Ask 10000Hours On B&w Army - Online All Day Today

[div]

Don't know if it's been clearly communicated to all and sundry that all the grants and loans written off if certain social targets were met have all gone in this current proposal. i.e. it's all debt.

Surely that would be an important change to communicate to anyone renewing their DD online??? No one like to be misled intentionally or otherwise

The online FAQ on 10000Hours shows clearly what is being paid, when it is being paid, and where the money is coming from.

10000Hours have agreed deal in principle with the selling consortium to buy the majority shareholding for a total purchase price of £1.5 million over 3 years.

In order to fund this we will borrow £0.5m from a social investment fund with the remaining £1million coming from additional member subscriptions, turnover and the sale of Gordon Scott's shares.

The initial payment is funded based on the following numbers of subscribers;

• 750 x standard membership subscriptions at £10 per month (or an equivalent of £7.5k per month in member subscriptions) This in itself funds the £500,000 loan.
  
• 87 x 87 Club members each making £3000 lump sum payment.
  
• 9 x 1877 Non Executive board members each making £25,000 lump sum payment.
  

After 3 years the only outstanding borrowing should be the £500,000 loan from the social investment fund.

That will be paid off over an additional 5 years.

[RickMcD]

Don't know if it's been clearly communicated to all and sundry that all the grants and loans written off if certain social targets were met have all gone in this current proposal. i.e. it's all debt.

Surely that would be an important change to communicate to anyone renewing their DD online??? No one like to be misled intentionally or otherwise

I really think you should give it a rest. Plenty of us have reservations and we all have to make a judgement. There is always a risk. Do you go out in the morning? You have opposed virtually everything from day one and I personally feel that this latest post is mischief making.

If it all goes arse over tit, we will remember your warnings. If we morph into Newco Rangers or somebody else equally nasty, we'll remember how you helped.

[Guest somner9]

I really think you should give it a rest. Plenty of us have reservations and we all have to make a judgement. There is always a risk. Do you go out in the morning? You have opposed virtually everything from day one and I personally feel that this latest post is mischief making.

If it all goes arse over tit, we will remember your warnings. If we morph into Newco Rangers or somebody else equally nasty, we'll remember how you helped.

Sorry... and I'm not allowed to comment on a proposed takeover of the football club I've supported for over 40 years because???

Maybe you don't want everyone to aware of the level of debt that has to be serviced by the Cic,

I want to know and I'm sure most people pledging to the cic want to know what is being asked of them. Does it help to be ignorant of the facts? bury heads in the sand? didn't seem to help a few miles away and how they wish someone had made them aware of what might come when there was no proper accountability, and duty to disclose and inform.

[Reynard]

Sorry... and I'm not allowed to comment on a proposed takeover of the football club I've supported for over 40 years because???

Maybe you don't want everyone to aware of the level of debt that has to be serviced by the Cic,

I want to know and I'm sure most people pledging to the cic want to know what is being asked of them. Does it help to be ignorant of the facts? bury heads in the sand? didn't seem to help a few miles away and how they wish someone had made them aware of what might come when there was no proper accountability, and duty to disclose and inform.

You've said plenty. You are now simpy a rabid dog eating your own vomit day after day.

The thing will either fly now or it won't, we all "get" that you don't like it and you dont trust Atkinson and youd rasther the club was sold to a businessman or a group of businessmen who are unknown to you me or anyone else. Thats fine. Go and cut your grass FFS.

[RickMcD]

Sorry... and I'm not allowed to comment on a proposed takeover of the football club I've supported for over 40 years because???

Maybe you don't want everyone to aware of the level of debt that has to be serviced by the Cic,

I want to know and I'm sure most people pledging to the cic want to know what is being asked of them. Does it help to be ignorant of the facts? bury heads in the sand? didn't seem to help a few miles away and how they wish someone had made them aware of what might come when there was no proper accountability, and duty to disclose and inform.

Everyone has heard your views ad nauseam. You have expressed them time and again. No one has queried your right to express them, no one has interfered with your freedom of speech. The time for talking and discussion is over. You may get your way or you may not. Live with it. The rest of us have to.

[Guest somner9]

This Cic sounds like a nice club to be a member of.... not!

Co-operation???

No just the usual disrespectful nonsense when a question is asked or an alternative view put forward. it almost seems like theres some sort of orchestrated campaign to attack anyone with a different belief? Is that the christian thing to do?

[Reynard]

This Cic sounds like a nice club to be a member of.... not!

Co-operation???

