flyingscot Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 You are assuming that 10000hours will take over the club. That debt could just as easily be hawked against Greenhill Road and St Mirren FC if Gilmour follows through with his promise to sell no matter what. As for selling their shares - I've no issue with that but the market value is massively skewed. How can anyone value a business that for 12 out of 13 years barely turned a profit at £4m is beyond me, especially when that values the club at over 150% of annual turnover. Football is always mad in the valuation stakes. However we will regret it if someone does buy the club only to load the debt back onto us. The CIC might not be the wonderful option, but it is a far better option than that, and I feel if we let it slip by we might look at other clubs doing fan ownership and get a wee bit jealous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) Football is always mad in the valuation stakes. However we will regret it if someone does buy the club only to load the debt back onto us. The CIC might not be the wonderful option, but it is a far better option than that, and I feel if we let it slip by we might look at other clubs doing fan ownership and get a wee bit jealous. It's easy to pick faults but I feel this final bid has not been handled well. Another poster pointed out a personal letter should have been sent out to every direct debit that was submitted before. . My money is on a lot of fans out there already think they are still part of the CIC as they submitted a paper direct debit and don't realise it's out of date. Edited June 12, 2012 by Lochwinnoch Saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Saint Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 I dont think anyone ever buys a lottery ticket with huge confidence they will score the jackpot, but they still buy them in most cases its worth £1 investment for the 5 minute day dream about how I would spend the cash. I am signed up for this on a similar rational, its not a fantastic investment opportunity nor does it tick every single box on what is best for the club. But for the price of 45 mintues of football or a few pints per month its worth a punt without a doubt. We have been up for sale, in a great financial position for a long time now, no one wants to buy us. Its a sorry state of affairs if we the fans don't event want to buy the club. Its a bit of a risk but its one worth taking in my view with or without any assurances that we will all have a say in how the clubs run. I really hope we get the sign ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Football is always mad in the valuation stakes. However we will regret it if someone does buy the club only to load the debt back onto us. The CIC might not be the wonderful option, but it is a far better option than that, and I feel if we let it slip by we might look at other clubs doing fan ownership and get a wee bit jealous. Flyingscot. There is no doubt in my mind that being a Community Interest Company is a wonderful solution for every football club - senior or otherwise. I also agree that if St Mirren fans let this opportunity slip past they most likely won't get a second bite at it, and I am certain fans of the club will spend many nights in the future kicking themselves as to why they let it pass. My thoughts on the St Mirren board and of Stewart Gilmour in particular are no secret so perhaps I won't be listened to when I re-iterate Sids point, but the selling consortium are holding a rifle to the St Mirren supports head and it's all being done so they can grab as much cash as possible out of the club and off the fans of the club as is possible. For them to walk away without criticism from the St Mirren fans who's pockets they are dipping is sad enough, but to see them still being hero worshipped and trusted - well that is downright absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) BtB - I think LS was replying to my post where I asked if anyone wanted to buy my shares at market value. My post was made tongue in cheek as like you I havent thought of selling them Dont sell them then, Simples, Be worth nothing by Friday anywaySorry TS was quoting BTB i dont want to sell my shares Quote Edited June 12, 2012 by santaponsasaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) Dont sell them then, Simples, Be worth nothing by Friday anyway Sorry TS was quoting BTB i dont want to sell my shares Quote Yeah well it's no surprise to see you making a mistake, or failing to take my statement in context....................... It was in response to Lochwinnoch Saint saying after y'all have finished paying a grand to buy the Consortium's shares & whatever it costs to pay off GLS & his two mystery shareholders that you'll keep on going and buy the rest of us out - no matter that I don't want to sell. I bought my shares 15 years ago when the club was in financial trouble and have never wanted my money back, now I feel genuine sympathy for the consortium members who put substantially more in but I'm not interested in bailing them out just because they're fed up. If they can find someone to buy them fine but frankly I'm pissed off with the alternating barrage of whinges & threats from the CIC & it's zealots. Edited June 12, 2012 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Yeah well it's no surprise to see you making a mistake, or failing to take my statement in context....................... It was in response to Lochwinnoch Saint saying after y'all have finished paying a grand to buy the Consortium's shares & whatever it costs to pay off GLS & his two mystery shareholders that you'll keep on going and buy the rest of us out - no matter that I don't want to sell. I bought my shares 15 years ago when the club was in financial trouble and have never wanted my money back, now I feel genuine sympathy for the consortium members who put substantially more in but I'm not interested in bailing them out just because they're fed up. If they can find someone to buy them fine but frankly I'm pissed off with the alternating