10000 Hours - The Undisputed Facts

[St. Sid]

Other than the fact that they want a minimum of £10-a-month from us. What have we got in Black & White in terms of hard an fast facts.

Fact 1 - It will cost us a tenner a month.

[ktf]

Fact 2 - Sid has spat the dummy.

[Guest somner9]

If we can compare any suggestions to this acronym S.M.A.R.T.

S.pecific, M. easurable, A. chievable, R ealistic, T.ime or resource constrained

I'd be really interested to see what facts stand up to that.

[TsuMirren]

We'll have two boards, with CIC members on both and 48% representation on the SMFC board alongside some very wishy washy commitment to having as yet undefined levels of non-executive representation.

The membership fees will cover the funding.

The CIC members will be involved in some, as yet undefined, sort of way.

The CIC will control funds raised through the use of the new facilities...everyone is probably assuming they'll pay the bills, but we've yet to see anything on that.

There will be scope for change, but possibly this will be after the initial interim 6 months.

[Wilbur]

^{Fact 2 - At least 99% of B&WArmy Forum users will continue to be bored shitless by endless new threads flogging this dead horse.}

[St. Sid]

^{Fact 2 - At least 99% of B&WArmy Forum users will continue to be bored shitless by endless new threads flogging this dead horse.}

No need to whisper it Wilbur...we're all friends here.

[St. Sid]

Fact 2 - Sid has spat the dummy.

Not at all. I am still very much pro-CIC. I am merely testing the available knowledge on the CIC. My view is we have a flyer for the three types of membership, a bollox draft constitution and some objection handling on the 10000 Hours forum. In terms of committed to in Black & White facts we have the sum total of hee-haw facts.

[St. Sid]

We'll have two boards, with CIC members on both and 48% representation on the SMFC board alongside some very wishy washy commitment to having as yet undefined levels of non-executive representation.

The membership fees will cover the funding.

The CIC members will be involved in some, as yet undefined, sort of way.

The CIC will control funds raised through the use of the new facilities...everyone is probably assuming they'll pay the bills, but we've yet to see anything on that.

There will be scope for change, but possibly this will be after the initial interim 6 months.

I don't think you can claim that as a fact. We don't have facts available on the membership fees or key financial details such as interest rates on loans, level of loans, final sale price, income from CIC initiatives, etc. I think that is one of SMiSA's key drivers of outrage.

[Guest somner9]

We'll have two boards, with CIC members on both and 48% representation on the SMFC board alongside some very wishy washy commitment to having as yet undefined levels of non-executive representation.

Isn't it three boards now?

The membership fees will cover the funding.

Nothing to confirm this as yet

The CIC members will be involved in some, as yet undefined, sort of way.

The CIC will control funds raised through the use of the new facilities...everyone is probably assuming they'll pay the bills, but we've yet to see anything on that.

The funds raised through the organisations that have been given facilities at SMP stay with them! 10000 hours have confirmed this. And there is no where to be seen a projection of how much or if ever the CiC will contribute to SMFC

There will be scope for change, but possibly this will be after the initial interim 6 months.

probably be too late by then

[TsuMirren]

I don't think you can claim that as a fact. We don't have facts available on the membership fees or key financial details such as interest rates on loans, level of loans, final sale price, income from CIC initiatives, etc. I think that is one of SMiSA's key drivers of outrage.

Outrage? Well, I suppose jealousy is a form of rage...do SMISA have their own plan or do they merely feed off of triggers like a community model? I have respect for their work to date, but they shoukd have washed their laundry with Richard and not so publicly.

Theres obviously issues around the funding, but it is fact that the prime purpose of the fees is to pay the funding off.

[St. Sid]

Outrage? Well, I suppose jealousy is a form of rage...do SMISA have their own plan or do they merely feed off of triggers like a community model? I have respect for their work to date, but they shoukd have washed their laundry with Richard and not so publicly.

Theres obviously issues around the funding, but it is fact that the prime purpose of the fees is to pay the funding off.

I don't believe that SMiSA or any one else needs an alternative plan - that was another like of objection handling bollox used previously - might even have made that up meself.

The funding is the biggest threat - not just in hitting the initial target, but in makeing sure the levels of membership are maintained - that's why we need to be sure about our commitment before embarkig on what turn out to be utter bollox. Nothing will put us in financial difficulty like a huffy St Miren support when it doesn't get what it wants from the CIC. See the season ticket boycott as an example. SO far we have a wheelbarrow full of expectations built on blah, blah....