No just the usual disrespectful nonsense when a question is asked or an alternative view put forward. it almost seems like theres some sort of orchestrated campaign to attack anyone with a different belief? Is that the christian thing to do?

You arent interested and everyone knows your opinion as you have been trolling here for two years now with your various aliases.

You might get your own way in the next day or so. You will have a big void in your internet life to fill after that.

[Guest somner9]

You arent interested and everyone knows your opinion as you have been trolling here for two years now with your various aliases.

You might get your own way in the next day or so. You will have a big void in your internet life to fill after that.

obviously you'll be able to tell all the good posters and mods here exactly who these various "aliases" are that I have posted under???

And I'll think you'll find that commenting on your football club in an open forum isn't defined as "trolling"? still perhaps you have your own definition? I know I'd like to hear it?

[div]

This Cic sounds like a nice club to be a member of.... not!

Co-operation???

No just the usual disrespectful nonsense when a question is asked or an alternative view put forward. it almost seems like theres some sort of orchestrated campaign to attack anyone with a different belief? Is that the christian thing to do?

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave to his question some time ago.

[St. Sid]

You would struggle to get 500 people in the boardroom.

Don't be absurd John. The fans have control, you know that, I know that.

There has to be a board of directors who make day to day decisions, the fans cannot run everything all the time.

Key decisions, crucially things like "do we vote yes or no on newco" are/will be completely and utterly in the hands of the fans.

The fans will own the majority shareholding. That's a fact, and all the negative spin in the world won't change that.

Div, it is your response to me that is absurd and devoid of infromation. The SPL vote will probably have around 14 day notice if we are lucky. The "guidance" process for fans to influence the CIC Board not the SMFC Board will take longer than two weeks.

You are saying the key decisions will be made by fans - there is no evidence of that being the case at all. The constitution contradicts that view. The get out clauses leave no guarantee of any key decisions being influenced by fans.

[div]

Div, it is your response to me that is absurd and devoid of infromation. The SPL vote will probably have around 14 day notice if we are lucky. The "guidance" process for fans to influence the CIC Board not the SMFC Board will take longer than two weeks.

Why would it ?

[Reynard]

Div, it is your response to me that is absurd and devoid of infromation. The SPL vote will probably have around 14 day notice if we are lucky. The "guidance" process for fans to influence the CIC Board not the SMFC Board will take longer than two weeks.

You are saying the key decisions will be made by fans - there is no evidence of that being the case at all. The constitution contradicts that view. The get out clauses leave no guarantee of any key decisions being influenced by fans.

If the fans were not happy with the way things were going they would cease their contributions. Thaat would be a failry big stick to be wielding as far as I'm concerned. There's no way they would be supportive of something they didn't like if the thing goes through. That's appealing to me. At the moment how do we influence anything as things stand anyway? Without pleasing the people who are making these payments then they will walk away from it. That does give us influence and it does introduce some sort of democracy into things. Our views on virtually everything will need to be canvassed, from our position on the Rangers newco to other things that matter to us.

The way the thing is set up right now isn't going to be the way it will be forever, it will evolve into what we (in the majority) agree it should be. If too many people get browned off with things then the numbers firing money into it will drop and it will fail. So people will have to be mindful of this when taking decisions affecting our club.

[St. Sid]

Why would it ?

You tell me otherwise................. I'm basing the process on the response to a question at Thursday's meeting. The members need to co-ordinate themselves to get x number of CIC members to start the process with the CIC Board. There is then a vote organised - might be online or otherwise. SMFC then need to investigate the implications of the vote and feed it back to the fans in the form of a recommendation report. I believe that is when the vote takes place. Even at that point it isn't set in stone. The SMFC Board would need to vote on it and they have their director responsibilities to the club as theur key drivers. This is why there is a best endeavours clause in the constitution. That does not sound like a quick and easy process.

The process has not even been developed as yet judging by the responses. There may be an online voting system for some votes. By your own admission, your not going to get 500 people at SMFC. A postal vote - I beleive there are laws in play about time allowed for everyone to respond - happy to be corrected on that.

We are getting - aye nae bother, we can do that responses with nothing to support it in terms of reality. Instead we have posts about how we can kick scumgers out if the vote takes place after the 4th of July. Reality check required on some of the bollox doing the rounds to try and push this through.

[St. Sid]

If the fans were not happy with the way things were going they would cease their contributions. Thaat would be a failry big stick to be wielding as far as I'm concerned. There's no way they would be supportive of something they didn't like if the thing goes through. That's appealing to me. At the moment how do we influence anything as things stand anyway? Without pleasing the people who are making these payments then they will walk away from it. That does give us influence and it does introduce some sort of democracy into things. Our views on virtually everything will need to be canvassed, from our position on the Rangers newco to other things that matter to us.

