have already done their bit. Worst case sceanrio - no money in the kitty - £100,000.00 cashflow issue for one month hits SMFC. Each fan lumps in £100, which they will get back the next month. Cashflow problem resolved without individuals taking on significant financial risk.

As StuDick rightly points out one of the big wins for fan ownership is the nature of the CIC and its capacity to deliver additional income streams. The only one being factored into the income mix at the moment is the supporters bar. There are more projects available to us. If you look at St Johnstone they are able to manage dropping to the first division with relative ease. That is down to non-match day revenue streams. That is the whole f'k'n point. For us to widen the business and community operations at SMFC via the CIC to help support the club.

The debate yet again follows a very narrow path. The 87 Club gets benefits, but what do the £10-a-month fans get? Clearly another carrot dangled to try and rattle the £10-a-month investors. Surely it becomes brutally obvious what little respect the niggly bawbags have for the St Mirren support.

Back to the point about us all being different. One of my favourite examples is shirt sponsorship. Some businesses sponsor shirts - some might see it as advertising with a view to getting business - I doubt there'll be many. More so there are individuals but more so families investing. What is it that motivates them to give up a chunky enough sum of cash every year. Is it a free f'k'n sausage roll and a shit stained number 6 shirt with Potters name on it...doubt it.

All this hand ringing about what fans will get for their tenner a month, and the OMG cashflow, the club'll end up in cash convertors is a lot of fannytalk.

It's time to get the direct debits sorted, time for the 87 club members to identify themselves and let the 10,000hrs guys know what they want for their money - if anything. I want to secure the club's future through fan ownership - nothing more - I want to keep cnuts like Paul Davies as far away from the club as possible. For me the big bonus is that whilst doing that I will be investing in Renfrewshire beyond just SMFC. So for me its an easy decision to take the investment out of funds I set aside for charity donations.

Everybody will be different, we will all fund our desire to protect the club in different ways and for different reasons. However, the question is a simple one and it has already been answered correctly by over 1000 fans....do you want to secure the long term future of the club through fan ownership?

All the what if bollox has been done to death. Time to move on and start defining what it is we actually want from this, rather than trying to make up shite reasons for it not to happen.

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sisyphus.jpg

Certainly feels like it.

I can understand completely why some fans might not want to complete a DDM and take part in this. What I can't understand is why they find the concept hard to follow. Divs done a great job trying to justify the figures, Sid makes a brilliantly detailed post, REA comes on and explains revenue streams and how cash flow issues can be covered, and when all that is done Reborn Saint comes on to claim Sid is a shit stirring bigot and my views are worthless cause I live in "Motherwell"

I've got a big bruise on my head from banging it off the wall repeatedly. I think I need to back away from the computer now.....:rolleyes:

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Divs done a great job trying to justify the figures, Agreed.

Sid makes a brilliantly detailed post, If you say so...

REA comes on and explains revenue streams and how cash flow issues can be covered, and when all that is done Reborn Saint comes on to claim Sid is a shit stirring bigot Agreed. And I've heard it said that Sid has family interests/investments to support/defend, so it's hard to see his input as independent.

and my views are worthless cause I live in "Motherwell" Hmmmm :rolleyes:

I've got a big bruise on my head from banging it off the wall repeatedly.

Keep it up. :)

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I see reborn dafty has descended into his usual mess. By Friday he will have completely changed his mind again. Its like trying to have a conversation with Mombi from the Wizard of Oz.

div is in fact wrong in his concerns about cashflow. However, there's very little sense in getting into that as it isn't a big issue in terms of what fan ownership will achieve.

St Mirren supporters are a broad church. Different fans look at things from a different perspective. We all support the club for different reasons. We all support the club in different ways. We will all back fan ownership for different reasons.

For some fans it is about securing the future of the club.

For some fans it is about having a say in the running of the club.

For some fans it is about trying to genereate more money for the club.

For some fans it is an opportunity to raise their profile at the club.

For some fans it is a commercial opportunity.

For some fans its a networking opportunity.

For some fans it is about St Mirren being a community club.

For some fans it is about an opportunity to panic like f"k.

For some fans it is an opportunity to play shitey politics as if they don't get enough of that in their day jobs at the cnutcil in between sausage rolls.

The opportunity that fan ownership brings is almost passing most supporters by. The process should be about defining fan ownership and ultimately what we want the club to be, what we want the supporting experience to be, what we want engagement between St Mirren FC and the community to be.

Instead the usual bawbags get bogged down in slabbering a lot of ill informed shite trying to second guess a Board that has taken us from surviving on a month to month basis with the bank ready to send us into the footballing archives - to being the only club in Scotland, in recent history to be investing in its infrastructure....a club with a bright future while seemingly invicible clubs slide into utter chaos.

div like many others has given his ear to cnuts that would do fan ownership harm. There is no risk in this venture. Bizarrely enough the biggest threat (KMG's bizarre efforts aside) is still going to be the scumgers. However, that financial threat will be there irrespective of whether we are successful in fan ownership or not. If the TV income drops we will still have to adjust the business plan accordingly. The wage budget will have to be tailored accordingly. Some staff at the club may lose their jobs. We appear to be under the impression that the BoD will continue to bail us out. Not a very fair on them is it.

