What "information" Is It That People Want ?

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

I've been articulating it very well for about a week now thanks. I have asked you to expand on how the CIC / SMFC works and what the implications are if it were to fail. You have chosen not to respond and resorted to phrases like "whining like a bitch".

I love playing insult ping-pong. It should be an olympic sport.

Sid how can you safe guard anything that involves investment ? Reality is we are Saints fans and as long as we the fans can afford to pay the direct debit we will. Sure there are bound to be drop outs over the years but on the same token there will be new members.

[St. Sid]

I think you need to check up on the definition of articulate.

I told you, I'm not interested in the CiC stuff.

I can't be interested in everything dear boy.

Mind you, I'm not slavering away at the keyboard shouting "NAEBUDDYS TELLIN ME NUFFINK BY RA WAY" whilst being singularly incapable of producing a concise and clear bullet pointed list of questions you actually feel are not being answered which is so simple that a Paisley resident could follow it. Innit.

That's a pretty inefficient way of communicating. There are far too many questions to ask as so little information has been provided - what little info has been provided is all subject to change and is conflicting with other current information available. Step one should be for 10000 Hours to provide some coherent detailed information. Once that is received then we will have something to base questions on.

The question has to be - why did 10000 Hours not have a document like that ready to go when they launched their "last chance saloon" rallying cry to the support to back their plans. It beggars belief that they have been caught on the back foot by the response of "What is the f'k'n plan stoopit?"

I'm here all week!

[One Anonymous User]

All the true sayings are coming to fruition, 'don't cast your cloot til mae is oot', 'show me your friends and I'll tell you what you are' and lastly 'beware, beware, beware of geeks bearing gifts'!!!!

[ktf]

All the true sayings are coming to fruition, 'don't cast your cloot til mae is oot', 'show me your friends and I'll tell you what you are' and lastly 'beware, beware, beware of geeks bearing gifts'!!!!

Great another alias. Just what this debate needs.

[ktf]

ANyway, the only information I am now interested in getting before the meeting tomorrow night at this late stage is will the f'k'n bar be open. It wasn't at the last meeting, which didn't help my mood at having to listen to SMISA and REA rattling on a lot of shite for two hours solid completely bevvyless.

A pertinent question!!! I'll see you there - make sure you say hi this time!

[St. Sid]

Sid how can you safe guard anything that involves investment ? Reality is we are Saints fans and as long as we the fans can afford to pay the direct debit we will. Sure there are bound to be drop outs over the years but on the same token there will be new members.

It is the point I am making LS. We do have a hardcore of fans that would buy a f'k'n rubber duck if you stuck a St Mirren strip on it - did you see the state of some bawbags because they were no longer available.

This "plan" is being pushed through using high pressure sales techniques. The detail has not been provided. Instead it has been a sale on an emotional level. An appeal to values and fears. Values such as fan empowerment, community, one town - one club, blah, blah. Fears such as Massone, KMG and scumgers, foreign investors, the scouse chaps that flirted with QoS.

We all understand that, we all share those values, we all share those fears. Fan ownership as a solution - great. Any fan would buy it.

However, the sales process stopped there.

I might need to have email at home to carry out a job, or just for the fun of accessing forums to noise up dafties. That is the desire for a solution - I don't just think great - I'll buy the Internet and go to the shop and hand over cash to some cnut claiming to be able to deliver the Internet.

If I want access to the Internet, there are a few parts to the overall solution....computer, modem, ISP, etc. If I lived in spam valley like Balfy & Div - there would also be finance required. I need to check that the various components are compatible...certain modems / routers will only work with certain types of ISP, etc. I need to look at the detail to make sure it will all work together. I might ask a friend to look into it for me - I might look at an Internet users group for advice to see what they reckon the best solution is - I will look at the instructions / recommendations from the various venders, etc. All part of the sales process.

10000 Hours are keeping the sales discussion on the CIC / SMFC solution at the values / fears level. They are selling it at the emotional level.

We have "friends" expressing concern about the solution and asking us to look at the instruction, compaitbility, etc. We have a user group in SMISA telling us they have tested the product and have concerns about the solution. When this happens it is wise to read the f'k'n manual. 10000 Hours are refusing to let anyone read the f'k'n manual until after the products have been bought and there is a no returns policy.

