What "information" Is It That People Want ?

[Bud the Baker]

The 87 Club Membership lists the following benefits:

• Free car park pass with reserved priority space.
  
• Exclusive game-by-game draw for guaranteed Directors’ box seating at either home or away fixtures.
  
• Your name on a new 87club members plaque, located in the stadium, noting your key participation in bringing St Mirren into community control.
  
• 87club business directory and online advertising - distributed among members to encourage fellow members to buy your products, or use your services.
  
• 87club exclusive events
  87club members and a guest can attend exclusive Q&A sessions with the club manager and first-team squad members.
  Invitation to attend the official team pre-season photograph session,meet the new squad and bring your camera to grab some memories!
  Invitation to new kit pre-launch events allowing 87club members to own the new strips before anyone else.
  

The Non-Executive Membership lists the following:

Access to the directors guest lounge on match days for first year

Use of the club boardroom during normal office hours for business meetings

Free alcoholic and soft drinks and snacks on a match day.

Club suit and tie.

Presumably the CIC will be paying St. Mirren FC for the use of the club's facilities?

I asked pretty much the same question on 10000hours (the red inserts are mine) website and this was the answer I got

Non of the 87 Club events you list as events that the club uses to raise any money.

As ever anytihng that the CIC uses which costs the club money the CIC will pay for they are afterall two separate businesses

Their opinion seems to be if the idea is new to SMFC then they it won't affect club revenue and they also seem to think it's fine to use the clubs facilities as long as it doesn't cost the club money.

Having said that the free parking is new to me and along with the free drinks & snacks for 1877 members on match day you've got to wonder what category these perks will fall into.

[St. Sid]

Fans are just consumers - that's absolutely true.

It's one of the dynamics that will interest me going forward if 10000hours happens. It will interest me to see who steps forward to nominate themselves, to see and read their agendas and to watch their performance to see how they cope because those consumers are going to go along to football matches and they are going to find that enjoying the afternoon will become substantially more difficult as supporters will either want to talk to them, or will want to barrack them depending on how things are going on the park. The idea that an elected member will just sit with their mates in their usual stand is just bizarre.

There has already been a string of people you would have thought would be interested in the position rule themselves out so it'll be interesting to see what is left and to see how capable they are.

I always think it is best to start with a fairly open door policy. If the org tries to start with a low number of committee members it leaves itself wide open to the conspiracy theorists and as FTOF pointed out we have our fair share of tinfoil hat wearers. As is always the case all of the committee places will not be taken up. There'll be a couple of nuttes that will quickly take the huff about some miniscule bollox, and there'll be a couple that will slope off when they realise there's no sausage rolls in it for them. The Chair will talk a lot of shite and bully everyone until they are no more than puppets raising their hands when required, and the secretary will be left to do all the work.

[Stuart Dickson]

I won't be there tomorrow and I'm disappointed about it. However I have completed my direct debit, I've read the constitution, followed the debate online and read everything on the 10000hours website. I've also been to an SEN conference and have a good understanding of the potential of what 10000hours are trying to do, and I understand the network behind Social Enterprises and have seen first hand some of the process whilst working towards doing something similar through here.

I'm sure it'll be an interesting meeting, hopefully more productive than the one I attended. I said several days ago that I don't believe the rank and file St Mirren supporter is interested in all the details of the bid and certainly not the level Sid and Yflab have been demanding. Certainly there hasn't been a response or the understanding of the draft constitution that you would possibly have expected from such devout followers of a football club. However I do hope for those who are interested that they will be given access to the information they are looking for. I'd also side with ktf when he says that no matter the initial structure for the CIC to remain viable it needs to keep it's members on board, and if the members are on board they are going to have the power to change the constitution - which is something that should constantly be happening anyway as the group evolves.

I suppose the key question tomorrow night should be if there is a default who would be the main creditor at each stage until all debts are repaid.

[Stuart Dickson]

I always think it is best to start with a fairly open door policy. If the org tries to start with a low number of committee members it leaves itself wide open to the conspiracy theorists and as FTOF pointed out we have our fair share of tinfoil hat wearers. As is always the case all of the committee places will not be taken up. There'll be a couple of nuttes that will quickly take the huff about some miniscule bollox, and there'll be a couple that will slope off when they realise there's no sausage rolls in it for them. The Chair will talk a lot of shite and bully everyone until they are no more than puppets raising their hands when required, and the secretary will be left to do all the work.

