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The Day Fan Ownership Died!


Guest somner9

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I'll sign hee-haw until further information is provided, and any fan that cares about the club, its community, its fans - all of the fans (even SPS) - should take the same view.

From a brilliant post earlier to one of the worst you have ever made on here.

Ranting and raving about potential season ticket boycotts on one thread and outraged that some fans would "encourage" others not to renew (when there wasn't one post doing so) to this post above, where you are clearly inciting fans not to sign up to be part of fan ownership and governance and claiming that if they do they are not real fans and don't care about the community or the club.

Downright f**king shameful, John. Hypocritical, brazen-faced and shameful.

You may feel like you need more info.

You may believe that 10,000 Hours are up to something sneaky

You might think that the whole thing is an elaborate way for REA to own the club at our expense

You might have spat the dummy out cos you weren't invited to a bum-in

You may have been left out of a piece of information

You may think you have been misled

That is no reason for you to encourage honest, smart and SMFC-loving fans not sign-up. You are deliberately trying to hurt the club, the town and the fans. And, unlike those not renewing their season tickets, your crusade to not get people to sign up to the CiC will hurt the long term future of the club - not just for one season but possibly forever. To use your own expression against you, it is bawbaggery of the highest possible order.

If people truly care about the club (and/or the town) and can afford, by hook or by crook, £10 per month, then they should be signing up for this. Every bit of uncertainty will be able to ironed out at a later date.

It is abhorrent that Sid is trying to encourage people not to sign up, deliberately trying to hurt the future of the club.

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no because the interim board are not in place as yet, what i am saying is - i agree with sid that certain people seem to be working together to discredit what he and other people are saying rather than just letting them get on with it, i may be wrong and he may be wrong but it seems to me that it is those who are pledging for commercial reasons of their own who are doing the discrediting because they see him as a threat to them getting their cake, and then i'm going on to agree with bow saint in the fact that bedlam would ensue in the way you describe, this is why i was and still am against pledging, the whole thing has changed since the beginnings so i thought i'd have another look at it, but i'm against for even more reasons now. so probably should not be posting on the subject i will leave it for now and simply read the posts, as i am contributing nothing that in any way will help the club. i'll just support as i always do by continuing to be a season ticket holder that way i know where my money will go - it will be paid directly to the club and not servicing a debt that helps commercial organisations promote their wares, incidentally on your question about SMISA i believe they pulled out as they can see a risk to the club ( along the lines of the new financial proposals from the spl) if the cic go bust and as parent company of smfc this would involve the club being subject to sanctions, and they do not wish to be part of any risk to the club, being as they are set up to help the club, just my view of it though

Fair enough.

You have surmised why you think SMISA have acted the way they have. SMISA should tell us all EXACTLY why they have withdrew their support. You have to ask...Why the secrecy and were their members consulted about this decision?

I have re-confirmed my DD and I look forward to perhaps influencing the future running of our Club, as a fan, as best I can. All for the price of 30 cigarettes (or 3 pints) a month.

I'll start by listening to (and asking) a few questions at the meeting on Thursday night. You coming along? It might be informing/interesting.

i feel i should know you dick - especially since you seem to know colin, so who are you ?

oh right thats how colin knows you, i only knew the name of the boring one

I don't know Dick either Peter, but I supect he is the same Bud who uses question marks at the end of almost every sentence... whom you should know!

Anyway, who is Somner?

Edited by Vambo57
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Fair enough.

You have surmised why you think SMISA have acted the way they have. SMISA should tell us all EXACTLY why they have withdrew their support. You have to ask...Why the secrecy and were their members consulted about this decision?

I have re-confirmed my DD and I look forward to perhaps influencing the future running of our Club, as a fan, as best I can. All for the price of 30 cigarettes (or 3 pints) a month.

I'll start by listening to (and asking) a few questions at the meeting on Thursday night. You coming along? It might be informing/interesting.

I don't know Dick either Peter, but I supect he is the same Bud who uses question marks at the end of almost every sentence... whom you should know!

Anyway, who is Somner?

No! Which is ironic, as some of thier complaint seems to be that there is too little fan/membership involvement.

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Until SMISA give us a document clearly stating their concerns, how this will actually not work, and not some vague non-statement then everyone should sign up to 10000hrs. We don't have a single fact from SMISA, just heresay and speculation and nothing of substance. Where's their transparency with the fans. blah blah blah. zzzzzzzzzzzz

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Guest somner9

And if the selling consortium sell the club to a private bidder who then in turn pushes the club heavily into debt to repay their borrowing what then for "our" club ?

