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10000 Hours - The Undisputed Facts


St. Sid

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Representation does not mean all of them are on the football club board, which is what you and Somner have been alluding to by virtue of your "pay £25k, get a seat on the board" nonsense.

That's not what we were saying at all - I certainly wasn't. I raised concerns about the dodgy line in the sales flyer to prosepective non-exec members. It was so ambiguous it required clarification. It now transpires my suspicions were bang on.

A new BoD has been created to provide 7 - 9 individual corporate members at least one gauranteed place of the SMFC BoD. As well as that they are getting a non-exec members board. That will be the non-exec with even less information provided about it than the SMFC BoD. So far we have a partially populated interim BoD with two members so controversial that they cannot be named yet.

Honest ti f"k.....when is somebody just going to produce a final document that tells us exactly what the f"k is going on. All this chinese whisper, who's is supposed to know what pish is going to kill the CIC before we even get a chance to know what it is and judge its merits properly.

For the avoidance of doubt this is me holding back on having a right good go criticism of 10000 Hours by the way, as I am very much on side. But the patience with it is starting to wear very thin.

Details please for every fan so that we can decide if it is want we want for the club, and whether we invest in it.

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There are now 24 questions and answers online in the 10000Hours FAQ section at http://www.10000hours.org/faq

Most of it is about how they take your money....which speaks volumes.

Within the space of a week the structure has changed yet again. Now there will be an election shortly after the transaction takes place. However, no elected member will be on the BoD of SMFC, which will have a majority of non-St Mirren supporters on it and zero elected representatives. Zero transparency, zero representation and attempts to give us as little as possible at every turn of the coin.

So far the community members are getting the same deal as before only with no requirement to pay £500-a-year. The corporate members deal has got a helluva lot better only they get it for a one off £25K payment as opposed to £10K per-year.

The only group being asked to pay more are the fans and we are getting less than we had before. £10-a-month has now become as much as you can spake, whilst the actual deal is miles away from the original one offered when social fund grant money was part of the deal.

No longer what it says on the tin.

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Most of it is about how they take your money....which speaks volumes.

Personally I think it's important that people understand the mechanics of how their money will be collected, when and by whom.

Within the space of a week the structure has changed yet again.

No it hasn't but don't let that get in the way of your increasingly desperate attempts to de-rail fan ownership of the football club.

Now there will be an election shortly after the transaction takes place. However, no elected member will be on the BoD of SMFC, which will have a majority of non-St Mirren supporters on it and zero elected representatives. Zero transparency, zero representation and attempts to give us as little as possible at every turn of the coin.

You must have missed the part where it says that the CIC board will sit alongside the football club interim board during the interim period so in actual fact there will be three CIC members sitting alongside the football club board until November. This gives those elected individuals total transparency on how the football club board is running the football club board. How you can interpret that as 0% representation and zero transparency is beyond me !

The only group being asked to pay more are the fans and we are getting less than we had before. £10-a-month has now become as much as you can spake, whilst the actual deal is miles away from the original one offered when social fund grant money was part of the deal.

The standard membership was always a minimum of £10 a month and nobody is being asked to pay more than that. The option to pay more is there for those who want to own a larger equity stake in the 10000Hours organisation. Still one member, one vote, regardless of how much you pay.

No longer what it says on the tin.

Everyone can be in no doubt about exactly how this is going to work. It is there in black and white, you know how the interim boards will be consrtucted, you know how the club and the CIC will be run until the end of the year. If it's not for you then fair enough, opt out and sit on the sidelines.

Think about this though;

It will be a lot easier to effect positive change from within the organisation than sitting on the outside carping about how terrible it all is.

On the response to the OP on this thread, the undeniable, undisputable fact is that the controlling interest in St.Mirren Football Club will be owned by 10000Hours which in turn on a one member one vote basis will be owned by the St.Mirren supporters.

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In it to make more dosh Div ? You sell it for the " Fandans " Forget the Real Fans - Money talk's - Your CIC can go and Get Fcuked .

It's not "my" CIC.

I have stated my personal position many times and I'm not going to do it again so fire away all the abuse at me you like, makes no difference to me !

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Are we all having to refill in direct debit forms ?

Have never been to any of the public meetings due to work commitments so will go along on Thursday. Not to be sold in to CIC as I'm already sold on fan ownership. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know it's the best way for your club to go.

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Are we all having to refill in direct debit forms ?

Have never been to any of the public meetings due to work commitments so will go along on Thursday. Not to be sold in to CIC as I'm already sold on fan ownership. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know it's the best way for your club to go.

Hi Ian, 10000hours are asking everyone to reconfirm their direct debit. This is all done online now so head to www.10000hours.org/directdebit where it is all explained.

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No it hasn't but don't let that get in the way of your increasingly desperate attempts to de-rail fan ownership of the football club.

This shat upon the rest of your post Div. I am still pro-CIC. I am just increasingly frustrated at the nature of the communication to the general support. You have already acknowledged the poor communication.