Now I am not saying ditch the solution. I am saying that we need to make sure it is fit for purpose and that when we get it home and try and use it - that it will work. It is a solution made up of many working parts. If one fails the entire system fails. We are not being given access to the terms of the guarantee.....

anyhow....point made.......although I am sure this post like others will get drowned in the usual....aye but where the list of information you actually want.

I want to read the f'k'n manual and so should anyone considering singing up to deploy this solution on our club.

[ktf]

It is the point I am making LS. We do have a hardcore of fans that would buy a f'k'n rubber duck if you stuck a St Mirren strip on it - did you see the state of some bawbags because they were no longer available.

This "plan" is being pushed through using high pressure sales techniques. The detail has not been provided. Instead it has been a sale on an emotional level. An appeal to values and fears. Values such as fan empowerment, community, one town - one club, blah, blah. Fears such as Massone, KMG and scumgers, foreign investors, the scouse chaps that flirted with QoS.

We all understand that, we all share those values, we all share those fears. Fan ownership as a solution - great. Any fan would buy it.

However, the sales process stopped there.

I might need to have email at home to carry out a job, or just for the fun of accessing forums to noise up dafties. That is the desire for a solution - I don't just think great - I'll buy the Internet and go to the shop and hand over cash to some cnut claiming to be able to deliver the Internet.

If I want access to the Internet, there are a few parts to the overall solution....computer, modem, ISP, etc. If I lived in spam valley like Balfy & Div - there would also be finance required. I need to check that the various components are compatible...certain modems / routers will only work with certain types of ISP, etc. I need to look at the detail to make sure it will all work together. I might ask a friend to look into it for me - I might look at an Internet users group for advice to see what they reckon the best solution is - I will look at the instructions / recommendations from the various venders, etc. All part of the sales process.

10000 Hours are keeping the sales discussion on the CIC / SMFC solution at the values / fears level. They are selling it at the emotional level.

We have "friends" expressing concern about the solution and asking us to look at the instruction, compaitbility, etc. We have a user group in SMISA telling us they have tested the product and have concerns about the solution. When this happens it is wise to read the f'k'n manual. 10000 Hours are refusing to let anyone read the f'k'n manual until after the products have been bought and there is a no returns policy.

Now I am not saying ditch the solution. I am saying that we need to make sure it is fit for purpose and that when we get it home and try and use it - that it will work. It is a solution made up of many working parts. If one fails the entire system fails. We are not being given access to the terms of the guarantee.....

anyhow....point made.......although I am sure this post like others will get drowned in the usual....aye but where the list of information you actually want.

I want to read the f'k'n manual and so should anyone considering singing up to deploy this solution on our club.

Oh dear, still at it.

Hypocritical so-and-so

[St. Sid]

Oh dear, still at it.

Hypocritical so-and-so

Admit it that's a belter of a post.

[ktf]

Admit it that's a belter of a post.

I'll admit nothing. It's a rake of pish!

[St. Sid]

I'll admit nothing. It's a rake of pish!

And yet no one is able to post anything beyond emotive bollox. I'm right and you know it. 10000 Hours are treating us like consumers and we are behaving like consumers. Pay your tenner-a-month and let someone else get on with doing to the work. That's not fan ownership.

At least SMISA have had a go at acting like partners only to be "sidelined" when they saw something they didn't agree or was it just that they didn't matter to 10000 Hours any more?

It's time for the fans to get off their fat lazy consumer arses and start behaving like they are responsible for the club. A tenner-a-month doesn't give you ownership.

[ktf]

And yet no one is able to post anything beyond emotive bollox. I'm right and you know it. 10000 Hours are treating us like consumers and we are behaving like consumers. Pay your tenner-a-month and let someone else get on with doing to the work. That's not fan ownership.

At least SMISA have had a go at acting like partners only to be "sidelined" when they saw something they didn't agree or was it just that they didn't matter to 10000 Hours any more?

It's time for the fans to get off their fat lazy consumer arses and start behaving like they are responsible for the club. A tenner-a-month doesn't give you ownership.

I have admitted that you have a point. However we differ in that I think it can and will be amended appropriately afterwards. It can't not. The sheer pressure of numbers stacked in our (R&F) favour means it will. Also the social funder(s) won't allow it to be solely corporate. I'd rather sign up now and work my arse off afterwards to ensure it becomes what it is meant to and always should have been. It's easier to steer a moving ship - but impossible if the thing is sinking!

