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I think, added to that, the fact that the funder, who has loads of experience funding this sort of stuff ad working with co-op types models, is confident means that it is likely to be sustainable. They'd be out in a jiffy, if they thought it was dodgy!

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I think, added to that, the fact that the funder, who has loads of experience funding this sort of stuff ad working with co-op types models, is confident means that it is likely to be sustainable. They'd be out in a jiffy, if they thought it was dodgy!

ktf.....the exposure for Bii is very low. If 10000 Hours defaults on the loan they will still have a 52% shareholding in a football club to sell on. Bii are a very different animal to the previous investors that were involved. For a start they do not do any grants - they provide loans based on capital provided by the big banks.

The chaps that would have been taking a genuine risk with the £750,000.00 grant have already left the building along with other social funding companies. We never really found out why?

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Guest somner9

For the CIC itself to go into administration it's member subscriptions would need to drop to a level whereby it could no longer service it's debt repayments and/or it would be failing to generate any additional revenue at all over and above the member subs.

Members will drop in and out of the CIC but I don't see a scenario where the fans would all leave en masse and force the CIC into administration, do you ?

The extra trading and extra subs required to repay the other £600k over 3-5 years is a concern of mine, no question, but I still think it is do-able and with the right organisation I can't see why it can't be acheived.

Theres a scenario in play down the road a few miles away I don't think many saw a year ago.

Football business lives on a knife edge, we know this, we have cashflow issues each year. Next season i think it would be reasonable to conclude that there will be less money in scottish football. How much less, and it's effects???

Now there's a real and iminent scenario

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Guest somner9

ktf.....the exposure for Bii is very low. If 10000 Hours defaults on the loan they will still have a 52% shareholding in a football club to sell on. Bii are a very different animal to the previous investors that were involved. For a start they do not do any grants - they provide loans based on capital provided by the big banks.

The chaps that would have been taking a genuine risk with the £750,000.00 grant have already left the building along with other social funding companies. We never really found out why?

I particularly like this quote from BII's website:

"To be eligible for investment you will need to be serving a disadvantaged population"

we were always a shoe-in if thats the eligibilty criteria bounce2.gif

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ktf.....the exposure for Bii is very low. If 10000 Hours defaults on the loan they will still have a 52% shareholding in a football club to sell on. Bii are a very different animal to the previous investors that were involved. For a start they do not do any grants - they provide loans based on capital provided by the big banks.

The chaps that would have been taking a genuine risk with the £750,000.00 grant have already left the building along with other social funding companies. We never really found out why?

That's your understanding of it. Mine is that it is unsecured and can't be recalled in a similar way to a bank loan. You waxed lyrical about this very fact back in the mk1 days :)

We don't know the reason why the essennpee minister refused to sign off the grant funding element in mk1, this is true. But I think you and I are agreed that it was more to do with the Insecurity of the essennpee than of the CiC.

Edited by ktf
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Nope, the decision will be made by the SMFC BoD. It is made up of Tony F and GLS (St Mirren fans) & REA, CS and BC (not St Mirren fans). The majority of BoD members deciding the vote will be non-St Mirren fans. CIC Members won't even have a say never mind the rest of the St Mirren fans. The interim BoD appear to be fairly unanimous in their view that it would be better for SMFC to have a newco scumgers in the SPL. Surely this would be a good question to ask 10000 Hours rather than fans just making up scenarios to try and convince other fans to vote for a CIC based on speculation.

They've also stated, correctly IMO, that on a vote of this kind the members would need to be made fully aware of the financial implications of how they vote, and that they would have to demonstrate that this could be costed to the social funders.

I don't think there is any possibility at all that St Mirren will vote against a Newco Rangers regardless of what the fans are telling them or where the purchase of the club is. It certainly would be stupid to rush fans into a vote without all the information on the implications of what an SPL without Rangers would mean.

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That's your understanding of it. Mine is that it is unsecured and can't be recalled in a similar way to a bank loan. You waxed lyrical about this very fact back in the mk1 days smile.png

We don't know the reason why the essennpee minister refused to sign off the grant funding element in mk1, this is true. But I think you and I are agreed that it was more to do with the Insecurity of the essennpee than of the CiC.

ktf, 10000 Hours stood in front of us and told us that if 10000 Hours do not keep up the payments then the creditors will become the owners of the 52% shareholding. At the moment there is no debt against the club; however I'm sure 10000 Hours stated previously that they have the option to take out debt against the clubs assets if it decides it want to in the future. Remember.....it can be whatever 10000 Hours want it to be. They also mentioned at the meeting that they will be rewriting the SMFC constitution. There'll be a lot of power over the club in very few hands in the not too distant future. 10000 Hours members are making themselves the guardians of the club and it will be their responsibility to monitor, report and act on anything they see that is not in the clubs interests. Ditto the non-exec Board. All the touchy-feely trusting bollox needs to come to an end and a watching brief needs to replace it. SMiSA had a wee go at trying to do it before the deal was done and got stonewalled with confidentiality blah, blah.