The football club is currently in rude health (save the meltdown that is happening in the SPL around about it which it cannot control). This is an unbelievable chance for the fans to safeguard that health and the assets that the outgoing board have delivered by taking ownership of the healthy club and ensuring it remains healthy.

The risks of passing it over to a third party consortium are very real and any attempt to downplay that threat is a nonsense. Once the cheque is signed and the shares are passed over any due diligence that SG and co have done will be utterly worthless.

Why do you think the selling consortium want to sell to the fans so badly ? Why have they rejected higher offers from other bidders over the past two years ?

Simple question, we've established despite what it's been tagged that this is not a Co-operative. But a form of fan ownership? (correct me if i'm wrong)

Why then were the fans the last to be involved, and the group with the least information?

I suppose this question is only pertinent if we really are discussing fan ownership and not a cobbled together bid that sees all the major decision making already done, and all the positions of power and influence nicely tucked up.

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Simple question, we've established despite what it's been tagged that this is not a Co-operative. But a form of fan ownership? (correct me if i'm wrong)

Correct.

Why then were the fans the last to be involved, and the group with the least information?

You have been able to pledge your £10/month right from the start! Hardly the last to be involved. There is plenty information for the fans to make an informed decision, and many have (both for and against the CIC). Some fans just seem to want more and more and more. And then when they are given more they just want more. Once the buyout is complete you will be able to be as involved as you want, whether that is standing for a place on the board or quietly voting by email whenever necessary. Be as involved as you want to be.

I suppose this question is only pertinent if we really are discussing fan ownership and not a cobbled together bid that sees all the major decision making already done, and all the positions of power and influence nicely tucked up.

The positions of power will be evenly spread amongst the members via the OMOV system. If someone on the board appears to be abusing their position and pushing things through that isn't the will of the members then it only takes a small amount of members to quickly get that sorted out with an EGM. If you don't like any of the major decisions being made, speak up and get them changed. This is the only bid where you actually do have a voice that will be heard.

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Guest somner9

Correct.

You have been able to pledge your £10/month right from the start! Hardly the last to be involved. There is plenty information for the fans to make an informed decision, and many have (both for and against the CIC). Some fans just seem to want more and more and more. And then when they are given more they just want more. Once the buyout is complete you will be able to be as involved as you want, whether that is standing for a place on the board or quietly voting by email whenever necessary. Be as involved as you want to be.

The positions of power will be evenly spread amongst the members via the OMOV system. If someone on the board appears to be abusing their position and pushing things through that isn't the will of the members then it only takes a small amount of members to quickly get that sorted out with an EGM. If you don't like any of the major decisions being made, speak up and get them changed. This is the only bid where you actually do have a voice that will be heard.

Too late they're already on there for three years! C Whyte needed only a matter of months to crash and burn his club.

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Simple question, we've established despite what it's been tagged that this is not a Co-operative. But a form of fan ownership? (correct me if i'm wrong)

Why then were the fans the last to be involved, and the group with the least information?

I suppose this question is only pertinent if we really are discussing fan ownership and not a cobbled together bid that sees all the major decision making already done, and all the positions of power and influence nicely tucked up.

There have been 6 (if not more) public meetings. Countless email releases. A 10000 Hours forum on their own website. A dedicated thread on this forum. People have been offered that chance to personally talk to REA and the team. SMISA have been advertising meetings for anyone to attend. There is a draft constitution and an FAQ in circulation.

If you feel you have too little information, that is because you have purposefully chosen not to engage in the process, not because 10000 Hours haven't made the effort to get the info out there.

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Too late they're already on there for three years! C Whyte needed only a matter of months to crash and burn his club.

Shameless scaremongering, of the kind for which you were lambasting Supermac's article in the Herald and the PDE article when they mentioned other foreign bidders who have approached the selling consortium.

It can't be one way and not the other. If there are other bidders, they can't be guaranteed to safely look after our club and if there aren't, REA et al can't be guaranteed to bring down the club over the next (fantasy) three years.

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Guest somner9

There have been 6 (if not more) public meetings. Countless email releases. A 10000 Hours forum on their own website. A dedicated thread on this forum. People have been offered that chance to personally talk to REA and the team. SMISA have been advertising meetings for anyone to attend. There is a draft constitution and an FAQ in circulation.