[DLBud]

It's time for the fans to get off their fat lazy consumer arses and start behaving like they are responsible for the club. A tenner-a-month doesn't give you ownership.

You'll likely turn up tomorrow and ask nothing. You really are a wearisome wee man. You've tried to make your point several times over numerous threads and most people just don't give a f**k.

I'm pro-CIC 'cause it seems like a good idea and the tenner a month won't be missed fortunately but if fan ownership means boring, self obsessed knobs like you get involved then I might have to cancel my DDM.

The only consolation that your thread building has delivered is that we've been spared your usual close season "exclusives" on the transfer front.

[buddiecat]

The 87 Club Membership lists the following benefits:

• Free car park pass with reserved priority space.
  
• Exclusive game-by-game draw for guaranteed Directors’ box seating at either home or away fixtures.
  
• Your name on a new 87club members plaque, located in the stadium, noting your key participation in bringing St Mirren into community control.
  
• 87club business directory and online advertising - distributed among members to encourage fellow members to buy your products, or use your services.
  

The Non-Executive Membership lists the following:

Access to the directors guest lounge on match days for first year

Use of the club boardroom during normal office hours for business meetings

Presumably the CIC will be paying St. Mirren FC for the use of the club's facilities?

the cic have stated they will not be in a position to provide monies to the club until they produce a profit, so no i don't think they will be paying, could be wrong though

[St. Sid]

I have admitted that you have a point. However we differ in that I think it can and will be amended appropriately afterwards. It can't not. The sheer pressure of numbers stacked in our (R&F) favour means it will. Also the social funder(s) won't allow it to be solely corporate. I'd rather sign up now and work my arse off afterwards to ensure it becomes what it is meant to and always should have been. It's easier to steer a moving ship - but impossible if the thing is sinking!

Not if the rank and file continue to behave like consumers, pay their money and assume they get fan ownership in return. No one appears to have read the draft constitution, no one appears to understand the CIC / SMFC plan in any level of detail. What makes you think that will change? If 10000 Hours asked for 12 people at the meeting to step foward to become part of the working group for the constitution they would be lucky to get 2 people never mind twelve. The constitution will not be improved because people will just pay their tenner and that will be that. The minute something happens they don't like or agree with they'll stop paying their tenner.

That is the nature of constituted organisations. When the numbers drop their will be another rallying call based on fear and a few more fans may start paying again. There is no fan ownership in this - there will not be a single directive to the BoD of SMFC. Fans are consumers, and enjoy being consumers. As LS says, we couldn;t give a toss about the politics in the club. A few beers, watch the game, moan like f"k about the defeats, celebrate the victories. The tenner-a-month is an investment for someone else to control the club - because the rank and file consumer fans can't be arsed.

[St. Sid]

You'll likely turn up tomorrow and ask nothing. You really are a wearisome wee man. You've tried to make your point several times over numerous threads and most people just don't give a f**k.

I'm pro-CIC 'cause it seems like a good idea and the tenner a month won't be missed fortunately but if fan ownership means boring, self obsessed knobs like you get involved then I might have to cancel my DDM.

The only consolation that your thread building has delivered is that we've been spared your usual close season "exclusives" on the transfer front.

There you have it - another perfect example of a consumer fan that doesn't actually give a toss about fan ownership. No interest in fan ownership or having a say in the running of the club. Will pay their tenner - something will happen they don't like and they'll cancel their tenner.

[DLBud]

There you have it - another perfect example of a consumer fan that doesn't actually give a toss about fan ownership. No interest in fan ownership or having a say in the running of the club. Will pay their tenner - something will happen they don't like and they'll cancel their tenner.

What makes you an expert on the average fan? The current custodians want out and this plan, which they seem to think will work, seems like a viable option. If this gives fans a say in the running of the club then that may well be a good thing but I, and I'm sure many others are the same, don't have the time or inclination to get involved and would much rather trust others to run the club as I trusted those that came before them.

Plenty of things have happened to our club over the years that I didn't "like" and I still go, home and away, every season which costs me significantly more than the tenner a month 10,000 hours is looking for so if someone makes a decision I don't like in future I'll have a bit of a rant with my mates at the next game and quickly move on to other, more important, things.

Everyone doesn't require the forensic level of detail you seem to (although you don't seem quite sure what that actually is other than "detail") but if you know what you want answered then get along tomorrow night and ask away but don't presume to judge others because we have different opinions and lives outside of the B&W Army forum.