The way the thing is set up right now isn't going to be the way it will be forever, it will evolve into what we (in the majority) agree it should be. If too many people get browned off with things then the numbers firing money into it will drop and it will fail. So people will have to be mindful of this when taking decisions affecting our club.

You need to think through that process. CIC members stop contributing then the club is threatened. The debt to Bii is not serviced and they take full control of the 52% share issue. They can do want they want with it at that point.

[Reynard]

You need to think through that process. CIC members stop contributing then the club is threatened. The debt to Bii is not serviced and they take full control of the 52% share issue. They can do want they want with it at that point.

Thats the way business works at any level. If you cant pay your dues then you go bust. No matter whether you are a sole trader, a limited company a CiC or a charity. If you dont want the responsibility for running this in whatever way its set up then walk away and the burden then falls on an individual or a board of directors. Your choice, just as its my choice. If money stops rolling into the club for whatever reason then you make a decision, if it stops rolling in because the members of 10000hrs dont like whats happening you try and rectify the situation. If money stops rolling in because we stick a really shite team on the park and go down a division then you make a decision to rectify things. If it turns out we owe more money that we can ever repay then the sharks will circle just like they will regardless of how the business is operated. Thats life. You either back yourself to do the right thing or you dont here. I'm quite sure that once the thing is up and running (if) then steps will be made to get as many bodies involved as is possible and engage the support. If that doesnt happen then the risk is always run of things going tits up. Things can go wrong in any scenario you want to look at though. It would be up to us ourselves to get things right, I dont have a problem with that at all. It has been seen already that there are enough people concerned one way or another about our club that we want it to be around. SMiSA appeared for this reason too but it never took off for various reasons, mainly through apathy I reckon. At the moment we do have a decent board of directors that has run the club really well over the past number of years but the burden fell on a few individuals that we trusted to do the right thing. This way we can all get a chance to do the right thing, or not.

Whatever happens next the club will be getting sold and the club will then have a debt to service. How, and who the burden of making sure that gets paid falls on is relevant, but it wont alter the fact that income needs to be generated to pay it. Its not the fans fault that the current board want out, they did their bit, put their cock on the block for the sake of a football club and now they are fed up with it. I dont blame them really, I wouldnt remortgage the house or the business to keep the club going, would you?

[Guest somner9]

I refer the right honourable gentleman to the answer I gave to his question some time ago.

Div with your independent mod hat on even you would have to admit the continual shouting down, insulting or general badger baiting that a few on here deploy whenever a view contrary to endorsing everything 10000 hours has said, done or proposed is aired, does not show the merits of potentially joining said org in a particularly good light?

What at least one of the attackers above noted is that: one way or another this will be resolved re: 10000 hours proposal. So what kind of relationship do we want post bid? Is it the hate filled type that i'm continually targeted with re above posts???

If 10000 hours bid goes through i will be consistent in my approach, I won't attack other saints fans because they chose/wanted something I didn't, they believed they were doing what was right by them!

seems that whatever the outcome others have set their stall out differently. And as a group of st mirren fans that saddens me

[St. Sid]

Thats the way business works at any level. If you cant pay your dues then you go bust. No matter whether you are a sole trader, a limited company a CiC or a charity. If you dont want the responsibility for running this in whatever way its set up then walk away and the burden then falls on an individual or a board of directors. Your choice, just as its my choice. If money stops rolling into the club for whatever reason then you make a decision, if it stops rolling in because the members of 10000hrs dont like whats happening you try and rectify the situation. If money stops rolling in because we stick a really shite team on the park and go down a division then you make a decision to rectify things. If it turns out we owe more money that we can ever repay then the sharks will circle just like they will regardless of how the business is operated. Thats life. You either back yourself to do the right thing or you dont here. I'm quite sure that once the thing is up and running (if) then steps will be made to get as many bodies involved as is possible and engage the support. If that doesnt happen then the risk is always run of things going tits up. Things can go wrong in any scenario you want to look at though. It would be up to us ourselves to get things right, I dont have a problem with that at all. It has been seen already that there are enough people concerned one way or another about our club that we want it to be around. SMiSA appeared for this reason too but it never took off for various reasons, mainly through apathy I reckon. At the moment we do have a decent board of directors that has run the club really well over the past number of years but the burden fell on a few individuals that we trusted to do the right thing. This way we can all get a chance to do the right thing, or not.