barrage of whinges & threats from the CIC & it's zealots. Oops sorry forgot, Sense of humour by pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 but the selling consortium are holding a rifle to the St Mirren supports head and it's all being done so they can grab as much cash as possible out of the club and off the fans of the club as is possible. For them to walk away without criticism from the St Mirren fans who's pockets they are dipping is sad enough, but to see them still being hero worshipped and trusted - well that is downright absurd. Mr Dickson - the most salient and relevant post you have ever made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 I see there is now a tangible benefit for individual members - Immortality! http://10000hours.or...ur-club-history I'm already immortal so this doesn't make any odds to me, TBH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Nothing wrong with that Yflab - I've just watched a burd on the BBC saying she bought her one year old daughter a brick at Ibrox for her birthday last year. Hopefully when they bulldoze Ibrox she'll be able to recover it. That way the poor child can throw it at her over and over and over again when she's old enough to know what kind of shit present her parents bought her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Based on what evidence? Ah, sorry, I thought we were talking about being immoral. My mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Oops sorry forgot, Sense of humour by pass No argument bypass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I feel very uncomfortable with the timing of this whole takeover now. For the record I have submitted my Direct Debit mandate again and have pleadged to back the takeover, however I fear that it will not go through with enough interest from our support. The fear I have is that if the takeover is rejected we are still very much at the mercy of a takeover from a consortium of blue vermin who also find themselves in a difficult situation at t he moment. If we were taken over by a blue consortium (in disguise) claiming to have St Mirrens best interest at heart and the dirty deed is done to change our name to rangers and move along the motorway, how will we feel then. I can't believe that the takeover has not been explained and publicised more to our support to advise of this sort of horror outcome. Are St Mirren fans and the people of Paisley and Renfreshire that disallusioned and apathetic to the club now ? It's maybe just my paranoia of the situation but the timing and lack of push and effort for our situation is concerning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilPar72 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The timing of this is unfortunate. I wont be filling in a direct debit form, whilst there is still a possibility of Rangers remaining an Spl club. Yes, you could argue that if the CIC is successful then the fans can dictate how St Mirren vote. But sadly we would need another 4 clubs to do the same, and can anybody say with any certainty that will happen. Do i want to have a voice in a club that plays in a league devoid of any sporting integrity and acknowledgement of its fans wishes...no thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 To me Balfy, my feelings toward the club trump newco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The timing of everything here is unfortunate. We are in the close season, the situation at Ibrox is changing rapidly and there is a lot of uncertainty in general about the SPL and Scottish Football. If the majority of St.Mirren fans genuinely think that the club being sold to an international consortium we don't know, given what has and is happening at Rangers, is preferable to the 10000Hours bid then I truly despair for us. Yes, the 10000Hours bid is not perfect, but it is the only route we have towards fan ownership of the club as it stands today. We have the chance to protect the football club for generations to come, and we can all work together to make it whatever we want it to be. If that isn't worth £10 a month then seriously, god help us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbain Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 i cannot see a huge influx in the £10 a month subscription at this late stage making a huge difference, i presume the big gap is the £3000 and £25k membership package, this is what will make it happen or not. ok i am one of the guilty ones for not yet deciding on the £3k package, i believe that you have to pay this money by the end of the month, as per the last email from GLS, just thought that was a bit cheeky asking for full payment before anything had been agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 The timing of everything here is unfortunate. We are in the close season, the situation at Ibrox is changing rapidly and there is a lot of uncertainty in general about the SPL and Scottish Football. If the majority of St.Mirren fans genuinely think that the club being sold to an international consortium we don't know, given what has and is happening at Rangers, is preferable to the 10000Hours bid then I truly despair for us. Yes, the 10000Hours bid is not perfect, but it is the only route we have towards fan ownership of the club as it stands today. We have the chance to protect the football club for generations to come, and we can all work together to make it whatever we want it to be. If that isn't worth £10 a month then seriously, god help us all. Div, that message has been repeated over and over again by you and others. It might be a salient point but I wish 10000hours would change tack in it's recruitment drive. I presume tomorrow is the last full day to get people to sign up, if so what I'd love to see now is case studies and examples of how 10000hours sees St Mirren FC, the community and corporate groups all working together. I read your text from last weeks meeting and in there you talked about how businesses were watching these websites to see what fans thought of the proposals. If I was a potential corporate member