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10000 Hours Do It Do It!


bazil85

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The main point surely is it is not going out of SMFC either ?

div, I am not a private bidder. I do not wear those shoes. I am a fan - nothing more, nothing less. I like watching St Mirren play football. I would like the club to be around for my kids to grow up with just like every other fan. I have zero interest in buying a football club or being involved in the running of one.

You can talk all you want about how other bids work. It is a complete irrelevant. We are now at the stage when we need to look closely at how this bid works and most importantly the risks involved. Thinking about securing the long term future of the club I don't think any of us should base that on trust, especially not when a fans group have expressed concerns about it.

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Sorry Sid I can't understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying you are concerned that profits generated from CIC initiatives would be used to cover the shortfall from a fall off in the number of members? Why would that be a concern?

Through here we're looking at business plans that would repay social funder loans without touching member subscriptions.

Stu, what I am getting at is the information has not been provided - there is no detail. You are trying to debate information that isn;t in the public domain. Once we get the information we can debate it to death. I am only hoghlighting areas that have no detail attached to them whatsoever.

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You can talk all you want about how other bids work. It is a complete irrelevant. We are now at the stage when we need to look closely at how this bid works and most importantly the risks involved. Thinking about securing the long term future of the club I don't think any of us should base that on trust, especially not when a fans group have expressed concerns about it.

Very relevant if you ask me. If the club isn't sold to 10000Hours and thus the St.Mirren support it will be sold to a private individual or consortium who will be looking to make a return on their investment *

The only way they can do that is to take money out of the club.

* Unless I win the Euros tonight.

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Very relevant if you ask me. If the club isn't sold to 10000Hours and thus the St.Mirren support it will be sold to a private individual or consortium who will be looking to make a return on their investment *

The only way they can do that is to take money out of the club.

* Unless I win the Euros tonight.

Nope, what matters with 9 days to go is the detail of the CIC / SMFC offer. That dicision is being forced upon us with a deadline - who by doesn't matter. What is required now is an understanding of what the CIC is and the impact it will have on the long term future of the club. Pointing outside of that detail is only going to raise the alarm bells even further. Now is the time for scrutinising the CIC. We all know about the risks from outside bidders. Trying to use that to deflect from any potential shortcomings of the CIC is not a great strategy when the worry is about what we don;t know about the risks that come with the CIC.

Trying to trump one risk with another rather than mitigate the risk with information is frankly mental. tongue.png

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Nope, what matters with 9 days to go is the detail of the CIC / SMFC offer. That dicision is being forced upon us with a deadline - who by doesn't matter. What is required now is an understanding of what the CIC is and the impact it will have on the long term future of the club. Pointing outside of that detail is only going to raise the alarm bells even further. Now is the time for scrutinising the CIC. We all know about the risks from outside bidders. Trying to use that to deflect from any potential shortcomings of the CIC is not a great strategy when the worry is about what we don;t know about the risks that come with the CIC.

Trying to trump one risk with another rather than mitigate the risk with information is frankly mental. tongue.png

So what is this risk that 10000hours are posing to St Mirren FC Sid? The only thing I've seen stated is that there is a concern that if member numbers drop off 10000hours may not be able to repay the Social Funder. I understand that risk - of course - and I suppose I've added to it by stating that as a member and a non St Mirren supporter, I would be quite happy to cancel my direct debit if I felt 10000hours wasn't being run in the way it was sold to me. However for this risk to happen there would need to be a significant number of St Mirren supporters all decide to cancel their membership of 10000hours in the full knowledge that their actions will mean 10000hours can't repay their debts.

I think St Mirren fans are stupid but even I don't think they've be so stupid as to turn the gun on themselves.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Head. Brick Wall. Hurts.

Then why not try banging it the other way and get the information requested made available prior to the meeting on Thursday. It would sem that SMiSA have had a right good go at getting information from 10000 Hours and are feeling a bit...."Head. Brick Wall. Hurts."