Edited June 6, 2012 by DLBud

[ktf]

The only consolation that your thread building has delivered is that we've been spared your usual close season "exclusives" on the transfer front.

[ktf]

Not if the rank and file continue to behave like consumers, pay their money and assume they get fan ownership in return. No one appears to have read the draft constitution, no one appears to understand the CIC / SMFC plan in any level of detail. What makes you think that will change? If 10000 Hours asked for 12 people at the meeting to step foward to become part of the working group for the constitution they would be lucky to get 2 people never mind twelve. The constitution will not be improved because people will just pay their tenner and that will be that. The minute something happens they don't like or agree with they'll stop paying their tenner.

That is the nature of constituted organisations. When the numbers drop their will be another rallying call based on fear and a few more fans may start paying again. There is no fan ownership in this - there will not be a single directive to the BoD of SMFC. Fans are consumers, and enjoy being consumers. As LS says, we couldn;t give a toss about the politics in the club. A few beers, watch the game, moan like f"k about the defeats, celebrate the victories. The tenner-a-month is an investment for someone else to control the club - because the rank and file consumer fans can't be arsed.

So... How is this 10000 Hrs' or REA's fault? Stu Dick was right, and I agree with you, it appears the average St Mirren fan is too stupid to get it. However, it doesn't need everyone on board to change things, just a quorum - in sure between us all, we can find a good enough number to set the thing straight. Don't stress John, chill. Sign the bloody form - we'll make sure it'll be ok. I promise you, it can't not be.

[St. Sid]

What makes you an expert on the average fan? The current custodians want out and this plan, which they seem to think will work, seems like a viable option. If this gives fans a say in the running of the club then that may well be a good thing but I, and I'm sure many others are the same, don't have the time or inclination to get involved and would much rather trust others to run the club as I trusted those that came before them.

Plenty of things have happened to our club over the years that I didn't "like" and I still go, home and away, every season which costs me significantly more than the tenner a month 10,000 hours is looking for so if someone makes a decision I don't like in future I'll have a bit of a rant with my mates at the next game and quickly move on to other, more important, things.

Everyone doesn't require the forensic level of detail you seem to (although you don't seem quite sure what that actually is other than "detail") but if you know what you want answered then get along tomorrow night and ask away but don't presume to judge others because we have different opinions and lives outside of the B&W Army forum.

If, but, mibbaes...seems to be.....you don't appear to know what it is.

However, you are actually agreeing with me. Fans don't have the inclination to get involved. That's why it is not fan ownership. It is the fans paying for someone else to own the club on their behalf......to act as "custodians" on their behalf. And you are the first poster on here to display the sort of commitment that is required for it to work.

[Big Fras]

I'd like to know what the consortium, or certain members of it, feel about one of the other major parties in the "48% crew" being in a possible position to be running the show.

I've heard the current BoD say lots of lovely things about the CiC in recent months/years, but as soon as GLS pops along, the sound of silence from the politburo is noticeable.

If they have concerns, then why not air them, in the same way that the "positives" have been bigged up at every available opportunity. If the "negatives" are not insurmountable, then a word of support from SG & Co for the CiC, as they have done all along, may help Richard and his team enormously in the current climate.

SG & Co have been the biggest PR for the CiC thus far, with their public statements of "preferred bidder status". If something has changed their mind, then they should be even-handed enough to let us know.

[St. Sid]

So... How is this 10000 Hrs' or REA's fault? Stu Dick was right, and I agree with you, it appears the average St Mirren fan is too stupid to get it. However, it doesn't need everyone on board to change things, just a quorum - in sure between us all, we can find a good enough number to set the thing straight. Don't stress John, chill. Sign the bloody form - we'll make sure it'll be ok. I promise you, it can't not be.

I'm not stressed ktf. I believe that the average fan understands what the CIC is just fine. It is not fan ownership. No average fan expects or even wants a say in decisons. I certainly don't. Owners that will listen to them on key issues would be a nice bonus. If we don't get our way on everything so f"k. DLBud is bang on the money.

This is not fan ownership, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth a tenner-a-month.

[St. Sid]

I'd like to know what the consortium, or certain members of it, feel about one of the other major parties in the "48% crew" being in a possible position to be running the show.

I've heard the current BoD say lots of lovely things about the CiC in recent months/years, but as soon as GLS pops along, the sound of silence from the politburo is noticeable.