So long as 10000 Hours owe money to Bii they will be running the show. Its a wee bit like when scumgers became the Lloyds Bank XI. They popped a chap on the BoD. Not much difference when Bii can dictate two BoD places. The way I see it just as it is now....the fans reps will be little more than Board flunkies running around trying to get fans to invest more / buy more shite.

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I rememebr when this thread was for asking questions and 10000 Hours were going to answer them. Was it just for the one day then? tongue.png

I think it was only advertised as a one day thing - they went for at least one and a half. 10000 Hours, over delivering!!!

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ktf, 10000 Hours stood in front of us and told us that if 10000 Hours do not keep up the payments then the creditors will become the owners of the 52% shareholding. At the moment there is no debt against the club; however I'm sure 10000 Hours stated previously that they have the option to take out debt against the clubs assets if it decides it want to in the future. Remember.....it can be whatever 10000 Hours want it to be. They also mentioned at the meeting that they will be rewriting the SMFC constitution. There'll be a lot of power over the club in very few hands in the not too distant future. 10000 Hours members are making themselves the guardians of the club and it will be their responsibility to monitor, report and act on anything they see that is not in the clubs interests. Ditto the non-exec Board. All the touchy-feely trusting bollox needs to come to an end and a watching brief needs to replace it. SMiSA had a wee go at trying to do it before the deal was done and got stonewalled with confidentiality blah, blah.

So long as 10000 Hours owe money to Bii they will be running the show. Its a wee bit like when scumgers became the Lloyds Bank XI. They popped a chap on the BoD. Not much difference when Bii can dictate two BoD places. The way I see it just as it is now....the fans reps will be little more than Board flunkies running around trying to get fans to invest more / buy more shite.

It's nothing like the rangers situation and you know it. As long as our membership stays at a manageable level, and we fulfil our social obligations, Bii don't care what we get up to. Lloyds were dictating how and what any money was getting spent on, effectively having a veto for ANY decision. Despite what somner, and now you, are trying to claim, this won't be the case with the cic.

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It's nothing like the rangers situation and you know it. As long as our membership stays at a manageable level, and we fulfil our social obligations, Bii don't care what we get up to. Lloyds were dictating how and what any money was getting spent on, effectively having a veto for ANY decision. Despite what somner, and now you, are trying to claim, this won't be the case with the cic.

That's the catch22 situation you'll find yourselves in. If you don't keep up subscriptions you lose the club. Bii and the rest of the creditors own us. If the subs fall and the CIC fails guess who takes control of the 52% of the shares.

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That's the catch22 situation you'll find yourselves in. If you don't keep up subscriptions you lose the club. Bii and the rest of the creditors own us. If the subs fall and the CIC fails guess who takes control of the 52% of the shares.

How does this differ from any other buyer? Other than positively... i.e my experience of social funders is that they will restructure and work with an org to see it succeed and make the payments. Banks will bring in administrators and liquidators without a second thought.

ETA: also, a single buyer and/or consortium could quite easily pull the money or run into difficulty (see countless examples), a fan owned company with the liability spread over 700 (?) people is much safer and only a situation where 100 or more folks pull out would see the funder look to step in to alter things. Why would a large number of buds, who love the club, put it into that sort of situation by pulling out at the same time?

Edited by ktf
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How does this differ from any other buyer? Other than positively... i.e my experience of social funders is that they will restructure and work with an org to see it succeed and make the payments. Banks will bring in administrators and liquidators without a second thought.

ETA: also, a single buyer and/or consortium could quite easily pull the money or run into difficulty (see countless examples), a fan owned company with the liability spread over 700 (?) people is much safer and only a situation where 100 or more folks pull out would see the funder look to step in to alter things. Why would a large number of buds, who love the club, put it into that sort of situation by pulling out at the same time?

So your point now is that Bii will be happy to keep taking cash from us for longer with interest in the same way as a bank will, leaving fans to keep funding the CIC whilst no money goes to the club. Is this going to drag on for 20 years now rather than the best case 8 years scenario? Bii can call in the debt and take control of the 52% shareholding according to the conditions that REA spoke of last Thursday. Although to be fair that wasn't mentioned quite as much as the two bidders so you might have missed it. tongue.png

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So your point now is that Bii will be happy to keep taking cash from us for longer with interest in the same way as a bank will, leaving fans to keep funding the CIC whilst no money goes to the club. Is this going to drag on for 20 years now rather than the best case 8 years scenario? Bii can call in the debt and take control of the 52% shareholding according to the conditions that REA spoke of last Thursday. Although to be fair that wasn't mentioned quite as much as the two bidders so you might have missed it. tongue.png

So your point now is that Bii will be happy to keep taking cash from us for longer with interest in the same way as a bank will, leaving fans to keep funding the CIC whilst no money goes to the club. Is this going to drag on for 20 years now rather than the best case 8 years scenario? Bii can call in the debt and take control of the 52% shareholding according to the conditions that REA spoke of last Thursday. Although to be fair that wasn't mentioned quite as much as the two bidders so you might have missed it. tongue.png

Bii can't just call in the debt when it suits them. The question was asked about the worst case scenario. That being, if the membership falls and continues to fall (bearing in mind, this is fans effectively turning away from the club they support. You obviously find that easy to do but the vast majority of fans support the same club for life!), and all avenues of restructured payment are exhausted. Ultimately the creditors will take control of the cic. Remember of course that the club will continue to run at break even and will be in no danger at any point as the 52% share will just be put up for sale again, exactly like it is now.

