div Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Apparently anyone can post anything on here and it is taken as 100% gospel truth ! Love it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Apparently anyone can post anything on here and it is taken as 100% gospel truth ! Love it ! yes i do laugh at that myself now and again, people read something on here then instantly believe it, never believe what you read until it's proven is my motto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reborn saint Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 10000hrs are a dead duck and to be honest they killed themselves a long time ago. Failure to engage, apologies etc makes them defunct. What will be will be and SG can sell to a Craig Whyte at anytime he chooses. I don't think he will though and his past record with a director championed on here by many bares this out. I don't think Div should be a cheer leader for REA either as he should be looking at the detail of the bid which dosn't exist for the benifit of the members. This deal is dead as far as I can see and we need someone new to come in to engage the support. Whether they exist or not St Mirren will continue under SG and 10000hrs will be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 Never quite understood what the difference was between The Truth and The Gospel Truth.....well I do now. Will we hear them next season at St Mirren Park as the track list includes The Saints are Coming. http://www.thegospeltruthchoir.com/ "Deep Fried Gospel" is the debut album from Scotland's Gospel Choir - featuring "gospelised" versions of great songs written by Scots songwriters. 1. Mary's Prayer, 2. Here Comes the Rain Again / Small Town Boy, 3. The Saints are Coming / Chance. 4. Mandela Day, 5. 500 Miles, 6. The Other Side of the World, 7. Caledonia, 8. When Will You (Make My Phone Ring), 9. Shake This Mountain, 10. Last Request, 11. Amazing Grace, 12. Ae Fond Kiss (Hi Horo 's na Horo Eile) Track number 3 would suggest they are already signed up for the CIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Timely opportunity I think to look at comparisons in Fan Ownership models. Here's a headline from the 'Well Society' "The club today announced that almost 1,000 members had joined, raising £335,375 so far which smashed the initial target of collecting £250,000 by 31st March 2012." Now that's £335k that sits in the 'society' as a cash reserve for the club. What reserve is envisaged with the 10000 hours CiC (we don't need to call it a co-op anymore as we've establised that was just a blatant attempt at making it look attractive to fans)???? The answer = NONE! given the well society haven't even taken over yet, do you think the offer by 10000 hours compares favourably? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 given the well society haven't even taken over yet, do you think the offer by 10000 hours compares favourably? Motherwell fans aren't being asked to buy their clubs majority shareholding, they are being given it for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Motherwell fans aren't being asked to buy their clubs majority shareholding, they are being given it for free. Motherwell fans aren't being asked to fund the takeover of their club in return for f"k all either though. St Mirren fans are already funding the club through season ticket and other club consumer offers. Now we are being asked to fund a change in directors at SMFC, which includes a new corporate group with governance powers at SMFC. We'll actually be worse off than we are now and paying additional money for the privilege. The CIC structure has descended into a nonsense from the fans perspective and yet the risk to the club is actually increased. Corporate members get all the benefits, transparency and influence at the club. We get to pay for it all for the next ten years - over and above our existing costs as the clubs main funders as its key consumers. There is no benefit to the fans here, there is no return on investment. The club will not be any better protected than it is currently. We are going to have an interim BoD at the club that is controlled by non-St Mirren fans. That is not what we have been getting sold over the last 18 months. What we are seeing is exactly what was predicted by the likes of animal and somner9. No wonder 10000 Hours have been so reluctant to reveal any documented detail to the general support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoWSaint Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Timely opportunity I think to look at comparisons in Fan Ownership models. Here's a headline from the 'Well Society' "The club today announced that almost 1,000 members had joined, raising £335,375 so far which smashed the initial target of collecting £250,000 by 31st March 2012." Now that's £335k that sits in the 'society' as a cash reserve for the club. What reserve is envisaged with the 10000 hours CiC (we don't need to call it a co-op anymore as we've establised that was just a blatant attempt at making it look attractive to fans)???? The answer = NONE! given the well society haven't even taken over yet, do you think the offer by 10000 hours compares favourably? Was there not something in the FAQs about £100,000 cashflow available to cover any club shortfalls? .There is no benefit to the fans here, Yes there is. They get to decide club decisions. .there is no return on investment. This, for me at least, isn't a moneymaking venture. We can happily vote in dividends or returns once the debt is paid off tho. .The club will not be any better protected than it is currently. Yes it will. Who better than the fans to make the decisions and no debt can be secured against the club or its assets. .We are going to have an interim BoD at the club that is controlled by non-St Mirren fans. No we won't. CIC members will be on the interim board. And who's to say that Richard, Gordon, Chris and Tony aren't fans? You should stand