TsuMirren Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Where are you getting the whole GLS being a permanent board member thing from? Is it factual or some twisty turny spin for your own amusement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Where are you getting the whole GLS being a permanent board member thing from? Is it factual or some twisty turny spin for your own amusement? It was in the FAQ.....GLS to remain on the BoD until the social funders decide otherwise. His directorship extends beyond the election. "The only positions that will not be up for election at the first AGM will be that of Richard Atkinson and Gordon Scott who, for reasons of continuity at the request of the external funder, will stay in place until the funders have comfort with the full CIC board." That FAQ response is so poorly written it is difficult to give it any credence to be fair. However, the above statement seems pretty clear. At what point are we going to get to meet the social funder that is going to be dictating how SMFC will be run? Fan empowerment - my arse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 So no mention of permanent then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 So no mention of permanent then. TsuMirren.....so long as an outside party can dictate who long it lasts for and fans have no say in it, then that is permanent from a fans perspective.....it is not fan empowerment.....fans pay £1.7M that includes repaying a loan + interest to the social funder who is deciding who is going to be on the BoD and for how long. Can you no see the irony on this being pitched as fan empowerment. Fans pay all the money and they aren't even involved in the f'k'n thing beyond paying the money. Mon ti f"k TsuMirren....you cannae see the wood fae the trees in your desire to shag a squirrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Decent article about the CIC in today's Herald http://www.heraldsco...etails.17775460 I have signed up after a lot of thought. The Herald's photo archive of snaps of St Mirren fans must be threadbare. The saints kit being worn by fans in the photo accompanying the CIC article is the 1999/2000 CETCO top, the photo itself is probably one of those taken from the Town Hall during the promotion-winning celebrations. Slightly ironically, given that the article refers to SMISA's opposition to the CIC proposal, a young(er) Wullie Bell is prominent near the front of the crowd in the photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Look at the usual suspects all trying to discredit the bold St Sid. Never saw them do that when I was posting from a pro-CIC perspective. For the avoidance of doubt I am not the only St Mirren supporter that has these concerns - http://www.paisleyda...87085-31095370/ I guess you aren't talking about me Sid. First off I'm not trying to discredit you - I've said repeatedly that I back your calls for more information. Secondly you and I had a very long tussle back at the start of all this when we argued about community involvement - me saying it was a very positive thing to have as much of the local and wider community involved, and you not quite so happy about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoWSaint Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Trying to include the fans from the very beginning would be pretty difficult and would result in bedlam because none of the fans had actually made any commitment at all, they just filled out a form on a website to receive emails. Do you really expect 10000hrs to let these non-members make seriously important decisions? Until direct debit mandates have been received and fans are actually commited, then the offer to purchase can go ahead and then the direct debits can be started and the actual members can start to vote and have their say. The fan empowerment starts once the takeover is complete and I for one am glad that we have people like RA sorting everything out for us and arranging the interim plans until our first AGM where we can tweak any changes that we think might need to be made because at this time the fans will have the power. You say that the commercials guys will have all the power but that completely goes against the OMOV principle and this nonsense about getting one vote every 3 years is also nonsense. Have as many votes as you want about whatever you want. I am glad that they didn't allow all the pledgers of last year make these important decisions because it could quite easily have involved 1000 Rangers fans intentionally fcuking us over for a laugh for the mere cost of filling out an email address on a website. Not many of that 1000 would want to go to the length of subscibing to a £10/month DD to screw us over. By not allowing "fans" to make all the decisions from the start 10000hrs have protected the club and the CIC takeover. The interim plans and BoD seem fine by me and if you have a problem with who is allowed on the BoD or for how long then join up and get it changed! I'm sure the members will be more than happy to listen to proposals that will allow the CIC to run in a smoother, more efficient way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I guess you aren't talking about me Sid. First off I'm not trying to discredit you - I've said repeatedly that I back your calls for more information. Secondly you and I had a very long tussle back at the start of all this when we argued about community involvement - me saying it was a very positive thing to have as much of the local and wider community involved, and you not quite so happy about it. Not at all.....one of the big wins in this for me was the inclusion of community values. They have disappeared now. The only goal for 10000 Hours is now getting the cash in play to carry out the initial transaction - 100% of which + interest it to be paid back by the rank and file. This now appears to be nothing more than a power grab for everyone but the fans to actually get any benefit from it. I can't remember the last time we heard 10000 Hours mention the community other than as a sound bite in the marketing blah, blah....no detail, no examples - just 'Mon the community....St Mirren fan gies yer cash! The only additional