There is no process for the fans other than being told there's a deadline take it or leave. There is no information being made available to fans to let them judge the risk they will be putting the club under.

Why not deal with the uncertainty by providing certainty. Solve the problem rather than try to handle the objection.

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So what is this risk that 10000hours are posing to St Mirren FC Sid? The only thing I've seen stated is that there is a concern that if member numbers drop off 10000hours may not be able to repay the Social Funder. I understand that risk - of course - and I suppose I've added to it by stating that as a member and a non St Mirren supporter, I would be quite happy to cancel my direct debit if I felt 10000hours wasn't being run in the way it was sold to me. However for this risk to happen there would need to be a significant number of St Mirren supporters all decide to cancel their membership of 10000hours in the full knowledge that their actions will mean 10000hours can't repay their debts.

I think St Mirren fans are stupid but even I don't think they've be so stupid as to turn the gun on themselves.

What you don't choke on your dinner Stu. Sounds great Stu....nice and easy....why can't we see the numbers behind this and judge for ourselves. If there is no risk, then what are SMISA banging on about? Why not just release the information and we can put it to bed and all rest easy. That will push the membership numbers up further mitigating the risk and we'll get SMISA's £50K as a nice wee bonus.

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What you don't choke on your dinner Stu. Sounds great Stu....nice and easy....why can't we see the numbers behind this and judge for ourselves. If there is no risk, then what are SMISA banging on about? Why not just release the information and we can put it to bed and all rest easy. That will push the membership numbers up further mitigating the risk and we'll get SMISA's £50K as a nice wee bonus.

Sid, I hope you do get your figures. I've said that repeatedly. However from the other side I really wish that SMiSA would come out and speak with clarity about what their real concern is too. I can see the risk you are talking about, I just don't see it as being that great. Maybe SMiSA have the silver bullet? Doubt it, but maybe they do. :rolleyes:

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Sid, I hope you do get your figures. I've said that repeatedly. However from the other side I really wish that SMiSA would come out and speak with clarity about what their real concern is too. I can see the risk you are talking about, I just don't see it as being that great. Maybe SMiSA have the silver bullet? Doubt it, but maybe they do. rolleyes.gif

I don't believe that SMiSA are looking for a sliver bullet. They were prepared to back the CIC with £50K Stu, and were very much fan leaders in its early stages. Something has clearly got bolloxed up somewhere along the line. I just can't see the SMiSA guys fannying around with the future of the club. I'd do it just to see get a rise out of davidg; however SMiSA are a po-faced bunch that take shit like this very seriously.

As you will have noticed in my early posts I am very big on community and I actually do think that St Mirren has an excellent community. I want everyone heading into this feeling positive and sure that it is the right thing to do. In order for that to happen and the warm fuzzy feeling to be sustainable we need to remove all the doubt. Dafties like somer9 and animal, and when he was in the huff...GLS - can all be excused away based on general madness and self-interest. I am not so sure we can be so dismissive of SMISA.

My big fear is that we end up with a split room at the public meeting. SMISA trying to do what they did at the last meeting and getting shouted down. Starting the CIC with that sort of pish would be a disaster and not something I would sign up to. It has to genuinely be about the community. We need people on the Boards that will represent all fans. The values have been played upon heavily as part of the sales pitch; however the behaviours are not conducive to community, inclusion, representation, etc.

I would like to see 10000 Hours sort out their issues with fans and groups rather than sideline them or just bully them out of the picture. I am still very pro-CIC; however I would like to see a more positive approach to convincing fans it is the right thing to do. At the moment it is alienating members if the community rather than including them. Even the pro-CIC fans appear to be getting short shrift in terms of getting information. Its time to get it all out in the open now and exorcise any doubt. If we don't then its going to be one big bun fight that I won't waste my time or money on.