for election and get this whole thing running ship shape. I would vote for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 No we won't. CIC members will be on the interim board. That wasn't the case last week BoWSaint when you were saying how wonderful it all was. The fans are the biggest investors in the club and yet we haven't been involved in defining the CIC. The latest concession on the interim BoD is due to some fans that ARE supportive questioning what we are actually getting in return for our investment. We have seen GLS given a permanent place on the BoD by the social funder. We are the bawbags that will be paying back the social funder whom we are being told is demanding two people are permaanent members of the BoD. These jokers are getting their money back with interest. GLS is getting money for his shares. The fans that are paying for all of this to happen are being told what we will and won't get by cnuts that are making money out of our investment. You might want to stick your haed in the sand and ignore that - others won't. I want to see genuine fans representation involved in this. AT the moment it has had to be a concession because some fans are stating they are not happy. It should have been the first thought of an organisation promoting itself as being about fan empowerment. There is still absolutely no information on the FAQs about risk to the club and the numbers of fans / investment required. This will be presented in some format at the June meeting. Why not give it to us now so that we can digest it and have questions prepared for the night. The answer is simple - control of information for the advantage of the presenters. Give us the information now and have a more meaningful meeting. Holding back information until the night of the meeting does not reflect well on the presenters. This is supposed to be about transparency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoWSaint Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 That wasn't the case last week BoWSaint when you were saying how wonderful it all was. But it is the case now. You have won. Enjoy it. It is exactly what you wanted. Fan representation. FWIW, last week there was the option for 2 fans to be on the board. Now there are more seats for basic fans. Well done. The fans are the biggest investors in the club and yet we haven't been involved in defining the CIC. The latest concession on the interim BoD is due to some fans that ARE supportive questioning what we are actually getting in return for our investment. So they have listened to the fans and given them what they want; the scoundrels. We have seen GLS given a permanent place on the BoD by the social funder. We are the bawbags that will be paying back the social funder whom we are being told is demanding two people are permaanent members of the BoD. These jokers are getting their money back with interest. GLS is getting money for his shares. The fans that are paying for all of this to happen are being told what we will and won't get by cnuts that are making money out of our investment. You might want to stick your haed in the sand and ignore that - others won't. Not ignored, accepted and happy with it. Investors getting paid back is completely normal. GLS giving a whole bunch of shares to help push this through and getting money back on them is fine by me if it helps us get started. Do I want anything back from my tenner a month? Nope. It's a means to an end, and not even a bad means. I want to see genuine fans representation involved in this. You will. The CIC will be full of fans and will hold the majority of votes on any decision and can be voted onto the CIC board if they like. That's pretty well represented. AT the moment it has had to be a concession because some fans are stating they are not happy. It should have been the first thought of an organisation promoting itself as being about fan empowerment. Again, you ask, they deliver. What's so bad about them giving you what you want? There is still absolutely no information on the FAQs about risk to the club and the numbers of fans / investment required. There's plenty info. No debt can be secured against the club. Club can only be harmed if 75% of fans choose to harm it. As for numbers. They were explained, with the addition that if we didn't reach the numbers required then a reduced bid would be made based on the number of signed up members to see if the selling consortium would accept. This is supposed to be about transparency. No. It's supposed to be about the fans running the club. Transparency is just a added bonus. Apart from the mystery funder there isn't really anything else that has been held back, and they have a pretty good reason for doing that so I'm happy enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 But it is the case now. You have won. Enjoy it. It is exactly what you wanted. Fan representation. FWIW, last week there was the option for 2 fans to be on the board. Now there are more seats for basic fans. Well done. So they have listened to the fans and given them what they want; the scoundrels. Not ignored, accepted and happy with it. Investors getting paid back is completely normal. GLS giving a whole bunch of shares to help push this through and getting money back on them is fine by me if it helps us get started. Do I want anything back from my tenner a month? Nope. It's a means to an end, and not even a bad means. You will. The CIC will be full of fans and will hold the majority of votes on any decision and can be voted onto the CIC board if they like. That's pretty well represented. Again, you ask, they deliver. What's so bad about them giving you what you want? There's plenty info. No debt can be secured against the club. Club can only be harmed if 75% of fans choose to harm it. As for numbers. They were explained, with the addition that if we didn't reach the numbers required then a reduced bid would be made based on the number of signed up members to see