right now I've got to say I think I would be utterly bemused as to what my £25,000 would be getting used for. Take, for example, a company that was quoted earlier in the CIC process - Orchard Energy. When they were rolled out to the press the talk was that they were going to take a £10,000 per annum corporate membership. In return they would be installing solar panels on the roof at Greenhill Road, and also at Ralston. The return on their investment was pretty obvious. Using the governments feed in tarrif there was money to be made from generating electricity to put back into the grid. They would also make money from SMFC by selling the club the electricity generated, and by managing the energy suppliers and presumably also the energy usage in return for an annual fee from the club which would probably be a percentage of the savings that were delivered to the club. On top of that there was the potential positive publicity - they already got coverage in the national press - and a fairly high profile case study that could be used to promote themselves to other Social Enterprise projects - presumably some of which would be community members involved in 10000hours. I'm guessing at most of that detail but I don't think I'd be too far off the mark since it would fit in with the MUI process of having to show tangible benefits for the business, for the club, and for the community. Does the project still work for them when it's now a lump sum of £25,000? Do they really want non executive board membership and a "club suit"? Do they still see potential in the project with SMFC since the focus on the Community Groups appears to have slipped - whether it has or not remains to be seen but it's certainly taking a much lower profile in terms of the way 10000hours are talking about the project now. What about Sportswear manufacturers - like JD Sports? If they are involved at £25,000 level what are 10000hours doing to get them excited about the potential of the project beyond selling a pile of St Mirren strips and club wear through local shops? Are there people showing them the benefits of extending their range and marketing to community clubs that are involved in the project and if JD Sports aren't interested has moves been made to engage other teamwear suppliers for a similar membership showing how they may benefit from involvement with community members? I think it potential individual members can see how the whole project is going to work supporting community groups and local businesses then they would be much happier putting in their £10 per month. They may even start to see the potential size of the project and just how beneficial it could all become to St Mirren FC. Right now this is looking more and more like one of those projects where the selling consortium are just going to milk and squeeze the same usual suspects for more and more money whilst squeezing on the trigger of the Colt 45 that they've got pointing at your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck1 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 If the CIC goes through and 10000hrs own the 52% share holding in SMFC,if they 10000hrs decide to expand there interest outside SMFC and it all goes belly up and they get into financial problems . What would the effects be on SMFC as 10000hrs are the 52% share holding in SMFC ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 No-one has been able to confirm/deny whether the Consortium reached the majority shareholding by certain shareholders buying more at a time when a supporters group had money to invest and were constantly ignored. I'm pretty sure this was answered away back in the misty dawn of this whole process. The answer I recall is that the shares were picked up around the time of the last share issue when nobody else came in to buy them. I don't remember the timeline of the share issue and how it relates to SMISA's financial profile or even if they were around then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 The Tesco purchase eliminated large creditors including Bill Barr, RDC and Clydesdale Bank (IIRC) - this takeover is taking the supporters back to having a significant debt to a number of different creditors and that concerns me - especially given the benefits provided to every other membership group bar the Rank and File. Being able to have a say on key decisions affecting the football club, safeguarding the clubs assets for generations to come, and getting to have a pint in the stadium bar. Two of those three benefits you can't even put a value on. Good value for a tenner a month in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo57 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I presume tomorrow is the last full day to get people to sign up, Fans can sign up until midnight on Friday 14th June 78% of target reached as of 11am this Thursday morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Fans can sign up until midnight on Friday 14th June 78% of target reached as of 11am this Thursday morning. Friday 15th June - not looking to be pedantic, just guarding against any confusion. Edited June 14, 2012 by Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Friday 15th June - not looking to be pedantic, just guarding against any confusion. Pedant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted June 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Fans can sign up at any time, there is nothing stopping anyone signing up next week. The deadline of tomorrow at midnight will be used to ascertain the level of backing the bid has and thus on what basis an offer can be made, if at all. 10000Hours will issue a statement on Monday as to where they are with the bid as of course there is also the important elements of the 87 club and the 1877 non-exec members. They are important aspects of the bid too. If you support the bid then keep spreading the word and keep the subscriptions coming in. It would be terrific if we could EXCEED the £7500 subs target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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