Actually I recognise all of that quite well.

Sid, if you cast your mind way back I said ages ago that it was one of the reasons why it was important for club supporters to realise that actually the community element is so important. Amongst that group you will have people who may not be St Mirren supporters but who will have experience of being involved in exactly those kinds of organisations and who will be capable of taking a principled stand on behalf of their members. I also said the election campaigns would be most entertaining.

[ktf]

No point stressing over it. The last public meeting was a complete disaster. The f'k'n bar was shut for a start. SG wasn't there, GLS wasn't there. No cnut bothered turning up in fact - all the dafties raging over the last week in defence of the CIC never bothered their arse to turn up either. It was basically a game of f"k you ping pong between SMiSA and REA. I spent most of the meeting with my head in my hands in much the same way as I hope every other cnut has been feeling about the posts I've been making over the last week.

If SG is not at the meeting tomorrow night then it will be off to a very bad start. I expect a full turn out for this meeting and that includes SMISA, somner9 and the CIC knockers plus cnuts like ktf, div, davidg, etc that never bothered their arses to turn up to the last meeting. The turnout at the last meeting was a f'k'n disgrace. Where was all this support for REA and the CIC at that meeting. Even SPS's dug didnae pop in to the meeting and it was spotted having a shite on the half way line.

You fannies are all full of opinions.....when challenged your quick to get "stressed" and defend your vague beliefs, rights or whatever wankery floats your boats. Where were all these Internet warriors when REA was getting a roasting off of SMISA? Has anyone done their homework for tomorrow nights meeting to support REA in countering the criticism that SMiSA and whoever else might creep out of the woodwork?

SMISA and REA had one of the key debates that covered a wealth of information about the CIC. More detail than we have seen so far. No cnut bothered their arse to turn up and support either side. It's as funny as f"k that I have been challenged about going to the meeting. Other than REA I'm probably the only cnut that has attended all of the public meetings.

So if you are serious about supporting the CIC get off you fat lazy consumer arses and show the guy the support he deserves.

f**k sake! I was in Chelmsford, Essex. Tonight though. I'll be in St Mirren Park, Greenhill Road, Paisley, Renfrewshire - so ram it!

[St. Sid]

f**k sake! I was in Chelmsford, Essex. Tonight though. I'll be in St Mirren Park, Greenhill Road, Paisley, Renfrewshire - so ram it!

So you never bothered your arse along with the other 750 signed up die hard, fight to the death CIC supporters then.......come on, let's hear the excuses....your dug ran away with your bus pass...blah, blah, blah.......SMISA got a free hand to rip into REA with just a few brave souls there to support REA. As a result of the indifference of the die hard CIC supporters SMISA have been able to land a few free punches on the CIC. REA did well, but he was on the ropes. SMISA have done there homework. They will be there again tonight and with other CIC-knockers sensing blood I expect more dissenters to turf up. The CIC hardcore haven't even bothered to read the f'k'n constitution. Care about the future od the club my arse.

[Guest somner9]

Can 10000 hours explain why it's called St Mirren Fans Co-operative, when it does not adhere to co-operative values & principles

PRINCIPLES: Democratic Member Control - involved in the democratic process voting on board members and make up.

Member economic participation - not involved in the key commercial and economic decisions - giving away revenue generating opportunities etc

VALUES: Democracy - (See above Principle on member democratic control)

Equality - not involved in the key membership (Board make up) commercial and economic decisions - giving away revenue generating opportunities etc

http://www.ica.coop/coop/principles.html

[Bud the Baker]

How many have signed up for the 1877 club and what happens to GLS's creditor status if no-one does - will it mean no sale or will the offer be open ended?

[St. Sid]

I was always under the impression that the consortium where putting some money back into the club and getting some form of membership. I think they were coming back in as corporate members under the old CIC structure. Are they coming back in as 1877 club members as part of their deal?