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I think Balfy mentioned that the main SMISA guys are on holiday so won't be at the meeting. The main risk is the funding, but we've been told the social funders wouldn't call in the admin guys and we can only hope that Saints fans wouldn't pull out en masse. An issue could be the price, compared to Ebbsfleet's £1.2 million for 75% and no real control it's a bargain.

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A lot of good points and good discussions going on....

Ideal situation for me would be, the current board take St Mirren off the market we remain debt free and still persue the money making ideas of offering St Mirren fans shares in the club through the 10 quid a month and 1877 club deals. All profits could go directly to the club (instead of a debt) because we are still functioning as a profitable business without it, we could continue to grow as a business and a football club. Sounds like an great business plan Mr Gilmour if you change your mind about selling ;)

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I don't believe that SMiSA are looking for a sliver bullet. They were prepared to back the CIC with £50K Stu, and were very much fan leaders in its early stages. Something has clearly got bolloxed up somewhere along the line. I just can't see the SMiSA guys fannying around with the future of the club. I'd do it just to see get a rise out of davidg; however SMiSA are a po-faced bunch that take shit like this very seriously.

As you will have noticed in my early posts I am very big on community and I actually do think that St Mirren has an excellent community. I want everyone heading into this feeling positive and sure that it is the right thing to do. In order for that to happen and the warm fuzzy feeling to be sustainable we need to remove all the doubt. Dafties like somer9 and animal, and when he was in the huff...GLS - can all be excused away based on general madness and self-interest. I am not so sure we can be so dismissive of SMISA.

My big fear is that we end up with a split room at the public meeting. SMISA trying to do what they did at the last meeting and getting shouted down. Starting the CIC with that sort of pish would be a disaster and not something I would sign up to. It has to genuinely be about the community. We need people on the Boards that will represent all fans. The values have been played upon heavily as part of the sales pitch; however the behaviours are not conducive to community, inclusion, representation, etc.

I would like to see 10000 Hours sort out their issues with fans and groups rather than sideline them or just bully them out of the picture. I am still very pro-CIC; however I would like to see a more positive approach to convincing fans it is the right thing to do. At the moment it is alienating members if the community rather than including them. Even the pro-CIC fans appear to be getting short shrift in terms of getting information. Its time to get it all out in the open now and exorcise any doubt. If we don't then its going to be one big bun fight that I won't waste my time or money on.

Sid, I don't know the SMiSA guys at all. I was a member at the start with them but I quickly lost faith in the group as they lost focus on their goal, got far too cosy with Gilmour, and started wasting the money they'd raised on towels and tea shirts. It was early days and perhaps they were still trying to get to grips with what they had but for me they appeared to be fannying around back then.

I wasn't at the last meeting, and I won't be at the one on Thursday either. I hadn't read that SMiSA were shouted down but if they were that's appalling behaviour from whomever was doing the shouting. However I have to say I've been frustrated reading Balfy's comments and the statements that have come from SMiSA in the same way that Michelle Evens behaviour frustrated me, or Somners Dads Army shite frustrated me.. I just can't understand why, if they have a serious concern they wouldn't state it with absolute clarity. Why issue a vague warning to St Mirren supporters rather than just make their point and let the fans decide whether it's a silver bullet, a reason for concern, a point for discussion, or just a load of wanky old pish from a bunch of guys who are in the huff cause they couldn't get the attention they wanted despite waving around a £50k cheque?

You and I will have differing definitions of what the target community should be or is Sid. I'd like to think that the 10000hours project would go far wider than just the St Mirren community if for no other reason that it would give me a warmer fuzzier feeling if I thought my £10 per month was being put to the best possible use throughout many towns, villages and regions covering a large number of charities and groups and not just being used to benefit some interests controlled by St Mirren supporters. But despite our differing opinions I've got to admit I've watched with a wry smile on my face as you've managed to twist and turn the debate so that the likes of Animal and Somner are hailing you as some sort of messiah. Hopefully Thursdays meeting will be well attended, everyone will behave like adults - like they did at Motherwell - and you'll all be able to emerge to post on the net saying that you got the kind of clarity that you want and that there is fresh momentum behind the bid. No doubt I'll have a bit of catching up to do over next weekend.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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The main point surely is it is not going out of SMFC either ?