detail / effort that appears to have gone into this in the last upteen months appears to be in relation to the commercial / corporate benefits & empowerment. The fans and the community are nothing more than bit part players now - the achilles heel in the commercial / corporate takeover is that the fans are required to fund it as the corporate / commercial bawbags don't have the brass balls to back their own plan with their own cash. The level of fan involvement is akin to that which I would expect if fans were being asked to put money into the club after someone who had bought it with their own money wanted to rasie some addition funds to invest in the club. What we are getting is someone taking over the club with no additional investment availabel to improve the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Trying to include the fans from the very beginning would be pretty difficult and would result in bedlam because none of the fans had actually made any commitment at all, they just filled out a form on a website to receive emails. Do you really expect 10000hrs to let these non-members make seriously important decisions? Until direct debit mandates have been received and fans are actually commited, then the offer to purchase can go ahead and then the direct debits can be started and the actual members can start to vote and have their say. The fan empowerment starts once the takeover is complete and I for one am glad that we have people like RA sorting everything out for us and arranging the interim plans until our first AGM where we can tweak any changes that we think might need to be made because at this time the fans will have the power. You say that the commercials guys will have all the power but that completely goes against the OMOV principle and this nonsense about getting one vote every 3 years is also nonsense. Have as many votes as you want about whatever you want. I am glad that they didn't allow all the pledgers of last year make these important decisions because it could quite easily have involved 1000 Rangers fans intentionally fcuking us over for a laugh for the mere cost of filling out an email address on a website. Not many of that 1000 would want to go to the length of subscibing to a £10/month DD to screw us over. By not allowing "fans" to make all the decisions from the start 10000hrs have protected the club and the CIC takeover. The interim plans and BoD seem fine by me and if you have a problem with who is allowed on the BoD or for how long then join up and get it changed! I'm sure the members will be more than happy to listen to proposals that will allow the CIC to run in a smoother, more efficient way. How are you supposed to suggest improvements when you haven't been given the current plan? The constitution still states that the BoD will serve for three years. That is what you are signing up to. Once the transaction is completed you are pretty much f"k'd. The transaction will be completed before the constitution is even properly presented for our review never mind any genuine discussion has taken place to ratify it and finally agree that the organisation is a legal entity. The constitution is STILL in direct conflict with what we are being provided as a process in the FAQs. The CIC / SMFC structure is a shambles at the moment - either that or a closely guarded secrect - neither is good form to place a bet on the future of our club. Stop backing fairy stories and start asking for the details we need to assess this properly. If the plan isn';t there yet then the last thing we should be doing is committing to £1.7M of debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You keep failing to add draft when talking about the constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 St.Sid, is it because you ain't been offered the President's post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 St.Sid, is it because you ain't been offered the President's post. This, with bells on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Mirren Till I Die Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) im still not convinced with this. i just dont think there is enough financial backing and basically dont think it will work out. Edited June 4, 2012 by St.Mirren Till I Die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You keep failing to add draft when talking about the constitution. That's exactly the point I am making TsuMirren. So far we've seen 10000 Hours change the structure of the interim BoD and bring the election forward at least six months in the space of a few days. All well and good; however, there is nothing binding in that - all they have done is published an FAQ response on a web site. By the same token they have explained a process for a fans vote that is not reflected in the one document that could be viewed as meaningful in this. The only document that relates to the fans relationship with 10000 Hours is a direct debit mandate for them to take money out of your bank acount for 12 months. There is absolutely no mention of what fans get in return for that. They could take £120 of you, deliver nothing and there would be nothing you could do about it - never mind the fine detail of how the CIC will actually work. When you buy a season ticket the agreement is that you will get to watch home games for a season.....when you fill out this direct debit form you give away £120 in the hope that you will get a vote at some point in the future that will be defined by 10000 Hours - who are not the fans, no matter how much you are told that. There is no formal offer at the moment in return for the fans commitment of hard cash. Just a lot of shifting sand blah, blah. We need to know exactly what it is we are signing up to. If 10000 Hours can't produce that, then it sends like they don't know what they are doing either. Either they don't know what they are doing, or they don't want to provide detailed information on what they are doing. I am still supportive of what they are doing; however I also believe we should take SMiSA's advice and be absolutely sure of what is actually going on. I have yet to see a post on here that is anything more than a statement of support, rather than a statement of