[TsuMirren]

So you never bothered your arse along with the other 750 signed up die hard, fight to the death CIC supporters then.......come on, let's hear the excuses....your dug ran away with your bus pass...blah, blah, blah.......SMISA got a free hand to rip into REA with just a few brave souls there to support REA. As a result of the indifference of the die hard CIC supporters SMISA have been able to land a few free punches on the CIC. REA did well, but he was on the ropes. SMISA have done there homework. They will be there again tonight and with other CIC-knockers sensing blood I expect more dissenters to turf up. The CIC hardcore haven't even bothered to read the f'k'n constitution. Care about the future od the club my arse.

The last meeting was sold as being for "new" people interested in the CIC to go along and find out. It didn't really have the feel of the other meetings, it was a mop up of sorts. I must admit that had I know SMISA were going to kick off then I'm have gone along and jumped in to give some of my experiences on Ebbsfleet. SMISA could then have replied about how they were denied the chance to buy more shares etc etc and rambled on about conspiracy theories as opposed to the basic fact Ken McGeoch shouldn't have been showing anyone the contracts (doesn't matter who it was...and I don't believe for a second Rangers were going to buy us).

[St. Sid]

The last meeting was sold as being for "new" people interested in the CIC to go along and find out. It didn't really have the feel of the other meetings, it was a mop up of sorts. I must admit that had I know SMISA were going to kick off then I'm have gone along and jumped in to give some of my experiences on Ebbsfleet. SMISA could then have replied about how they were denied the chance to buy more shares etc etc and rambled on about conspiracy theories as opposed to the basic fact Ken McGeoch shouldn't have been showing anyone the contracts (doesn't matter who it was...and I don't believe for a second Rangers were going to buy us).

There had been very little information about what was going on with the CIC at that point. 10000 Hours were getting pelters for it. It's scanadlous that people didn't take the opportunity to get brought up to speed on what was going on with the CIC.

".........to give some of my experiences on Ebbsfleet." The meeting was torture enough without inflicting that on the poor souls that turned up - we'd have been taken out in body bags.

[Guest somner9]

The last meeting was sold as being for "new" people interested in the CIC to go along and find out. It didn't really have the feel of the other meetings, it was a mop up of sorts. I must admit that had I know SMISA were going to kick off then I'm have gone along and jumped in to give some of my experiences on Ebbsfleet. SMISA could then have replied about how they were denied the chance to buy more shares etc etc and rambled on about conspiracy theories as opposed to the basic fact Ken McGeoch shouldn't have been showing anyone the contracts (doesn't matter who it was...and I don't believe for a second Rangers were going to buy us).

That'll clear the room for campbell

[St. Sid]

Here's a good example of the sort of cold, factual information I would like to see. No sales fluff, wild claims, no claims to be better than your fellow fan, no super-fans telling you what you should think do. I'd like to see 10000 Hours tear away all the bullshit and just give us a cold, factual presentation. No rallying, no gospel singers, no cheerleaders.....just cold, measured, sober facts.

Part of the strength of Supporters Trusts like SMiSA, is everyone has a fair share in how it is run, and no one member has any greater or lesser say or ownership in the trust than any other.

SMiSA works on a simple principle of one member, one vote on voting issues whether it is on the appointment of board members in elections, or approving the use of the trust's funds.In this sense, everyone is free to make as little, or as much contribution to the trust as they see fit. Many of our members are content to pay their monthly subscription, seeing it as a donation to a group doing valuable work in helping promote St. Mirren in the local community alongside anti-racist and anti-sectarianist messages while others take on a pro-active role in helping both shape and achieve the trust's objectives and policies. No-one in SMiSA is ever pressured into doing anything that they do not want to, beyond our minimum contribution.

Being a member of SMiSA also allows you to get full access to any and all of our meetings, general, board and others. We enjoy regular Q&A sessions with both board members & the management team of St. Mirren FC themselves, and these are always keenly anticipated with ample opportunity to quiz those most directly responsible for the success or lack thereof, of our club on the big issues of the day. These events, beyond their importance of purpose also serve as opportunities to get to know a wide-range of Saints fans, that all have the club very much at the forefront of heart and mind.

With events such as these, SMiSA can be a very useful social hub in meeting & getting to know other Saints fans, especially for those living outside of Paisley itself.

We also actively promote an anti-sectarian and anti-racist message in the local community in association with the club to ensure it is seen as very much a family orientated, community based anti-sectarian alternative to that of the Old Firm. This is done through promotion of the "Show Racism the Red Card" initiative in association with the club and Renfrewshire Council at Primary School level via our Design a Poster competition.