If you feel you have too little information, that is because you have purposefully chosen not to engage in the process, not because 10000 Hours haven't made the effort to get the info out there.

EXACTLY!

You'd have thought there was ample opportunity amongst all that to get fans actually involved with shaping "Fan Ownership" you know places on steering group, involved in deciding who sits on the BoD, should we be giving away revenue earning opportunities in exchange for BoD seats etc, etc,

Now why haven't these opportunities been open to fans as part of fan ownership?

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Guest somner9

Shameless scaremongering, of the kind for which you were lambasting Supermac's article in the Herald and the PDE article when they mentioned other foreign bidders who have approached the selling consortium.

It can't be one way and not the other. If there are other bidders, they can't be guaranteed to safely look after our club and if there aren't, REA et al can't be guaranteed to bring down the club over the next (fantasy) three years.

The constitution states BoD seats are voted on every three years. (fact not fantasy)

as regards other bidders and the Herald article you've got me wrong on that, I was highlighting the fact the article ripped the pish out of 10000 hours for all its false dawn's and serious misgivings amongst the support at being held (Like Smisa) at arms length. and all ReA could offer in response was:

"Yeah we cocked up, but go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on,go on, go on, go on, pledge anyway!

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Correct.

You have been able to pledge your £10/month right from the start! Hardly the last to be involved. There is plenty information for the fans to make an informed decision, and many have (both for and against the CIC). Some fans just seem to want more and more and more. And then when they are given more they just want more. Once the buyout is complete you will be able to be as involved as you want, whether that is standing for a place on the board or quietly voting by email whenever necessary. Be as involved as you want to be.

The positions of power will be evenly spread amongst the members via the OMOV system. If someone on the board appears to be abusing their position and pushing things through that isn't the will of the members then it only takes a small amount of members to quickly get that sorted out with an EGM. If you don't like any of the major decisions being made, speak up and get them changed. This is the only bid where you actually do have a voice that will be heard.

There a few things here.

As stated above if we don't like what's happening we have recourse to an EGM, There needs to be some sort of structure in place to get started and after that we can effect change if we don't like it. Both the CIC board and the club are interim until the AGM in November. Seems fair enough.

Do we really expect to be handed a CIC for nothing? £10 a month is fair enough by me.

it's been a long process. If individual supporters who have strong reservations about the structure of the CIC really wanted to make their voice heard the process it would have been relatively easy to get together to use strength in numbers. Either there is no depth to the numbers or a lack of will to do anything much except complain on here - you had your chance. SMISA is the exception and as a far flung member I know they have questions they want answers to. If SMISA get enough info to say 'yes' on balance then it's a big plus.

Edited by David Mc
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Confirmation of the purchase price of £1.5m over 3 years is now on the 10000Hours FAQ along with the subscription numbers required to repay the debt.

The repayments to the selling consortium would be complete as of 2015.

The repayments to the social investment fund would be complete as of 2020.

This assumes the membership does not grow or shrink and that the CIC generates zero additional revenue over and above that which will be generated by the members bar.

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The draft constitution states BoD seats are voted on every three years. (fact not fantasy)

Fixed that for you. It's amazing how many times you forget that part, and it's kind of important as the constitution can be changed, by the members.

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Div - when will the membership sign-up counter be updated to reflect the new process? It would be useful in advance of tomorrows meeting to gauge current support. I have just emailed 10000Hours the same question.

Same answer I gave last week mate, we agreed to reset the counter after giving members a week to resubmit via the online service.

The counter will be converted to a monetary monthly value, as there are members opting to pay more than £10 a month into the CIC.

The target value of monthly subs is more accurately described as being £7.5K per month rather than simply being 750 members.

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Guest somner9

Fixed that for you. It's amazing how many times you forget that part, and it's kind of important as the constitution can be changed, by the members.

Shame said members couldn't have been invited to steer the process? Now that would have been fan ownership and democracy in action.

Look what you could have had!

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Shame said members couldn't have been invited to steer the process? Now that would have been fan ownership and democracy in action.

Look what you could have had!

The draft constitution was published and comments were invited. You know that.

Who would have been invited to steer the process, how would YOU have picked those people without your view of democracy having been tainted.

Would we have voted to see who was going to steer the process ?

Who would have voted ?

Difficult for members to steer the process until they are members is it not ?