Give us facts:

Fact No 3: The proposal requires debt

[TsuMirren]

If there was major doubt amongst the support then there'd surely be more than 8 or 9 of us discussing the recent communications on here.

Hopefully the 7th will give us a lot of the assurances we'll need a cast iron promise that the interim board will take direction and provide appropriate communication.

[St. Sid]

If there was major doubt amongst the support then there'd surely be more than 8 or 9 of us discussing the recent communications on here.

Hopefully the 7th will give us a lot of the assurances we'll need a cast iron promise that the interim board will take direction and provide appropriate communication.

TsuMirren....there was about 20 of us at the last public meeting including the 10000 Hours guys and a lynch mob from SMiSA. The SMiSA guys span that as nobody being interested....10000 Hours span it as.....no quite sure what their response to that was actually. We really need to avoid bollox like that and focus on hard facts - which sadly are sparse at the moment.

[TsuMirren]

Indeed, but remember that the last meeting came with the tagline that it was more for newly interested individuals. Hopefully the 7th is sold as for everyone, with as wide a net as possible cast across all media outlets. It's time for open debate and if we sit next to each other again then perhaps we can share the mic.

[Stuart Dickson]

Indeed, but remember that the last meeting came with the tagline that it was more for newly interested individuals. Hopefully the 7th is sold as for everyone, with as wide a net as possible cast across all media outlets. It's time for open debate and if we sit next to each other again then perhaps we can share the mic.

Yep - I was working anyway but I remember writing off the meeting as "not being for me" as I'd signed up already. I've got a big event on the 8th that I really should be preparing for on the night of the meeting and I kind of get the feeling - without it having been stated - that this meeting isn't really for me either since my Direct Debit is in and it won't be withdrawn but I will try to get along if only just to listen to the arguments being put up by those who are against it. I just hope they can move past talking about the members bar and the lack of communication quite quickly cause it'll be a hell of a shit meeting if we get stuck in that groove

[St. Sid]

Indeed, but remember that the last meeting came with the tagline that it was more for newly interested individuals. Hopefully the 7th is sold as for everyone, with as wide a net as possible cast across all media outlets. It's time for open debate and if we sit next to each other again then perhaps we can share the mic.

I'll be there, but I don't think I'll be saying much. At this stage I am interested in seeing documented information. We keep hearing blah, blah...such as nailing colours to the mast. We really need 10000 Hours to nail their colours to the mast and put their proposals down in Black & White.

Fact 4: The f'k'n bar better be open this time or I'll be bringing a bottle of LD with me.

[Stuart Dickson]

Fact 4: The f'k'n bar better be open this time or I'll be bringing a bottle of LD with me.

....and if I'm going to travel all that way I hope Tony Fitzpatrick, Gordon Scott and Richard Atkinson will leave some sausage rolls for me....

[div]

Fact 1; This is currently the only bid on the table that delivers the control of the club to the St.Mirren supporters.

Fact 2; This bid does not place any borrowing at all on the football club

Fact 3; The bid gives continuity on the football board through current and previous directors making up an interim board

Fact 4; The current selling consortium support this bid and have given it every encouragement to proceed. They trust it.

Fact 5; 650 individuals within the support have completed and signed direct debits and submitting them supporting the bid.

Fact 6; £102K has been pledged by 34 members of the 87 club membership tier

Fact 7; The amount being borrowed from the social funder is potentially just £500k

Fact 8; Gordon Scott has put over £200k worth of shares into the CIC deal

Fact 9; 10000Hours will make a bid for the club on June 15th based on the numbers they have

Fact 10; If the numbers stack up, the majority shareholding will be sold to 10000Hours, which is owned by it's members, the St.Mirren support

Fact 11; 10000Hours will be run on a one member one vote basis

Fact 12; The members will decide the clubs direction on key football issues by virtue of their majority shareholding

Fact 13; If the numbers don't stack up, the bid will most likely be rejected and the club will most likely be sold to a private consortium.

Fact 14; In the three years since the club was put on the market no private consortium has made an acceptable bid for the club

Fact 15; Richard Atkinson has spent 2 years of his own time working for St.Mirren and on this project

Fact 16; Richard has provided temporary funding to bridge cash flow issues at the club over the past year, just as other directors have done in the past

Fact 17; SMiSA was formed with the aim of getting fan representation on the board. This is their chance for fans to have total control.

Fact 18; There have been 5 open public meetings about 10000Hours over the past year

Fact 19; There is a 6th public meeting on June 7th 2012 at 7pm. For anyone to attend, to ask questions, however difficult they might be.

Fact 20; This is almost certainly the only chance the fans will ever have the chance to take control of a healthy St.Mirren FC.