fact about what the CIC is going to deliver and exactly how much risk is involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You have lost me here Sid as you were well up for fan ownership but are now having reservations ? I'm not interested in the politicos of the club All I want to see is our club being run as best it can with people who love the club as much as I do. The direct debt form has been refilled in with a £20.00 a month debit as I can afford that at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoWSaint Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 they don't know what they are doing I am still supportive of what they are doing You are running round in circles. Trying to decipher what you actually want here is harder than trying to understand what the CIC are doing. You are being even more vague than anyone at 10000hrs about this magical document that will ease your mind. Print out the FAQs, staple them together, write "Sid's magic document" at the top and rest your sphincter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You have lost me here Sid as you were well up for fan ownership but are now having reservations ? I'm not interested in the politicos of the club All I want to see is our club being run as best it can with people who love the club as much as I do. The direct debt form has been refilled in with a £20.00 a month debit as I can afford that at this time. I doubt many rank and file fans if any want to get involved in the politicos of the club LS. That will be for the corporate bawbags, who have clearly been doing quite a bit of last over the last 18 months. All fans really want is for the club to be in safe hands. At the moment it has not been proven that the CIC provides the safe pair of hands that we all want. Early in this process we all took some comfort in the fact that SMiSA were involved. At that point they appeared to have more visibility than any of us. I even cited them as a defence of the CIC on here back then. Now we have SMiSA who have been involved in reviewing the structure of the CIC / SMFC in more detail than most fans will have had the opportunity to explore. They are now advising that we do what they have done and review the documents available. Only we are not getting to see any of the available documents. We will get another sales pitch and will be ask sign or don't sign. That in my opinion is not the behaviour of people who have confidence in what they are offering. I doubt very much whether people in SMiSA are asking us to look closer at the detail for nothing. There are some fairly high profile rank and file Saints fans involved in SMiSA. I think it would be remiss of us to ignore them completely, especially when we are not being provided with the detail that has been provided to them. I am not saying don't back the CIC. I am saying let's take a really close look at the detail of the CIC. The finances, the risk, the seurity of the club....we've all heard the sales pitch to death. So far no pro-CIC supporter has produced a list of facts that we can even begin to discuss. It is not their fault that they cannot produce the detail. I am starting to wonder if any detail actually exists and whether this is all just a finance exercise with the fans "donations" being the critical factor. I really don't see anything beyond that for fans to latch onto - to be able to say....this is going to be good for the club and good for the fans. All I can see is the benefits to other people that are not actually putting any money into it. The fans are committing to genrate £1.7Million + some interest over at least ten years. Not of that money is going into SMFC...it is being used to pay off the consortium, GLS and the social funder.....I don't see what that does for the supporting experience of the rank and file fan, nor does it secure the long term future of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 There are documents available, but fair enough not all the figures. I dont think anyone expects to see the full projected figures published online so that leaves the how and when? The FAQ gives enough to start people asking questions, whilst the involvement of Gordon and Tony should have fans feeling supportive of it all. Read the FAQ, the black & white in there should overwrite what's missing in tne draft constitution...fair enough it doesn't dot every i. After takeover, the interim period can be used to construct this as the overall mood wishes and those who wish to can commit the time needed to do so. With regards to Thursday, I'd just advise anyone to have their questions ready and sit with an open mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You are running round in circles. Trying to decipher what you actually want here is harder than trying to understand what the CIC are doing. You are being even more vague than anyone at 10000hrs about this magical document that will ease your mind. Print out the FAQs, staple them together, write "Sid's magic document" at the top and rest your sphincter. That is completely redundant though BoWSaint. I am not the one asking St Mirrens to fund a £1.7Million debt to pay varying sums to the consortium, GLS, social funders....and then there's the corporate bawbags that are walking into power at SMFC for just £25K. There is no information. You were talking about 10000 Hours not providing the opportunity for fans to get involved in defining how the CIC works. Here's a funnier scenario for you.....a group will take ownership of the majority shareholding of SMFC. The CIC will not be a legal entity at this stage. Until the CIC becomes a legal entity, which will be a process controlled by the interim BoD......St Mirren could be sold off by the interim BoD who will have full control of the club during this phase. There is no legal protection against this that has been presented to us. Now I know that the likelyhood of that happening is zero - I hope!....but neither you or I know that to be the case. You might be happy with a few hundred work FAQ response that doesn't even make sense. I'm not and it would appear that SMISA who have seen more detail are not happy with the detail they have seen. There is absolutely no sense in this being