if the selling consortium would accept. No. It's supposed to be about the fans running the club. Transparency is just a added bonus. Apart from the mystery funder there isn't really anything else that has been held back, and they have a pretty good reason for doing that so I'm happy enough. BoWSaint....we do not have that documented. We have all heard the chat, but there is nothing in B&W. Already we have seen an attempt to snake through an interim BoD with no representation. When we see all the stuff we have heard about verbally in writing then ALL fans will be happy - not just the gullible ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 It's nice to have been away for a week and come back to see that Sid is STILL in meltdown mode, Somner still unable to put a good cast against 10000 Hrs and Animal returned with completely inaccurate facts about REA's attendance at matches last season - as well as other poorly communicated drivel! Sid is now the anti-CiCers best hope of winning and even he's really only at the wind-up! Somner and Animal best lay it down to rest, it stands a better chance of failure without your "help". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Sid is now the anti-CiCers best hope of winning and even he's really only at the wind-up! Somner and Animal best lay it down to rest, it stands a better chance of failure without your "help". The CIC is nothing more than an old fashioned 77-style old grammarian bum-in. The sooner the proper fans take control the better. We'll have the pricing back down at a fiver through the gate and the pies will be the same price as aulds. Why would any proper fan in their right mind pay extra money to vote for some old grammarian bawbag to have the privilege to charge us too much money to watch our own club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) The current 10000 Hours FAQ outlines the interim process pretty well, whilst other answers in there point the right way. I've no idea how much winding up is going on in this thread, but I'd suggest yiur starting point should be the FAQ. Everyone will have queries, but why not try moulding from within instead of picking something to waffle about at random. As it stands, the interim process promises 3 elected CIC members on the board and they will be involved in the club board meetings. If that doesnt offer the chance of fan representation then I frankly don't know what will! Edited June 3, 2012 by TsuMirren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Motherwell fans aren't being asked to fund the takeover of their club in return for f"k all either though. St Mirren fans are already funding the club through season ticket and other club consumer offers. Now we are being asked to fund a change in directors at SMFC, which includes a new corporate group with governance powers at SMFC. We'll actually be worse off than we are now and paying additional money for the privilege. The CIC structure has descended into a nonsense from the fans perspective and yet the risk to the club is actually increased. Corporate members get all the benefits, transparency and influence at the club. We get to pay for it all for the next ten years - over and above our existing costs as the clubs main funders as its key consumers. There is no benefit to the fans here, there is no return on investment. The club will not be any better protected than it is currently. We are going to have an interim BoD at the club that is controlled by non-St Mirren fans. That is not what we have been getting sold over the last 18 months. What we are seeing is exactly what was predicted by the likes of animal and somner9. No wonder 10000 Hours have been so reluctant to reveal any documented detail to the general support. You know the real difference between Motherwell and St Mirren Sid? I do. Motherwell fans trust Lee Ann Dempster whilst St Mirren has a number of antagonists who are intent on making their fellow supporters deeply suspicious of everything 10000hours is attempting to do. Motherwell fans have no more say in the running of the club than 10000hours are proposing will happen at St Mirren. They are getting some perks in return for their money but they are having to pay out far more in the initial lump sum but Motherwell fans have grasped the concept and they understand that member ownership is the only secure way forward for their football club. Motherwell fans are clearly more intelligent than St Mirren fans but then I've known that all along, haven't I Sid. Edited June 3, 2012 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 You know the real difference between Motherwell and St Mirren Sid? I do. Motherwell fans trust Lee Ann Dempster whilst St Mirren has a number of antagonists who are intent on making their fellow supporters deeply suspicious of everything 10000hours is attempting to do. Motherwell fans have no more say in the running of the club than 10000hours are proposing will happen at St Mirren. They are getting some perks in return for their money but they are having to pay out far more in the initial lump sum but Motherwell fans have grasped the concept and they understand that member ownership is the only secure way forward for their football club. Motherwell fans are clearly more intelligent than St Mirren fans but then I've known that all along, haven't I Sid. Now your getting there StuDick.....the CIC should be seen for what it is. All the fan ownership stuff is a lot of bollox. However, it does APPEAR to offer a more secure future for the club. However, the FAQs haven't provided any of the numbers in relation to what offer will be made / agreed,etc. I am guessing that information will be provided at the opcoming meeting - why not provide it now so we can have some time to digest it prior to the meeting. I do think you have a very good point regarding trust though. The behaviour of 10000 Hours leans towards not trusting the fans enough to provide them with the details being requested. So