For ANY type of ownership it ultimately has the same worst case scenario, that being the creditors take control/ administration, so really the labouring of this point is a red herring.

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To be honest I'm sitting on the fence on this one, the whole timing of this spooks me on both sides of the debate. Is it a gun getting held with the threat of somebody coming in and selling us from under our feet or do we go with the fan based idea then getting trumped at that end.

I was all for the CIC thing but that much has changed I don’t know whether I’m coming or going who do I believe ,the waters have been mudded and I don’t know !!

So much at stake for the club that me and my family have followed through generations.

Hope it turns out the right choice so future generations of my family can have all the fun of ups and downs as the rest off us have had over the years !!

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To be honest I'm sitting on the fence on this one, the whole timing of this spooks me on both sides of the debate. Is it a gun getting held with the threat of somebody coming in and selling us from under our feet or do we go with the fan based idea then getting trumped at that end.

I was all for the CIC thing but that much has changed I don’t know whether I’m coming or going who do I believe ,the waters have been mudded and I don’t know !!

So much at stake for the club that me and my family have followed through generations.

Hope it turns out the right choice so future generations of my family can have all the fun of ups and downs as the rest off us have had over the years !!

well said, totally agree with you,
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To be honest I'm sitting on the fence on this one, the whole timing of this spooks me on both sides of the debate. Is it a gun getting held with the threat of somebody coming in and selling us from under our feet or do we go with the fan based idea then getting trumped at that end.

I was all for the CIC thing but that much has changed I don’t know whether I’m coming or going who do I believe ,the waters have been mudded and I don’t know !!

So much at stake for the club that me and my family have followed through generations.

Hope it turns out the right choice so future generations of my family can have all the fun of ups and downs as the rest off us have had over the years !!

It is true that what is on the table now from 10000 Hours wasn't what was initially hoped for. But the truth still remains that it is the only known about bid, it is an attempt and a good start at fan governance and ownership and is the only bid that has St Mirren people at the heart.

For the future of the club, only the CiC can be trusted to deliver security - IMO.

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Through all the twists and turns the commitment to debt hasn't changrd, though the figure has dropped. We also have a commitment to board reps and fan involvement.

So, what is the real issue John?

The debt hasn't dropped though. The selling price has dropped; however in CIC#1 there was £750,000.00 of grant money plus some of the loans making up the difference could be traded for Social Return on Investment.

"Commitment to board reps and fan involvement" is not fan ownership. The fans pay £1.5Million + for a 52% shareholding and yet they are not actually getting control of the club. They get to vote for some Board members. They get to direct the vote of some Board members through a convoluted process.

My issue is that fans have failed to negotiate their position in this. The fans take on all the debt. The fans agree to pay off shareholders. But the fans don't get a say in defining the CIC or a say in approving deals being set up that trade away their influence in the club. All of the financial risk is on our shoulders - not on the wealthy individuals that will form the BoD, not Bii who will control the individuals they are placing on the BoDs. We take a 100% of the financial burden and in return we get a very watered down version of fan ownership. We own the debt, not the club.

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The debt hasn't dropped though. The selling price has dropped; however in CIC#1 there was £750,000.00 of grant money plus some of the loans making up the difference could be traded for Social Return on Investment.

"Commitment to board reps and fan involvement" is not fan ownership. The fans pay £1.5Million + for a 52% shareholding and yet they are not actually getting control of the club. They get to vote for some Board members. They get to direct the vote of some Board members through a convoluted process.

My issue is that fans have failed to negotiate their position in this. The fans take on all the debt. The fans agree to pay off shareholders. But the fans don't get a say in defining the CIC or a say in approving deals being set up that trade away their influence in the club. All of the financial risk is on our shoulders - not on the wealthy individuals that will form the BoD, not Bii who will control the individuals they are placing on the BoDs. We take a 100% of the financial burden and in return we get a very watered down version of fan ownership. We own the debt, not the club.

You would struggle to get 500 people in the boardroom.

Don't be absurd John. The fans have control, you know that, I know that.

There has to be a board of directors who make day to day decisions, the fans cannot run everything all the time.

Key decisions, crucially things like "do we vote yes or no on newco" are/will be completely and utterly in the hands of the fans.

The fans will own the majority shareholding. That's a fact, and all the negative spin in the world won't change that.

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Guest somner9

I'm sure the charge of the "far right" brigade will rush to correct me, but as it stands, with as far as we know, no £25k srtb members, and the Big Issue sellers lending the cic half a million pounds, is the level of indebtedness not now higher that the original cic proposal???

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Guest somner9

What is the point of referring back to the original CIC proposal ?

The only one that matters is the one on the table today.

Don't know if it's been clearly communicated to all and sundry that all the grants and loans written off if certain social targets were met have all gone in this current proposal. i.e. it's all debt.

Surely that would be an important change to communicate to anyone renewing their DD online??? No one like to be misled intentionally or otherwise

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