[St. Sid]

Fact 1; This is currently the only bid on the table that delivers the control of the club to the St.Mirren supporters.

Fact 2; This bid does not place any borrowing at all on the football club

Fact 3; The bid gives continuity on the football board through current and previous directors making up an interim board

Fact 4; The current selling consortium support this bid and have given it every encouragement to proceed. They trust it.

Fact 5; 650 individuals within the support have completed and signed direct debits and submitting them supporting the bid.

Fact 6; £102K has been pledged by 34 members of the 87 club membership tier

Fact 7; The amount being borrowed from the social funder is potentially just £500k

Fact 8; Gordon Scott has put over £200k worth of shares into the CIC deal

Fact 9; 10000Hours will make a bid for the club on June 15th based on the numbers they have

Fact 10; If the numbers stack up, the majority shareholding will be sold to 10000Hours, which is owned by it's members, the St.Mirren support

Fact 11; 10000Hours will be run on a one member one vote basis

Fact 12; The members will decide the clubs direction on key football issues by virtue of their majority shareholding

Fact 13; If the numbers don't stack up, the bid will most likely be rejected and the club will most likely be sold to a private consortium.

Fact 14; In the three years since the club was put on the market no private consortium has made an acceptable bid for the club

Fact 15; Richard Atkinson has spent 2 years of his own time working for St.Mirren and on this project

Fact 16; Richard has provided temporary funding to bridge cash flow issues at the club over the past year, just as other directors have done in the past

Fact 17; SMiSA was formed with the aim of getting fan representation on the board. This is their chance for fans to have total control.

Fact 18; There have been 5 open public meetings about 10000Hours over the past year

Fact 19; There is a 6th public meeting on June 7th 2012 at 7pm. For anyone to attend, to ask questions, however difficult they might be.

Fact 20; This is almost certainly the only chance the fans will ever have the chance to take control of a healthy St.Mirren FC.

Is that billable work..

[E=Mc2]

Is that billable work..

If he worked for Duff and Phelps it would be billed at around £450 + vat per hour. (plus postage and "insid"entals)

[Guest somner9]

Fact 1; This is currently the only bid on the table that delivers the control of the club to the St.Mirren supporters.

Fact 2; This bid does not place any borrowing at all on the football club

Fact 3; The bid gives continuity on the football board through current and previous directors making up an interim board

Fact 4; The current selling consortium support this bid and have given it every encouragement to proceed. They trust it.

Fact 5; 650 individuals within the support have completed and signed direct debits and submitting them supporting the bid.

Fact 6; £102K has been pledged by 34 members of the 87 club membership tier

Fact 7; The amount being borrowed from the social funder is potentially just £500k

Fact 8; Gordon Scott has put over £200k worth of shares into the CIC deal

Fact 9; 10000Hours will make a bid for the club on June 15th based on the numbers they have

Fact 10; If the numbers stack up, the majority shareholding will be sold to 10000Hours, which is owned by it's members, the St.Mirren support

Fact 11; 10000Hours will be run on a one member one vote basis

Fact 12; The members will decide the clubs direction on key football issues by virtue of their majority shareholding

Fact 13; If the numbers don't stack up, the bid will most likely be rejected and the club will most likely be sold to a private consortium.

Fact 14; In the three years since the club was put on the market no private consortium has made an acceptable bid for the club

Fact 15; Richard Atkinson has spent 2 years of his own time working for St.Mirren and on this project

Fact 16; Richard has provided temporary funding to bridge cash flow issues at the club over the past year, just as other directors have done in the past

Fact 17; SMiSA was formed with the aim of getting fan representation on the board. This is their chance for fans to have total control.

Fact 18; There have been 5 open public meetings about 10000Hours over the past year

Fact 19; There is a 6th public meeting on June 7th 2012 at 7pm. For anyone to attend, to ask questions, however difficult they might be.

Fact 20; This is almost certainly the only chance the fans will ever have the chance to take control of a healthy St.Mirren FC.

I'm not looking for a response from you Div I don't believe it should all be down to you. Your valiant effort here still leaves all the big questions and issues unresolved. Those collectively being 'Why if this is mean't to be a co-operative have none of the decisions on boards, giving away revenue opportunities, lack of any election, lack of any type of membership participation not been addressed?

10000 hours have formed a company, made all the decisions the members of a co-operative should have been involved with themselves, now they want said members to bankroll board positions for pals, money making opportunities for outside interests etc.