You must have missed the part where it says that the CIC board will sit alongside the football club interim board during the interim period so in actual fact there will be three CIC members sitting alongside the football club board until November. This gives those elected individuals total transparency on how the football club board is running the football club board. How you can interpret that as 0% representation and zero transparency is beyond me !

SImple mis-reading of what is yet another slow release of information that has been yet another change in direction from last week.

The standard membership was always a minimum of £10 a month and nobody is being asked to pay more than that. The option to pay more is there for those who want to own a larger equity stake in the 10000Hours organisation. Still one member, one vote, regardless of how much you pay.

You can pay more if you like, whilst all the other groups are paying less for more.

Everyone can be in no doubt about exactly how this is going to work. It is there in black and white, you know how the interim boards will be consrtucted, you know how the club and the CIC will be run until the end of the year. If it's not for you then fair enough, opt out and sit on the sidelines.

Div, we have had to scream and shout to get this still very basic level of information. There is still very much a lot of doubt about how this is going to work. There is zero information being released on the funding, the debt, how SMFC will function. It now smacks of being made up on the hoof in response to whatever the various groups demand of 10000 Hours. However, it is good to see that they have finally woken up and noticed the fans.

My challenging of 10000 Hours might not suit the shut up and sign up approach; however we now need information and it is stick being trickly fed and appear to be changing on a daily basis.

I am still very much pro-CIC. Just very anti the way fans are currently being treated in the process.

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I honestly think that the new FAQs have a good amount of information about how this will work and written in a way that is both easy to read and understand; something that the draft constitution didn't do. For people subscribing £10 a month, you really just want to know what your part in the whole thing will be and it seems to be pretty clear to me. In fact, it just confirms how I already thought it would work.

The fans (well one fan really) have screamed for a simple explanation of how this will really work and here it is, in laymans terms, black and white, on a single page, with examples. Admittedly there are no pictures but I think we get it. You asked for it, here it is, but you're still not happy.

As for the minute details of funding and debt, it is mentioned that long term commitment is expected by the members to service the debt and that is fine by me. We can afford to pay it off and we get to run the club. It would be nice to have no debt. It would be nice to pay it off within a year. But it will get paid off, and when it does we will get to decide what to do with our tenners. I don't really need or want any more information than that. If it turns out that the creditor is someone dodgy that we would rather not be in bed with then we will cross that bridge when we come to it but it is an unlikely scenario and the BoD wouldn't allow it in the first place.

We don't have any substantial reason to believe that 10000hrs are doing anything but good here. Good for St Mirren and good for the fans. If there is anything you don't like about it, join up and get it changed.

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I honestly think that the new FAQs have a good amount of information about how this will work and written in a way that is both easy to read and understand; something that the draft constitution didn't do. For people subscribing £10 a month, you really just want to know what your part in the whole thing will be and it seems to be pretty clear to me. In fact, it just confirms how I already thought it would work.

The fans (well one fan really) have screamed for a simple explanation of how this will really work and here it is, in laymans terms, black and white, on a single page, with examples. Admittedly there are no pictures but I think we get it. You asked for it, here it is, but you're still not happy.

As for the minute details of funding and debt, it is mentioned that long term commitment is expected by the members to service the debt and that is fine by me. We can afford to pay it off and we get to run the club. It would be nice to have no debt. It would be nice to pay it off within a year. But it will get paid off, and when it does we will get to decide what to do with our tenners. I don't really need or want any more information than that. If it turns out that the creditor is someone dodgy that we would rather not be in bed with then we will cross that bridge when we come to it but it is an unlikely scenario and the BoD wouldn't allow it in the first place.

We don't have any substantial reason to believe that 10000hrs are doing anything but good here. Good for St Mirren and good for the fans. If there is anything you don't like about it, join up and get it changed.

BoW Saint....what we have is some FAQs. The last set of FAQs was taken off the web as it became irrelevant to the current offering. It was replaced only last week when another fan not me questioned that.

Stop trying to isolate people with fannytalk like that.

The fans already have more that we had this time last week. We have the FAQs. Sadly the explanations do not reflect the constitution.

There are also more expamles of 10000 Hours trying to dictate how the CIC will actually work. "Prior to the CIC AGM the interim board of 7 will have presented its thoughts to the members on the size of the full board" - this has got f"k all to do with the interim Boards. That will be part of the process in defining the CIC, its constitution and how SMFC will work with it. That is not the job of an interim BoD - which up until the latest FAQ change of strategy was intended to be REA / Tony F / GLS + 2 in-named people who it now looks like was going to be Chris Stewart and Brian Caldwell.

There was no fan involvement planned until after the interim BoD had been structuring the CIC and SMFC for 6 months.

The time for being a patsy to people we barely know if over and it is now time for fans to decide what they want for being the funders of the takeover of the club.

WE ARE FUNDING THIS - NON 10000 Hours, not GLS, not the yet to be named non-executive BoD. The fans are funding this in its entirity. And you just want to let people you barely know dictate the terms of that. No wonder they thought they could get away with offering us nothing for our money.