Put yourself for a second into the shoes of a "private bidder".

Why would you buy St.Mirren if you had no emotional attachment to the club. How are you going to get your money back on the purchase ?

Bringing in players to sell them on would be one way.

Paying yourself a handsome salary for doing nothing would be one way.

Using your other businesses or other connections to leak money out of the club might be one way.

Selling club assets and paying yourself a mighty dividend might be one way.

If you can think of a positive way how a private consortium might get their money back out of a £1.5m cash purchase of St.Mirren Football Club without harming the football club then I'd love to hear it.

The fact is that the biggest single investment here is going to be £25k and for that those investors will have a tangible asset they can sell again in a few years if they wish in the shape of their 1877 shares.

Spreading the risk through the shoulders of a few hundred St.Mirren fans all making small monthly subscriptions is a low risk strategy given that those same individuals are the ones with the most to lose if the club should go under.

This isn't scaremongering, it's simple common sense.

... and the more fans that sign up, the sooner the debt is repaid.

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What new owners - its supposed to be fan ownership......if fans cancel the direct debits then we default on the debt and then we are f"k'd. If we are going to do this then people must understand they need to keep paying for at least ten years no matter how much of a balls up it turns out to be.

Everything in life has a risk factor built into it. Mortgage - you know you have to keep working to pay it off.

Unless fans get into financial difficulty I can't see many pulling out of the direct debit. I'm really surprised at you Sid given the number of positive posts you made on the fan buyout.

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Everything in life has a risk factor built into it. Mortgage - you know you have to keep working to pay it off.

Unless fans get into financial difficulty I can't see many pulling out of the direct debit. I'm really surprised at you Sid given the number of positive posts you made on the fan buyout.

LS, I understand how a mortgage works....mines was easy to manage as I took sole responsibility for paying it off. When you make it a joint mortgage you increase the risk. I know many a poor cnut that wound up divorced, skint and living on a pals couch as people change over time, circumstances change over time, environments change over time, expectations are not met.

This will be a marriage that has 750 people invovled in it......those people will change, circumstances will change, environments change, expectations will be disappoints. That's life. I tend to agree with you....I reckon that the membership will actually go up rather than down. If we go to the meeting tomorrow night and there's 2,000 members signed up, some paying more than the tenner-a-month...magic! If half of them find that the CIC is shite and not what they expected or fall out with football altogether becasue of the SPL / SFA nonsense then we might still survive.

I have had a look at the latest FAQ that talks about the finances. It is simplistic shite yet again and lacks the detail required for us to consider it properly. It also fails to state the f'k'n obvious and that is that the fans are committing to paying off £1.5Million of debt + interest.

There are some shades of grey in the FAQ response - the outstanding balance only mentions the social funders outstanding balance. Is it not the case that the fans subs will be used to pay out GLS at some point in the future - Is it not the case that there will be deferred monies owed to the BoD that needs to be repaid at some point?

We keep getting soundbite information releases from 10000 Hours that usually contradict verbal statements given at previous meetings or containing new information altogether. We need a warts and all document that outlines exactly what needs to be paid and when, what inteest rates are involved, what the T&Cs are - especially in relation to the fans not being able to sustain the payments. Instead of that we are getting blurb and blah, blah.

Why is it such a problem for us to be given full disclosure of the information, risks and potential outcomes of agreeing to fund the CIC to the tune of £1.5Million + interest....not to mention the £261,000.00 up front payment being made by the 87 club fans.

We can be trusted to complete direct debit mandates to support £1.5Million of debt, and yet we can't be trusted with details of what it is we are signing up to.

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