if your view is correct, 10000 Hours aren't helping their case. A good example of this was not naming Chris and Brian in their blah, blah about the interim BoD last week. Perhaps they are a bit simple in brain and got kicked in the head by an Ayrshire coo when young and struggle to retain key information. Either way...incompetence bad, trust issues also bad. Plenty of fans have given them their support to progress based on good faith. Now it is time for detailed information on the proposal - in writing - with clarity. As it stands we're getting fed it paragraph by paragraph in sales flyers, press articles and FAQs. I would rather they sat down with fans and produced a best and final offer to fans instead of this trying to get away with the best deal they can for themselves. They should trust us to be fair with them if they are fair with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 You know the real difference between Motherwell and St Mirren Sid? I do. Motherwell fans trust Lee Ann Dempster whilst St Mirren has a number of antagonists who are intent on making their fellow supporters deeply suspicious of everything 10000hours is attempting to do. Motherwell fans have no more say in the running of the club than 10000hours are proposing will happen at St Mirren. They are getting some perks in return for their money but they are having to pay out far more in the initial lump sum but Motherwell fans have grasped the concept and they understand that member ownership is the only secure way forward for their football club. Motherwell fans are clearly more intelligent than St Mirren fans but then I've known that all along, haven't I Sid. I don't care about the Motherwell initiative but 2 years after the chosen started to drop hints on this site, 1 year after 10000hours went public and 3 versions later we've got less than 2 weeks to wait to see if REA & his merry band can limp over the finish line - I would say given their record so far scepticism is very much justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Balfy, Looking at that, they really only haven't produced an agenda and maybe there will be a presentation. The 10000 Hours site does have info and the FAQ has been updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animal Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 It's nice to have been away for a week and come back to see that Sid is STILL in meltdown mode, Somner still unable to put a good cast against 10000 Hrs and Animal returned with completely inaccurate facts about REA's attendance at matches last season - as well as other poorly communicated drivel! Sid is now the anti-CiCers best hope of winning and even he's really only at the wind-up! Somner and Animal best lay it down to rest, it stands a better chance of failure without your "help". I did not return with any "facts". I simply asked how many home games Richard Atkinson attended last season. That seems a reasonable question to ask. If, as he claims, to be genuinly intrested in the the Club that might be a good measure. So KTF can you tell me the answer (or Mr. A if you are watching this). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 Balfy, It's a better start than we've seen from anyone else. How do you propse an interim board should run then? The FAQ states 3 will be elected and that continuity will be there. Many have called for Saint Mirren people to be involved and we have that. They've demanded structure and we have that. We're left with one obvious option after Ken's faux pas and I feel we should support it. I'll even go as far as to say SMISA should support it publically, but I suppose we'll need to see the level of cross examination on Thursday to gauge where that all sits. The ine thing I do know is that I'm one kf the few here to have been there before with fan ownership and this looks a lot better and a lot more sustainable than MYFC ever was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Now your getting there StuDick.....the CIC should be seen for what it is. All the fan ownership stuff is a lot of bollox. However, it does APPEAR to offer a more secure future for the club. However, the FAQs haven't provided any of the numbers in relation to what offer will be made / agreed,etc. I am guessing that information will be provided at the opcoming meeting - why not provide it now so we can have some time to digest it prior to the meeting. I do think you have a very good point regarding trust though. The behaviour of 10000 Hours leans towards not trusting the fans enough to provide them with the details being requested. So if your view is correct, 10000 Hours aren't helping their case. A good example of this was not naming Chris and Brian in their blah, blah about the interim BoD last week. Perhaps they are a bit simple in brain and got kicked in the head by an Ayrshire coo when young and struggle to retain key information. Either way...incompetence bad, trust issues also bad. Plenty of fans have given them their support to progress based on good faith. Now it is time for detailed information on the proposal - in writing - with clarity. As it stands we're getting fed it paragraph by paragraph in sales flyers, press articles and FAQs. I would rather they sat down with fans and produced a best and final offer to fans instead of this trying to get away with the best deal they can for themselves. They should trust us to be fair with them if they are fair with us. Sid - in the late 90's Stewart Gilmour produced marketing literature promoting his share floatation to the St Mirren fans. Included in that package was a suggestion that fans borrow the money to buy £250 worth of shares at a ridiculous rate of interest, even at that time. Compare his proposal to the 10000hours on today and there's no doubt that what is on the table today is more attractive, more sustainable, more secure, and it offers far better value for money than what was put before the fans back then. There is a trust issue, but