If they have concerns, then why not air them, in the same way that the "positives" have been bigged up at every available opportunity. If the "negatives" are not insurmountable, then a word of support from SG & Co for the CiC, as they have done all along, may help Richard and his team enormously in the current climate.

SG & Co have been the biggest PR for the CiC thus far, with their public statements of "preferred bidder status". If something has changed their mind, then they should be even-handed enough to let us know.

No point stressing over it. The last public meeting was a complete disaster. The f'k'n bar was shut for a start. SG wasn't there, GLS wasn't there. No cnut bothered turning up in fact - all the dafties raging over the last week in defence of the CIC never bothered their arse to turn up either. It was basically a game of f"k you ping pong between SMiSA and REA. I spent most of the meeting with my head in my hands in much the same way as I hope every other cnut has been feeling about the posts I've been making over the last week.

If SG is not at the meeting tomorrow night then it will be off to a very bad start. I expect a full turn out for this meeting and that includes SMISA, somner9 and the CIC knockers plus cnuts like ktf, div, davidg, etc that never bothered their arses to turn up to the last meeting. The turnout at the last meeting was a f'k'n disgrace. Where was all this support for REA and the CIC at that meeting. Even SPS's dug didnae pop in to the meeting and it was spotted having a shite on the half way line.

You fannies are all full of opinions.....when challenged your quick to get "stressed" and defend your vague beliefs, rights or whatever wankery floats your boats. Where were all these Internet warriors when REA was getting a roasting off of SMISA? Has anyone done their homework for tomorrow nights meeting to support REA in countering the criticism that SMiSA and whoever else might creep out of the woodwork?

SMISA and REA had one of the key debates that covered a wealth of information about the CIC. More detail than we have seen so far. No cnut bothered their arse to turn up and support either side. It's as funny as f"k that I have been challenged about going to the meeting. Other than REA I'm probably the only cnut that has attended all of the public meetings.

So if you are serious about supporting the CIC get off you fat lazy consumer arses and show the guy the support he deserves.

[Vambo57]

Who is the Social Funder(s)?

What are the T&C’s associated with the agreement between 10000Hours and that organisation?

Will the Social Funder be formally unveiled at next week’s meeting?

Will there be an opportunity for Q&A with this party(s)?

Who are the Void Investors?

What are the T&C’s associated with the agreement between 10000Hours and those organisations?

Will any/all the Void Investors be formally unveiled at next week’s meeting?

Will there be an opportunity for Q&A with this party(s)?

Which Community organisations are still currently involved with 10000Hours?

Will any of the current Community groups be formally unveiled at next week’s meeting?

Will there be an opportunity for Q&A with this party(s)?

Erm... the meeting is tomorrow, not next week.... just in case

[St. Sid]

Erm... the meeting is tomorrow, not next week.... just in case

Getting his excuses in early.

[Stuart Dickson]

Not if the rank and file continue to behave like consumers, pay their money and assume they get fan ownership in return. No one appears to have read the draft constitution, no one appears to understand the CIC / SMFC plan in any level of detail. What makes you think that will change? If 10000 Hours asked for 12 people at the meeting to step foward to become part of the working group for the constitution they would be lucky to get 2 people never mind twelve. The constitution will not be improved because people will just pay their tenner and that will be that. The minute something happens they don't like or agree with they'll stop paying their tenner.

That is the nature of constituted organisations. When the numbers drop their will be another rallying call based on fear and a few more fans may start paying again. There is no fan ownership in this - there will not be a single directive to the BoD of SMFC. Fans are consumers, and enjoy being consumers. As LS says, we couldn;t give a toss about the politics in the club. A few beers, watch the game, moan like f"k about the defeats, celebrate the victories. The tenner-a-month is an investment for someone else to control the club - because the rank and file consumer fans can't be arsed.

Fans are just consumers - that's absolutely true.

It's one of the dynamics that will interest me going forward if 10000hours happens. It will interest me to see who steps forward to nominate themselves, to see and read their agendas and to watch their performance to see how they cope because those consumers are going to go along to football matches and they are going to find that enjoying the afternoon will become substantially more difficult as supporters will either want to talk to them, or will want to barrack them depending on how things are going on the park. The idea that an elected member will just sit with their mates in their usual stand is just bizarre.

There has already been a string of people you would have thought would be interested in the position rule themselves out so it'll be interesting to see what is left and to see how capable they are.