Fact:It is not a co-operative, there has been no democratic participation in the decisions or structure of the cic/co-op,

Fact: the members have had no economic involvement other than being asked for their subscriptions

Fact: there has been no member involvement in selecting a board

Fact: the co-operative movement could fail to recognise this as a co-operative, bringing the whole structure and method into question

[St. Sid]

Fact 1; This is currently the only bid on the table that delivers the control of the club to the St.Mirren supporters. - but what of the "significant interest" from other parties that we are repeatedly threatened with - do you know what they are offering? - A questionable fact, but probably allowable.

Fact 2; This bid does not place any borrowing at all on the football club - Is this actually a relevant fact - there isn't any borrowing on the club at the moment, so it is meaningless. There is significant debt involved in funding the shareholding and the financial viability of that has not been proven - and the previous forum debate on the implications of the CIC going into administration hasn't been answered by 10000 Hours following the point being raised and an assurance to follow up and respond to the public meeting provided.

Fact 3; The bid gives continuity on the football board through current and previous directors making up an interim board - I haven't seen any communication from 10000 Hours relating to existing directors being on the interim BoD.

Fact 4; The current selling consortium support this bid and have given it every encouragement to proceed. They trust it. - We haven't seen any public support for the new version of the CIC from the consortium at all. We haven't seen an opinion on the CIC direct from the consortium for some time. It would be good to see them represented in numbers at the June meeting.

Fact 5; 650 individuals within the support have completed and signed direct debits and submitting them supporting the bid. - I'm one of them and not 100% certain to support the CIC until I have all the information available. I doubt there's many prepared to complete the deal based on th information available to us at this time.

Fact 6; £102K has been pledged by 34 members of the 87 club membership tier - that's a long way short of the target, we need to know the implications of this on the funding required and how this would be managed in the offer to the consortium.

Fact 7; The amount being borrowed from the social funder is potentially just £500k - "potentially" is not a word I would associate with a fact. Pretty sure the last figure was £1million. This information has not been provided by 10000 Hours as far as I am aware so is not a fact.

Fact 8; Gordon Scott has put over £200k worth of shares into the CIC deal - There isn't enough information being made available in terms of how this will work. We have already seen GLS resign from the SMFC BoD. What are the implications of a member of the CIC holding debt over the CIC - that seems to be a massive conflict of interest?

Fact 9; 10000Hours will make a bid for the club on June 15th based on the numbers they have - This part of the process worries me - should the final numbers not be presented to the members prior to the offer being made and a decision made on whether we want to progress. There should be an additional step in this process were members get to assess the offer being made.

Fact 10; If the numbers stack up, the majority shareholding will be sold to 10000Hours, which is owned by it's members, the St.Mirren support - I don't see how this can work in terms of the process. We are being told that nothing can happen until the members ratify and approve the constitution and vote to form the organisation. I have repeatedly asked for the process to be documented in Black & White and provided to the prospective members. The above statement worries me greatly. 10000 Hours does not have a mandate to purchase anything using my money until the organisation is formed. THIS ONE NEEDS DETAILED CLARIFICATION!!!!! I would recommend everyone pulls there direct debit until this is made crystal clear.

Fact 11; 10000Hours will be run on a one member one vote basis - Not a fact as yet, as there is no formal offer that states this. Just some marketing flyers and a draft constitution that hasn't even been discussed, let alone ratified.

Fact 12; The members will decide the clubs direction on key football issues by virtue of their majority shareholding - See the above & this isn't even clear from the draft constitution....there is absolutely no documented detail on how the CIC will interact with SMFC, or how SMFC will function.

Fact 13; If the numbers don't stack up, the bid will most likely be rejected and the club will most likely be sold to a private consortium. - the prospective investors should get the opportunity to approve / reject the bid prior to it being made to the consortium. There is no mandate for 10000 Hours to make the bid on behalf of the prosective investors. If there is where is it?

Fact 14; In the three years since the club was put on the market no private consortium has made an acceptable bid for the club - this includes 10000 Hours who have pretty much had preferred bidder status during that period.

Fact 15; Richard Atkinson has spent 2 years of his own time working for St.Mirren and on this project - I have a lot of time for REA, this is not about personalities or work effort - this is about transparency so that we know exactly what we are signing up to.

Fact 16; Richard has provided temporary funding to bridge cash flow issues at the club over the past year, just as other directors have done in the past - I'm not sure that this is relevant and is actually in conflict with other statements being made that REA is not 10000 Hours - we are. On a personal level I beleive that Richard has been very good for St Mirren FC and I would be delight to see his continued involvement irrespective of what happens moving forward. It appears that his focus is going to be entirely on the CIC and no longer on SMFC going by the press release. No documentation has been provided for us to understand the interim BoD and how it will function.