from where I am looking the issue is that *SOME* St Mirren supporters will only trust someone at their club if they have proof* they emerged from a vagina somewhere in the PA1 postcode area to be immediately draped in a black and white scarf whilst the umbilical chord was still attached. *Proof should be preferably in VHS video format however for older members of the support photographic proof will be accepted so long as they can also show the anal scars that came from a school life at Paisley Grammar - see Animals post above for an appropriate example. Edited June 3, 2012 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) I did not return with any "facts". I simply asked how many home games Richard Atkinson attended last season. That seems a reasonable question to ask. If, as he claims, to be genuinly intrested in the the Club that might be a good measure. So KTF can you tell me the answer (or Mr. A if you are watching this). You gave options, suggesting multiple choice - as if you were in the know. As you first offered those options, you tell me - where did you get your info that he had been at a maximum of 3 matches all season? Again though, this is just a smoke screen. The co-op is about the fans. The diddies who are dead set on making it about REA or otherwise are grossly mislead. I have signed up to the co-op and I was at every home match (bar one) last season - that is just as important. If anyone has a semi-reasonable point about the issues fan ownership/governance now faces, it's Sid... The problems that exist are a lack of current common or garden fan involvement and a derth of info that has been put into the public domain. The issue certainly isn't how many matches one of the CiC members attended last season. Of course, even Sid knows he's ripping the piss going on to the extent he is about his perceived issues. It's a brilliant irony that the best possible chance there is of 10000 Hrs failing is fronted by someone who is a signed up member and who is half joking about the complaints he has. Edited June 4, 2012 by ktf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mc Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Decent article about the CIC in today's Herald http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/st-mirren-director-hopes-supporters-see-bigger-picture-despite-sketchy-details.17775460 I have signed up after a lot of thought. Fingers tightly crossed for the CIC to go ahead on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Certainly a good read, the 1877 club is possibly the best way to organise the 48% and define how their representation is elected. Just as with GLS, there were calls to involve the 48% and make it meanungful to be in thst group...that happens and people complain because it doesn't match their vision, a vision which they haven't taken past fag packet scribbling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Look at the usual suspects all trying to discredit the bold St Sid. Never saw them do that when I was posting from a pro-CIC perspective. For the avoidance of doubt I am not the only St Mirren supporter that has these concerns - http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.uk/renfrewshire-sport/renfrewshire-football/renfrewshire-football-st-mirren/2012/06/02/saints-group-warn-supports-on-takeover-87085-31095370/ I would be very wary of anything you see in The Herald for the same reason that you should be wary of people like GLS who have negotiated their own "position" in the CIC whilst completely ignoring genuine fan involvement. The CIC can still be viewed from a positive perspective. The non-exec members board could be seen as positive. It is "successful businessmen" getting involved with the CIC. That may bring some skills to the club. However if you are a rank and file fan how much is that going to benefit you? More commercially minded wankers sitting together in a room with all the power at SMFC discussing hom they can maximise the revenues from St Mirren consumers who are - the rank and file support. In order to facilitate the a group conspiring to fleece us out of even more money - first thing we got from them was - why not increase your monthly payments and get f"k all extra in return....complete exploitation of fans yet again.....at the same time they were negotiating hugely increased influence at the club for a lower investement. That is the way decision making will happen at the club. Commercialism first - fans paying for it. The CIC is built on corporate bawbags getting all the advantages and fans paying for it. No one but the fans are going to be out of pocket in this takeover. So why are the fans still being MANAGED by the corporate bawbags and not the other way around. Fans couldn't have been placed any further away from the decision making processes than if a corproate-minded bawbag had sat down and thought to themselves - "how can we get lots of cash from fans whilst keeping them as far away from the decision making process as possible". 10000 Hours had the opportunity to produce a model that delivered genuine fan ownership. They chose to try and get away with as much as they possibly could for the maximum they could get from the fans. I don't see any sign of any genuine intent at delivering fan ownership here. What I am seeing is an attempt to deliver commercial ownership of a club through fans money. 10000 Hours have waited until the last minute to bring fans up to speed on their proposals holding back key information such as the GLS - permanent member of the SMFC Board / creation of a non-exec Board. I would have left my direct debit in; however I will not be completing the new direct debit until we get an explanation of the abject lack of engagement with fans and the with-holding of key information until the last possible moment. Fans are being played and that does not bode well for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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