We need a more sober approach from 10000 Hours. Information, not blah, blah...and most important a demonstration of respect for the fans. If you want peoples trust you don't behave like a wild west snake oil merchant - trying to hooplah people into buying shite that doesn;t work and then run out of town before they suss you out.

[St. Sid]

Sid - wonder what happened to that American/Canadian guy that turned up talking about "Soccer". He seemed to be 10000Hours version of Donald Trump - hey perhaps he is one of DT's consultants and was there undercover as part of one of the "International" bids that we keep hearing about just before a 10000Hours meeting.

He seemed like a well intentioned enough chap. He was looking to buddie up with the CIC to set up his own "thing" working on promoting football to local kids. He had experience doing that in Canada from memory.

It does make you wonder how many people like that are making up the CIC members? The constitution appears to make a commitment to supporting other CIC initiatives with funding from our CIC. Is that something that happens after 8 years when all the debt is paid - if so how much will be taken out of the club, and who will be responsible for allocating it to what organisations? It would be good to get a guage on the number of "community members". Most Saints fans will just pay their tenner....the community mob will be all over the CIC like a rash if there's a sausage roll to be snaffled.

[Guest somner9]

Here's a good example of the sort of cold, factual information I would like to see. No sales fluff, wild claims, no claims to be better than your fellow fan, no super-fans telling you what you should think do. I'd like to see 10000 Hours tear away all the bullshit and just give us a cold, factual presentation. No rallying, no gospel singers, no cheerleaders.....just cold, measured, sober facts.

We need a more sober approach from 10000 Hours. Information, not blah, blah...and most important a demonstration of respect for the fans. If you want peoples trust you don't behave like a wild west snake oil merchant - trying to hooplah people into buying shite that doesn;t work and then run out of town before they suss you out.

Quote

Part of the strength of Supporters Trusts like SMiSA, is everyone has a fair share in how it is run, and no one member has any greater or lesser say or ownership in the trust than any other.

SMiSA works on a simple principle of one member, one vote on voting issues whether it is on the appointment of board members in elections, or approving the use of the trust's funds.In this sense, everyone is free to make as little, or as much contribution to the trust as they see fit. Many of our members are content to pay their monthly subscription, seeing it as a donation to a group doing valuable work in helping promote St. Mirren in the local community alongside anti-racist and anti-sectarianist messages while others take on a pro-active role in helping both shape and achieve the trust's objectives and policies. No-one in SMiSA is ever pressured into doing anything that they do not want to, beyond our minimum contribution.

Being a member of SMiSA also allows you to get full access to any and all of our meetings, general, board and others. We enjoy regular Q&A sessions with both board members & the management team of St. Mirren FC themselves, and these are always keenly anticipated with ample opportunity to quiz those most directly responsible for the success or lack thereof, of our club on the big issues of the day. These events, beyond their importance of purpose also serve as opportunities to get to know a wide-range of Saints fans, that all have the club very much at the forefront of heart and mind.

With events such as these, SMiSA can be a very useful social hub in meeting & getting to know other Saints fans, especially for those living outside of Paisley itself.

We also actively promote an anti-sectarian and anti-racist message in the local community in association with the club to ensure it is seen as very much a family orientated, community based anti-sectarian alternative to that of the Old Firm. This is done through promotion of the "Show Racism the Red Card" initiative in association with the club and Renfrewshire Council at Primary School level via our Design a Poster competition.

If only 10000 hours was Smisa! i'd have been first to add my Direct debit. The sections in bold above define Smisa's difference to that of 10000 hours. Call it the Co-operative difference if you will!

Edited June 7, 2012 by somner9

[div]

Always wondered why SMiSA didn't get a bid together for the club.

Not having a go, just wondered why they didn't ?

[Guest somner9]

Always wondered why SMiSA didn't get a bid together for the club.

Not having a go, just wondered why they didn't ?

Cometh the hour, cometh the man!

[St. Sid]

Cometh the hour, cometh the man!

Now fans have a taste for it.........

We keep getting told 10000 Hours is our one and only shot at fan ownership. Surely that is for the current owners of St Mirren to say, and not the org trying to buy it.

[Guest somner9]

Now fans have a taste for it.........