Fan ownership will come with responsibilities for the support. Shouldn't we all be putting our hands in our pockets rather that a few individuals who have already done their bit. Worst case sceanrio - no money in the kitty - £100,000.00 cashflow issue for one month hits SMFC. Each fan lumps in £100, which they will get back the next month. Cashflow problem resolved without individuals taking on significant financial risk.

As StuDick rightly points out one of the big wins for fan ownership is the nature of the CIC and its capacity to deliver additional income streams. The only one being factored into the income mix at the moment is the supporters bar. There are more projects available to us. If you look at St Johnstone they are able to manage dropping to the first division with relative ease. That is down to non-match day revenue streams. That is the whole f'k'n point. For us to widen the business and community operations at SMFC via the CIC to help support the club.

The debate yet again follows a very narrow path. The 87 Club gets benefits, but what do the £10-a-month fans get? Clearly another carrot dangled to try and rattle the £10-a-month investors. Surely it becomes brutally obvious what little respect the niggly bawbags have for the St Mirren support.

Back to the point about us all being different. One of my favourite examples is shirt sponsorship. Some businesses sponsor shirts - some might see it as advertising with a view to getting business - I doubt there'll be many. More so there are individuals but more so families investing. What is it that motivates them to give up a chunky enough sum of cash every year. Is it a free f'k'n sausage roll and a shit stained number 6 shirt with Potters name on it...doubt it.

All this hand ringing about what fans will get for their tenner a month, and the OMG cashflow, the club'll end up in cash convertors is a lot of fannytalk.

It's time to get the direct debits sorted, time for the 87 club members to identify themselves and let the 10,000hrs guys know what they want for their money - if anything. I want to secure the club's future through fan ownership - nothing more - I want to keep cnuts like Paul Davies as far away from the club as possible. For me the big bonus is that whilst doing that I will be investing in Renfrewshire beyond just SMFC. So for me its an easy decision to take the investment out of funds I set aside for charity donations.

Everybody will be different, we will all fund our desire to protect the club in different ways and for different reasons. However, the question is a simple one and it has already been answered correctly by over 1000 fans....do you want to secure the long term future of the club through fan ownership?

All the what if bollox has been done to death. Time to move on and start defining what it is we actually want from this, rather than trying to make up shite reasons for it not to happen.

Bawbag1eye.gif

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I'm glad I'm at work. The blood splatter from the cut in my head obtained whilst banging my head off the wall would have been difficult to get out of our luxury carpets at home and my missus might have been slightly annoyed about it. Fortunately the First Aid Nurse here has done a fantastic job of applying the glue to the cut and has put a bandage around my head. I really am going to step away from this thread now......chris.gif (It's not a pirate....it's a picture of me right now)

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I'm glad I'm at work. The blood splatter from the cut in my head obtained whilst banging my head off the wall would have been difficult to get out of our luxury carpets at home and my missus might have been slightly annoyed about it. Fortunately the First Aid Nurse here has done a fantastic job of applying the glue to the cut and has put a bandage around my head. I really am going to step away from this thread now......chris.gif (It's not a pirate....it's a picture of me right now)

No it's a fanny pad you need Stu and leave my friend and best buddy drinking mate Sid out of this conversation as we will be meeting up to talk about the future of our great club in the coming weeks.

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I think your current shareholders mortgage analargy is barmy! just my opinion. But i get the gist about the Void/bar the community partners I presume will recoup their investment (however we define it!) through activity in the bar/void and their use of the stadium. Am I right in suggesting they aren't solely going to be reimbursed by use of the stadium/void alone?

It is still an important factor for me be it the CiC or the Club that from inception via subs/new revenue streams etc, etc much more will have to be found out of activities in and around St Mirren park, and despite how you explain it many will see the two inextricably linked.

final repeat question matchday bar void use? CiC or Club event?

Not sure what you are driving at with the line "am i right in suggesting...." you seem to be suggesting that you know something more about the whole topic than you have been letting on in your questions so far.

However your suggestion is INCORRECT I am not even sure I understand what other way you think exists form the organisations to be reinbursed.

All I can do is explain it, not sure what else I can do if you dont accept the explanation. The vast/vast majorty of the funding to pay back the Social Enterprise based debt comes for the membership subs, with a very small amount budgeted against the actual trading of things like the void, so we believe there is plenty of headroom in the numbers.

You say that "many" will understand it the way you have presented the question is do you now understand it the way I have described it and we will let the "many" others make their minds up?

As for your last question, I repeat again if CIC run CIC money, IF Club Run Club Money if a Bit of Both then a Bit of Both. the specifics of the Bar on a matchday will come down to how it is run. I suspect it will all be CIC initially operated but this could change and develop and in any event that club from Day 1 of the void being avaliable will be able to use it for its own dedicated bookings for the likes of 21st Bday's and music based events etc, which are sometimes not suitable for the main hospitality area.

Convinced Yet?

Edited by 10000hours
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