rushed through. If 10000 Hours are not prepared to show us the detail, then we will be stuck with seeing whatever level of detail they chose to provide us with at the meeting. I would recommend that we ALL ask for copies of the information provided at the meeting along with written responses to all the concerns raised and detail requested. After that I would like to see a meeting led by SMiSA for the fans to discuss the detail. That for me would be a fair process and allow us to make absolutely sure that we are signing up to something real rather than the current void of information. The biggest risk to the CIC will be reborn saint types who sign up and then drop out when it doesn't deliver what they thought is was going to be. I would have expected one of the first FAQs to be published would have been the response to SMISA's question at the last public meeting regarding the implication of the CIC going into administration and potential sanctions the SPL could take against the club. This is in conflict with the much pitched view that the debt the fans will be entirely responsible for paying for will not have any impact on the club if anything should go wrong with the CIC. I find the soundbites around that all a bit vague....the "draft" constitution doesn't tackle how the club is protected. It only talks about the responsibilities within the CIC. We also haven't seen any detail about how the GLS / consortium financial complexities are being managed. What are the terms and conditions of these arrangements. You can bet your bawz thye will not be based on gentleman's agreements. They will be written into a legally binding agreement - what are the terms and conditions of those agreements - what are the implications if the CIC is no longer generating enough money to make the pay-offs. The blah, blah we are getting is that we shouldn't worry about as we're all St Mirren fans. I disagree, we should be getting visibility of every aspect of the commitment we are making with the clubs future. The fans are being asked to sign up to this on faith and trust......in return we're getting zero trust by return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenburn ed Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Apparently anyone can post anything on here and it is taken as 100% gospel truth ! Love it ! You should know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 There are documents available........... There are no documents available. There's some sales flyers and a shit draft constitution that couldn't be more unfavourable to fans if Reg Brearely had written it. SMISA have set us the challange rightly to review all of the information relating to the CIC / SMFC. There isn't any available. We have hee-haw to base our questions on as all we really have is a gooey feeling about fan ownership and the long term future of the club. We all want a bigger say in the running of the club for fans, we all want to secure the long term future of the club. That is the end product that we all desire. What we haven't actually seen is any detail of the product we are being told will deliver it. I defy anyone to back the view that information and communication on this has been anything other than woeful. We are now being given a deadline to decide whether to allow this to happen - f"k the tenner a month...I pish more than that after a business lunch......we need to take a cold hard look at the £1.7Million debt that fans are committing to fund and what this actually delivers. I am not saying tear up your direct debits. All I am saying is let's show the same trust for SMiSA as we are showing for 10000 Hours and look into what they are saying. I doubt for the life of me that a group setup to help save the club when we were right in the shitter are trying to do anything that would harm the club. They clearly have some concerns and I believe that they should be respected as fellow St Mirren fans that have already put their money were their mouth is to support the club through difficult times. If the CIC does hit the shitter and the club is put to risk, you can bet your arse that the SMISA guys will be the first ones to step up to try and help. If the CIC is the best way forward then the consortium will be happy to allow the fans time to carry out their due dilligence. If they try and force it through then something is clearly amiss. There should be no pressure on fans to sign up by a specific date. That in itself smells of all sort of shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Look at the usual suspects all trying to discredit the bold St Sid. Never saw them do that when I was posting from a pro-CIC perspective. For the avoidance of doubt I am not the only St Mirren supporter that has these concerns - http://www.paisleyda...87085-31095370/ I would be very wary of anything you see in The Herald for the same reason that you should be wary of people like GLS who have negotiated their own "position" in the CIC whilst completely ignoring genuine fan involvement. The CIC can still be viewed from a positive perspective. The non-exec members board could be seen as positive. It is "successful businessmen" getting involved with the CIC. That may bring some skills to the club. However if you are a rank and file fan how much is that going to benefit you? More commercially minded wankers sitting together in a room with all the power at SMFC discussing hom they can maximise the revenues from St Mirren consumers who are - the rank and file support. In order to facilitate the a group conspiring to fleece us out of even more money - first thing we got from them was - why not increase your monthly payments and get f"k all extra in return....complete exploitation of fans yet again.....at the same time they were negotiating hugely increased influence at the club for a lower investement. That is the way decision making will happen at the club. Commercialism first - fans paying for it. The CIC is built on corporate bawbags getting all the advantages and fans paying for it. No one but the fans are going to be out of pocket in this takeover. So why are the fans still being MANAGED by the corporate bawbags and not the other way around. Fans couldn't have been placed any further away from the decision making processes than if a corproate-minded bawbag had sat down and thought to themselves - "how can we get lots of cash from fans whilst keeping them as far away from the decision making process as possible". 