We keep getting told 10000 Hours is our one and only shot at fan ownership. Surely that is for the current owners of St Mirren to say, and not the org trying to buy it.

When the 10000 hours epic is pronounced deed! and all the flak has cleared, could well have paved the way for a Smisa iniative??? Theres obviously an appetite for real fan ownership, time for them to up their game and seek consensus from the support?

[TsuMirren]

Balfy,

I was just picking up on someone elses post about SMISA meetings and conspiracy theories.

Did George Campbell not pick up his extra shares around the time of the last share issue, almost certain I read somewhere that was why the consortium has the overall majority. Did SMISA ever pick things up after the ground sale? Must admit there were all sorts of mixed messages around that time, the extra £1 million from the deal and "we'll no longer be servicing two debts" that saw fans assuming we'd suddenly be rolling in cash.

-----

With regards to Div's statement, the lack of a SMISA bid did surprise me a little also. That said, I'm not entirely sure of all the ins and outs. Would it have needed much work for the group to say that all member fees would pay for the offer? How long would it have taken to raise that amount? How many deals would need to have been done to defer payments? How many have £120 up front? At the group I'll not mention in order to not give John ammunition it took 29,000 or so paying £35 or so each to cover the £1.2 million and I don't think it was all paid up front...that said, Will's company did take £5 per member admin fees to pay himself, a mate and two students to jolly it up and abuse everyone on the forums.

----

As for Somner above, I'm not entirely sure whom he believes has power outwith OMOV and why would members vote on funds at the moment if the CIC hasn't taken over and each of us are only pledgers as opposed to fully pledged paid up members. Already mentioned above, but SMISA launching a takeover through all media outlets isn't guaranteed a response that will bring in £1.5 million up front and that would lead to deals (time consuming to vote on them all) or looking for social funding, i.e. going to possibly the same people as the CIC and saying "we support it now, it's all about the club" and missing out on any community element. Other takeovers have had the tag of a club in distress or a gimmick loaded once in a lifetime.

[div]

When the 10000 hours epic is pronounced deed! and all the flak has cleared, could well have paved the way for a Smisa iniative??? Theres obviously an appetite for real fan ownership, time for them to up their game and seek consensus from the support?

Too late for that I'd reckon but that will depend on what other shows are in town.

[TsuMirren]

Too late for that I'd reckon but that will depend on what other shows are in town.

The horror scenario is a story in the PDE or other papers of someone promising "a transfer kitty" and fans falling over themselves to convince themselves it isn't spin with a nasty undercurrent of no long term plan. We know Massone's name for example, but what if there is an Eastern European consortium or a sports group involving agents looking to farm players on. If the CIC is succesful then the club could look to tap in to the markets already there and perhaps do deals with other clubs...what's to stop us contacting clubs around Europe to take players on for even a 5% cut on a future fee should the development be absolutely obvious. "Saint Dortmirren'd" is a far better headline than "Saints in turmoil as squad is sold on".

[Guest somner9]

Too late for that I'd reckon but that will depend on what other shows are in town.

First rule of business, or is it ninth rule of fight club??? anyway...

It doesn't matter if you're not first to market with your offer, what matters is that your offer is better than the others!

The time is indeed right for that 'Better offer'

[dave.j]

looking at the info available. it seems that the CIC model is very similar to the existing Smisa model, i.e an IPS working under the rules of supporters direct, with similar objectives... However...

Why has a board been elected without proper legal, elections taking place?

the current "board" in effect should be known a a steering commitee, and once everything is approved, an open election should be held where members can run for election.

IT is also worth noting that as per rule25.2 of the draft constituition, the current CIC board can remain in place for 3 years. and as per rule 25.4, on that 3rd year's AGM, they can be reappointed, without going through the election process.

Infact, open elections to the CIC board don't seem to have been mentioned at all.

reading through everything, it seems that the CIC is in actual fact another Supporters trust, just with a bigger share than usual.

it is all very well having 52% of the shares... what happens if people are elected onto the Club Board without contributing money and purchasing shares, as has happenned at Firhill?

what has happenned there is the Trust in effect no longer have 10% of the vote via shares, as many people voting in the board room, don't own shares, but still have a vote a director.

[alanmurray24]

SMISA have had just as long as REA has had................and to date I dont think I have had any information as to their take over or even plans to do anything.

We have not had the information that is required to make a choice