Whatever happens next the club will be getting sold and the club will then have a debt to service. How, and who the burden of making sure that gets paid falls on is relevant, but it wont alter the fact that income needs to be generated to pay it. Its not the fans fault that the current board want out, they did their bit, put their cock on the block for the sake of a football club and now they are fed up with it. I dont blame them really, I wouldnt remortgage the house or the business to keep the club going, would you?

A good post....no rallying or spin. The only point I would make is that the statement in bold is based on spin from 10000 Hours being accepted as fact. We don't know anything about the other bids other than that they have "the clubs best interests at heart". If we are going to take everything being fed to us at face value.

[div]

Div with your independent mod hat on even you would have to admit the continual shouting down, insulting or general badger baiting that a few on here deploy whenever a view contrary to endorsing everything 10000 hours has said, done or proposed is aired, does not show the merits of potentially joining said org in a particularly good light?

What at least one of the attackers above noted is that: one way or another this will be resolved re: 10000 hours proposal. So what kind of relationship do we want post bid? Is it the hate filled type that i'm continually targeted with re above posts???

If 10000 hours bid goes through i will be consistent in my approach, I won't attack other saints fans because they chose/wanted something I didn't, they believed they were doing what was right by them!

seems that whatever the outcome others have set their stall out differently. And as a group of st mirren fans that saddens me

The split on the forum saddens me too.

I was a founder member of SMiSA back in the day (and still provide free services to that organisation who I have a lot of time for) and remember exactly the same arguments back then amongst the support. I also remember FOSMA and the work they did in the 90s being the cause for derision and political infighting within the support.

I don't condone any St.Mirren fan turning on any other St.Mirren fan, just as I will never condone fans abusing our own players either.

Everyone is uptight, there is frustration on both sides as people try to articulate their arguments for and against the bid. The not knowing what is on the other side of the wall should it go through or not doesn't help.

I'd just ask that everyone, regardless of their point of view, respect others and engage in meaningful debate on this, it's too important a subject to play games.

[TsuMirren]

So many believed Ken McGeoch was the big answer until certain things came to light. As of yet the CIC is yet to really do anything wrong, but it seems to have worse press than the chance of A N Other coming in. Look at the investment elsewhere around Scotland, just how many tales of real success are there? Killie in debt, Dundee Utd in debt, Hibs doing who knows what, Dunfermline in debt, Motherwell in a "share handover", St Johnstone could go anywhere now, Dundee blah, Livingston blah, Ayr's apparent money saw relegation, ICT get 250K then claim they're skint, Alloa probably over-spending, Clyde going nowhere etc. There's always an apparent black hole or a black shadow hanging over, hell add Raith Rovers and the obvious tale of Gretna plus the QOTS guy being warey...Airdrie also. There doesn't appear to be a black hole with Saint Mirren and the worrying part of the debt is to a social funder, on top of that WE have a chance to run the club we all supposedly love. It won't be pretty, it won't see huge levels of investment initially and it'll take time...it'll be sustainable and within our control though.

[St. Sid]

Div with your independent mod hat on even you would have to admit the continual shouting down, insulting or general badger baiting that a few on here deploy whenever a view contrary to endorsing everything 10000 hours has said, done or proposed is aired, does not show the merits of potentially joining said org in a particularly good light?

What at least one of the attackers above noted is that: one way or another this will be resolved re: 10000 hours proposal. So what kind of relationship do we want post bid? Is it the hate filled type that i'm continually targeted with re above posts???

If 10000 hours bid goes through i will be consistent in my approach, I won't attack other saints fans because they chose/wanted something I didn't, they believed they were doing what was right by them!

seems that whatever the outcome others have set their stall out differently. And as a group of st mirren fans that saddens me

Whilst I think there has to be some responsibility for "hate-filled type" nonsense on both sides of the debate on what is a very sensitive subject.

The critical point and I think I made it earlier is that St Mirren Football Club will continue to be dependent on St Mirrens fans buying tickets to watch the game and all the rest of the parafinalia that goes with being a Saints fan. Those fans are the lifeblood of St Mirren.

A certain percentage of those fans have decided for themselves that they want to add addtional risk to the club and are signing up to £1.5Million of debt. They believe this will give them more right to make decisions on behalf of all other fans who will still be investing large sums of money into the club. For that reason I suspect that the "hate-filled type" nonsense is going to roll on for some time to come. Just picture the scenes if 10000 Hours cannot fulifl the very dodgy promise that it will force the SMFC BoD to block newco into the SPL. You'd hope that the next couple of days would see the end of this nonsense. I suspect it will just be the beginning of a grumpier than ever support.