10000 Hours had the opportunity to produce a model that delivered genuine fan ownership. They chose to try and get away with as much as they possibly could for the maximum they could get from the fans. I don't see any sign of any genuine intent at delivering fan ownership here. What I am seeing is an attempt to deliver commercial ownership of a club through fans money. 10000 Hours have waited until the last minute to bring fans up to speed on their proposals holding back key information such as the GLS - permanent member of the SMFC Board / creation of a non-exec Board. I would have left my direct debit in; however I will not be completing the new direct debit until we get an explanation of the abject lack of engagement with fans and the with-holding of key information until the last possible moment. Fans are being played and that does not bode well for the future. I don't think the usual suspects are trying to discredit you at all sid , i think they are insulting the intelligence of all of us with their contrived posts and the loaded article in the herald ( FFS it looked like a question and answer session made up from all the posts on here), decisions have been made already on the way the cic will be run, fans are being treated with contempt, BoW saint said there would have been bedlam if it was put to the pledgers , this is one thing i have agreed with since day one, i wondered how hundreds of fans would be able to be brought together and where that could be (how many fans can be accommodated at a meeting in SMP) and also came to the conclusion that any meeting would be bedlam given that we can hardly agree to disagree with each other on here. Now i know the answer to my question - it doesn't matter as the decisions already made exclude pledgers, and it will take 75% of cic members to agree on a proposal before it gets anywhere near the next stage, would 75% be able to get into a meeting at SMP and indeed would 75% be able to or be bothered to attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 The only document that relates to the fans relationship with 10000 Hours is a direct debit mandate for them to take money out of your bank acount for 12 months. There is absolutely no mention of what fans get in return for that. They could take £120 of you, deliver nothing and there would be nothing you could do about it Except for cancel your direct debit Sid, Richard is in this because getting something of this scale to work will boost his and the Maxi Groups credibility within the Social Enterprise Sector. Something which is going to be worth £hundreds of millions, if not much much more to the construction industry in the coming years. If he tries is and fails well it's not a bad result. They came close, gained experience but the St Mirren fans were too stupid to get it. His reputation is intact. If he delivers and then a couple of months later the whole thing collapses because he loses member support his credibility is down the toilet and a Social Funder is left picking up the pieces knowing it will never get involved with Richard Atkinson or the Maxi Group ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Why would all the members need to be in SMP to vote on a proposal? The fact you're posting on a forum should point to that not being the case. As for documents being available, maybe John's need is greater than mine. There's enough there for me just now, I can ask questions on Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 There are no documents available. There's some sales flyers and a shit draft constitution that couldn't be more unfavourable to fans if Reg Brearely had written it. SMISA have set us the challange rightly to review all of the information relating to the CIC / SMFC. There isn't any available. We have hee-haw to base our questions on as all we really have is a gooey feeling about fan ownership and the long term future of the club. We all want a bigger say in the running of the club for fans, we all want to secure the long term future of the club. That is the end product that we all desire. What we haven't actually seen is any detail of the product we are being told will deliver it. I defy anyone to back the view that information and communication on this has been anything other than woeful. We are now being given a deadline to decide whether to allow this to happen - f"k the tenner a month...I pish more than that after a business lunch......we need to take a cold hard look at the £1.7Million debt that fans are committing to fund and what this actually delivers. I am not saying tear up your direct debits. All I am saying is let's show the same trust for SMiSA as we are showing for 10000 Hours and look into what they are saying. I doubt for the life of me that a group setup to help save the club when we were right in the shitter are trying to do anything that would harm the club. They clearly have some concerns and I believe that they should be respected as fellow St Mirren fans that have already put their money were their mouth is to support the club through difficult times. If the CIC does hit the shitter and the club is put to risk, you can bet your arse that the SMISA guys will be the first ones to step up to try and help. If the CIC is the best way forward then the consortium will be happy to allow the fans time to carry out their due dilligence. If they try and force it through then something is clearly amiss. There should be no pressure on fans to sign up by a specific date. That in itself smells of all sort of shite. well said sid , SMISA have only the interests of the club/support as their reason for being and i would tend to think that if they have issues with the set up then i will go with their decision and if the shit hits the fan i will lend my support to them, not to something i don't believe is workable from a tenner pledgers point of view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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