Chicken. Egg.

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Guest somner9

And yet they aren't members until they are members are they ?

Chicken. Egg.

Well you see had it been a co-operative then it would have been shaped by those who wanted to be the members. No chicken and egg situation, just real participation and involvement in all the decisions. Indeed it could not come into being without that basic level of participation

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Well you see had it been a co-operative then it would have been shaped by those who wanted to be the members. No chicken and egg situation, just real participation and involvement in all the decisions. Indeed it could not come into being without that basic level of participation

So we would have fired 650 people into a room and asked them to shape a constitution document ?

Yes, that would have worked well.

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GORDON ROBERT LAIDLAW SCOTT, 15,224 ORDINARY GBP 0.50
9 x 1877 Non Executive board members each making £25,000 lump sum payment.

Given that GLS has pledged 20 shares to each of the 87 club (1740 shares) members how can he sell 9 blocks of shares to to the 1877 club?

By my reckoning 1877 * 7 = 13139 add in the 1740 mentioned previously and that takes you to 14879 shares - where are the other 2 lots coming from?

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Guest somner9

So we would have fired 650 people into a room and asked them to shape a constitution document ?

Yes, that would have worked well.

let me explain how a co-op works, it starts with the a group of people coming together for a common purpose, that naturally leads to a steering (call it what you will) group being seconded up to shape the wider groups thoughts with appropriate checks/balances/discusiion/votes by the wider group.

Then when you have your draft constitution it goes to the membership (650) for approval. It is important to note however that all major decisions are given to the wider membership during set up i.e. BoD members, length of term, exec bodies, revenue generating issues etc, etc. then that goes into the draft constitution for approval. Not as some mistakenly believe the other way round.

All that said you firmly believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that there's an offer on the table and thats the best/only offer you'll get (fan ownership).

I firmly believe that we can and should expect better.

If the car you saw on ebay breaks down three times on the way over to you for a viewing/tyre kicking, don't expect it to fair better if you buy it.

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let me explain how a co-op works, it starts with the a group of people coming together for a common purpose, that naturally leads to a steering (call it what you will) group being seconded up to shape the wider groups thoughts with appropriate checks/balances/discusiion/votes by the wider group.

How is this steering group "naturally created" ?

Who decides who is in it ? Who seconds those people ? How do they do it ?

Give me detail, otherwise I'm not playing.

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All that said you firmly believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that there's an offer on the table and thats the best/only offer you'll get (fan ownership).

I firmly believe that we can and should expect better.

As far as I am aware there is only one offer on the table that delivers any sort of fan ownership of the club.

If another group came out today and said they were launching a fan led takeover of the club I'd be very interested in hearing their plans and I would back them to the hilt through the website as much as I could.

The 10000Hours process has been far from perfect up to this stage, I don't think anyone would disagree but we are where we are and in my opinion we (the fans) should be able to work out all of the finer operational detail once the deal is done.

That is where I stand.

I don't want to be on any boards, I don't want to make any money, I just want to go along and watch the football and know that the club is owned by the people who care about it the most.

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Guest somner9

How is this steering group "naturally created" ?

Who decides who is in it ? Who seconds those people ? How do they do it ?

Give me detail, otherwise I'm not playing.

Well at one of their intial gatherings if they follow a tried and tested process over one hundred and sixty years. They would nominate amongst the potential membership (those willing) to get the ball rolling. here i've attached a link how it all started, and how it's worked across the world. Interesting but not unusual the group was made up of many weavers, a bit like oor toon!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Society_of_Equitable_Pioneers

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Well at one of their intial gatherings if they follow a tried and tested process over one hundred and sixty years. They would nominate amongst the potential membership (those willing) to get the ball rolling. here i've attached a link how it all started, and how it's worked across the world. Interesting but not unusual the group was made up of many weavers, a bit like oor toon!

http://en.wikipedia....itable_Pioneers

Since the webpage you quoted doesn't really tell you anything at all I delved a little further to find out about these pioneers. So they developed the Rochadale principles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_Principles) which are the commonly accepted list of rules of how a co-operative should work.

As far as I can see 10000hrs are following everything to the letter apart from 2 things.....

1. The third principle of economic participation. Everyone doesn't have to pay the same amount in (although the democracy isn't affected due to OMOV)

2. The fifth principle about providing education and training.

Apart from that we seem to conform to the co-op rules and principles completely. Well done 10000hrs.

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