The owner / consumer relationship unites fans. We all understand how that works. When looking at the Killie Trust site for noise up research purposes I witnessed raging debates on all manner of nonsense. I cannae wait.

[Reynard]

A good post....no rallying or spin. The only point I would make is that the statement in bold is based on spin from 10000 Hours being accepted as fact. We don't know anything about the other bids other than that they have "the clubs best interests at heart". If we are going to take everything being fed to us at face value.

Well the only circumstance that the club will remain debt free as it is now is if the current board DON'T sell up. They have indicated that they want to sell their shares, so when they do get sold the club then has debt again. It doesnt actually matter who buys them, the debt will then be there whether the CiC is liable for it or whether a new owner is liable for it. There will be a debt to pay.

[Vambo57]

/SNIP/

" The SMFC Board would need to vote on it and they have their director responsibilities to the club as theur key drivers. This is why there is a best endeavours clause in the constitution. That does not sound like a quick and easy process."

The "best endeavours" clause is NOT a license to ignore or go against directives from the membership that they disagree with. It is to cover unforseen circumstances actually preventing the board from carrying out the directive e.g. illness or circumstances preventing action outwith their control.

Misrepresenting selected clauses from the Constitution does you no favours and - as I stated earlier - causes indecision in possible members decision to sign up. Indecision that you contributed to!

You need to think through that process. CIC members stop contributing then the club is threatened. The debt to Bii is not serviced and they take full control of the 52% share issue. They can do want they want with it at that point.

The Bii loan TO THE CIC is UNSECURED i.e. Bii would have no claim on SMFC assets.

Time you stopped your mischief Sid.

[St. Sid]

So many believed Ken McGeoch was the big answer until certain things came to light. As of yet the CIC is yet to really do anything wrong, but it seems to have worse press than the chance of A N Other coming in. Look at the investment elsewhere around Scotland, just how many tales of real success are there? Killie in debt, Dundee Utd in debt, Hibs doing who knows what, Dunfermline in debt, Motherwell in a "share handover", St Johnstone could go anywhere now, Dundee blah, Livingston blah, Ayr's apparent money saw relegation, ICT get 250K then claim they're skint, Alloa probably over-spending, Clyde going nowhere etc. There's always an apparent black hole or a black shadow hanging over, hell add Raith Rovers and the obvious tale of Gretna plus the QOTS guy being warey...Airdrie also. There doesn't appear to be a black hole with Saint Mirren and the worrying part of the debt is to a social funder, on top of that WE have a chance to run the club we all supposedly love. It won't be pretty, it won't see huge levels of investment initially and it'll take time...it'll be sustainable and within our control though.

Its a fine balance now though TsuMirren. There's been some very big game changers. The failure of CIC#1 - no Saints fan should ever vote SNP again - has made a massive difference to what the CIC will be and how it is funded. Losing £750,000.00 of free money into the venture is a pretty big boot in the bawz that should not be shuffled away as nothing to worry about. There was zero concern over the previous finance model - other than that the consortium would take more money out then they really should. Now the finance situation is different. I think it may be achieveable; however there's not much of a comfort zone there. The structure previously was arguably overly complex; however it did provide representation that was very clear. 10000 Hours had a clear role in a separate BoD - now its as messy as f"k.

Its not a bad venture, but its not a no brainer like the first plan. I was very borderline on it and may be convinced once we start to see the real numbers and how it works in practise. I suspect I am not the only one taking that view and that should be encouraging for those who have signed up to the CIC already and for 10000 Hours providing they actually deliver. I cannot be swayed at this stage though as the nature of the communication to fans is that of people trying to get away with it, rather than presenting its merits and properly addressing the concerns.

[Reynard]

Was just wondering if the sale to the CiC did go through and that was that. Would any of the folk not convinced just now join up? The alternative arrangement of a different buyer would not be there any more and therefore that argument is gone. Would anybody THEN look at things differently?

[St. Sid]

Well the only circumstance that the club will remain debt free as it is now is if the current board DON'T sell up. They have indicated that they want to sell their shares, so when they do get sold the club then has debt again. It doesnt actually matter who buys them, the debt will then be there whether the CiC is liable for it or whether a new owner is liable for it. There will be a debt to pay.

Nope, we don't know that. GLS's bids were confirmed as having no debt involved. It may be likely that debt is involved in the new bids; however we cannot claim it as a fact.