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Within the lastest FAQ release there appears to be an error:

The only positions that will not be up for election at the first AGM will be that of Richard Atkinson and Gordon Scott who, for reasons of continuity at the request of the external funder, will stay in place until the funders have comfort with the full CIC board.

Come the Club Agm the Co-opted members will have to be re-elected and Chris and Richard would be due to stand for re election anyway.

I reckon whoever wrote the FAQ response meant to write Chris (Stewart) and Brian (Caldwell)?????? Can we take it from this that it is not REA writing the FAQs as that would be an odd error to make.

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How on earth is presenting views EVER something being dictated to anyone? Also...it's not an error as I dont believe Brian is on the board so he wouldnt be up for re-election.

One BoDs views presented to another BoDs views has got f"k all to do with fan ownership. It is up to the general membership to decide how many people are on our BoD. I would go further and say it is up to the general membership to decide how many people are on the SMFC BoD and where they come from. 10000 Hours has no mandate to give away place on the SMFC BoD or to create a non-exec BoD. What else will the interim BoD be doing prior to the organisation becoming a legal entity?

If Brian Caldwell isn't on the SMFC interim BoD then whit the f"k are they on about then as that would be two f"k ups on the one FAQ. It states specifically - "This will be Tony Fitzpatrick, Gordon Scott, Richard Atkinson, Chris Stewart and Brian Caldwell." - if this is 10000 Hours raising their game in terms of communicating with the fans then we're in bigger trouble than I thought. 1eye.gif

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They're talking about current board members being up for re-election. The presented views would be there for information and could be challenged, presumably before a vote.

Then why bother - it should be a fans decision. 10000 Hours need to know their place. At the moment they are overstepping the mark if they are serious about empowering the fans. The Rock would never allow this pish.

That FAQ needs to be completely reworked so it actually makes some sense - we are getting back of a fag packet information, which suggests the thing is - after almost 2years - a work in progress. We are being asked to commit to a £1.7Million debt gamble based on a structure that doesn't appear to exist yet.

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Right, so basically the fans who've never been in the boardroom or even agreed on whether Teale is good/bad are to make all decisions without any guidance based on experience. Yet, at the same time, the CIC are to define a structure etc.

Forget The Rock, I'm more a Daniel Bryan sort of a guy and as such I look at the proposed structure and the reality it could bring then think yes, yes, yes, yes.

Let's not let this fail because we don't trust each other (the full support that is) to grab hold and be in control.

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Right, so basically the fans who've never been in the boardroom or even agreed on whether Teale is good/bad are to make all decisions without any guidance based on experience. Yet, at the same time, the CIC are to define a structure etc.

Forget The Rock, I'm more a Daniel Bryan sort of a guy and as such I look at the proposed structure and the reality it could bring then think yes, yes, yes, yes.

Let's not let this fail because we don't trust each other (the full support that is) to grab hold and be in control.

There we have it folks. The pro-CIC guys are nothing more than corporate fags. They are content to pass control of the club to corporate bawbags without carrying out any due dilligence. 10000 Hours rubs their bellies and the pro-CIC fans sell out the club shouting about how fans are incable of making decisions at the club and could not be trusted to be involved.

The fans provide the revenue to keep SMFC running.

Now the fans are to provide the revenue for the oddly titled "fan ownership" for corporate bawbags to decide how to fleece us out of even more cash.

We have a healthy well run club - do fans really need to fund a £1.7M debt to replace one trusted BoD for a BoD made up of non-St Mirren fans who we barely know that are not prepared to provide us with any details on what we are actually getting. There is no transparency, there is not genuine fan empowerment. There is a core at the centre of this who will all make money.....the consortium, GLS, 10000 Hours, the 1877 corporate members all see hard cash in their pockets out of this venture entirely funded by rank and file fans. The fans haven't even seen a hint of how this will increase revenues for SMFC despite the fact we are donating - and we're the only cnuts actually "donating" money here - at least £1.7M + interest.

No guarantee of money going into the team.

No guarantee of long term security for St Mirren.

No fan empowerment.

No transparency.

We pay £1.7M against a debt - it has been dressed up as donations - deferred payments - but none of this cash is making its way into the club.

The debt presents risk to the club, it presents risk to our SPL / League status.

Question have been asked about the above and the answers just haven't been there. Instead we get chinese whispers...dodgy press articles...and soundbites from as someone else put it "the chosen ones".

We do not have a document that we can review that is a final offer to fans, that outlines exactly how this will be of benefit to the club, let alone to us. What we get is clarification on a point by point basis - if they chose to respond to the point. And some reassurances about how they are taking our money.

SMiSA keep repeating the same question - “We would strongly encourage all St Mirren fans to fully investigate all aspects of the 10000Hours project prior to any commitment towards this. We cannot over stress this point.” I haven't seen any fan display the required level of understanding of this that should allow them to take a gamble on the future of our club - at the moment it is a leap of faith as we do not have the detail required to propoerly assess the CIC. AT the same time it would be foolish to right off the CIC. 10000 Hours need to demonstrate the same trust in the fans that they are asking of us.

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