Fact 17; SMiSA was formed with the aim of getting fan representation on the board. This is their chance for fans to have total control. - SMiSA will not have total control of the CIC never mind SMFC. In fact the influence they and fans will have has not been documented. There is no detail available on how fans interact with the CIC, how the CIC interacts with SMFC.....we have no idea whether there will be any influence beyond a vote every three years and even that is not gauranteed as we only have a draft constitution.

Fact 18; There have been 5 open public meetings about 10000Hours over the past year - and they have been pretty much useless as the current offering bears absolutely no resemblence to the current proposal - a proposal that doesn't have any documentation available for prospective members to review.

Fact 19; There is a 6th public meeting on June 7th 2012 at 7pm. For anyone to attend, to ask questions, however difficult they might be. - We have almost nothing to base the questions on as we have not been provided with a detailed proposal. The question will be all over the place along with the answers and there will be no output from the meeting that the prospective members can refer to after the offer is made to the consortium and accepted. At the moment this is nothing more than a financial transaction with no gaurantees on the product we are investing in.

Fact 20; This is almost certainly the only chance the fans will ever have the chance to take control of a healthy St.Mirren FC. - "almost certainly" not a phrase I would associate with a fact.

A wee bit like TsuMirren before you, you have fallen into the trap of claiming soundbites as being facts.

Like I said before, you are being unfairly exposed by not being provided with the detail - It shouldn't be chinese whispers. 10000 Hours should provide a detailed proposal that they can be held to. At the moment the only real fact is that people are being asked to pay at least £10-a-month to fund an offer to the club. Beyond that we have absolutely no information other than press releases and information provided 3rd party by fellow fans with no remit to communicate on behalf of 10000 Hours.

I want the CIC to happen; however we are far too exposed in the current lack of documented process and detail.

We need a detailed document before the meeting, and we need absolutely clarity on the process for this purchase of the shares. If this is not provided then everyone should cancel their direct debits based on the statement that the shares can be bought without our approval. If the direct debits signatures are being used as a mandate to buy the shares then this is nothing more than a cynical mugging of well intentioned fans.

[div]

Everyone who signed a direct debit mandate will be asked to confirm they are happy to proceed with it before any money is withdrawn from their account.

I am working today on trying to make that happen online so as to make it as easy as possible for everyone to quickly validate whether they are in our out.

Not technically an easy task and I could be doing without it right now but if it helps to give us closure one way or the other then it is worth it.

[Guest somner9]

Everyone who signed a direct debit mandate will be asked to confirm they are happy to proceed with it before any money is withdrawn from their account.

I am working today on trying to make that happen online so as to make it as easy as possible for everyone to quickly validate whether they are in our out.

Not technically an easy task and I could be doing without it right now but if it helps to give us closure one way or the other then it is worth it.

I know it doesn't affect me but I find this quite incredible that the members of a proposed co-operative are being asked to make their contributions for the year, but they have had absolutely no involvement in shaping, voting or getting any clear factual information detailing what they are commiting to.

The co-op movement will rip this to shreds. Its completely undemocratic

[St. Sid]

Everyone who signed a direct debit mandate will be asked to confirm they are happy to proceed with it before any money is withdrawn from their account.

I am working today on trying to make that happen online so as to make it as easy as possible for everyone to quickly validate whether they are in our out.

Not technically an easy task and I could be doing without it right now but if it helps to give us closure one way or the other then it is worth it.

I'm not sure if that was in response to my post; however I am not convinced that actually deals with the point being made.

For me the direct debit was always about permission to progress to the negotiation stage. Not permission to actually make the transaction for the shares. Teh shares will be purchased and 10000 Hours will be live before we even have the most basic of information about what it actually is. I need a formal offer, a full proposal of what it is we are signing up to before any purchase of the shareholding takes place.

This is starting to look like it is being pushed through. I think 10000 Hours needs to put the brakes on and properly engage with the fans. We should be provided with formal documentation that will act as an agreement to what we are signing up to. You can't just take a direct debit form and take that as a mandate to make a £1.7Million pound purchase that involves a significant amount of debt without providing no accompanying documentation.

At the moment the fans have absolutely no protection. There is no formal documentation being offered and accepted. You can't just take peoples money and do what you want with it without their prior agreement.

The process at the moment appears to be......get direct debits signed -> buy shares -> then we'll sort out the fine print.......

We are very exposed in that process. This is looking like a massive leap of faith in the people who are actually empowered in the process looking after fans interest.