santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I reckon we could take ownership of the Burgh if we can get 10 fans to commit 2 ginger bottles a month. u would still be looking for your 15 mins of fame ya boring plunker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Replying to Somner9's original question, it's so nasty because that's what St.Mirren fans have always done best. Carp at the team, carp at the management and then carp at one another. But even by our standards, I've found a lot of the content of this thread pretty depressing. We're at a pivotal point for the club's future and it's really disappointing to hear so much negativity. I regard myself as reasonably bright but I've struggled to get my head round exactly what the CIC in its original form was really trying to achieve. Partly that was because the 10,000 hours campaign has to be the most amateurish I have ever witnessed. This has been pointed out before so no point in going over it again. I have no doubt,however, that they were and still are well intentioned and have the best interests of St.Mirren at heart. We know though that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A year or two ago if I had been asked if fan ownership was a good thing I would have had quite a few doubts and I still have some. The debacle up the road has changed that and if fan ownership really can eradicate the likes of capture by a Newco Rangers or any other crowd of assholes, we should go for it. What we all want is a successful and financially sound St.Mirren. Any investment involves an element of risk and hopefully no one is going to invest more than they can afford to lose. This could well be the last chance of achieving fan ownership. A lot has been made of one man one vote. OK for politics but I'm not convinced it's absolutely essential for a football team. Big committees quite often achieve hee haw and have a succession of greetin' meetins. I worry too that some guys still think they'll get picking the team. I've got a nightmare vision of 750 guys picking the team for the first game of the season. Can you imagine it? The vote for centre half. Cheesy 340, McGregor 360, Bobby Reid 25, Jackie McGugan 22, Willie Telfer 3. Trouble was in my nightmare, I was one of the guys that voted for big Wullie Telfer! It's make your mind up time big style now. There are difficulties out there but I believe the risks are worthwhile. Some of the alternatives might be the death knell of our beloved St.Mirren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Replying to Somner9's original question, it's so nasty because that's what St.Mirren fans have always done best. Carp at the team, carp at the management and then carp at one another. But even by our standards, I've found a lot of the content of this thread pretty depressing. We're at a pivotal point for the club's future and it's really disappointing to hear so much negativity. I regard myself as reasonably bright but I've struggled to get my head round exactly what the CIC in its original form was really trying to achieve. Partly that was because the 10,000 hours campaign has to be the most amateurish I have ever witnessed. This has been pointed out before so no point in going over it again. I have no doubt,however, that they were and still are well intentioned and have the best interests of St.Mirren at heart. We know though that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A year or two ago if I had been asked if fan ownership was a good thing I would have had quite a few doubts and I still have some. The debacle up the road has changed that and if fan ownership really can eradicate the likes of capture by a Newco Rangers or any other crowd of assholes, we should go for it. What we all want is a successful and financially sound St.Mirren. Any investment involves an element of risk and hopefully no one is going to invest more than they can afford to lose. This could well be the last chance of achieving fan ownership. A lot has been made of one man one vote. OK for politics but I'm not convinced it's absolutely essential for a football team. Big committees quite often achieve hee haw and have a succession of greetin' meetins. I worry too that some guys still think they'll get picking the team. I've got a nightmare vision of 750 guys picking the team for the first game of the season. Can you imagine it? The vote for centre half. Cheesy 340, McGregor 360, Bobby Reid 25, Jackie McGugan 22, Willie Telfer 3. Trouble was in my nightmare, I was one of the guys that voted for big Wullie Telfer! It's make your mind up time big style now. There are difficulties out there but I believe the risks are worthwhile. Some of the alternatives might be the death knell of our beloved St.Mirren. What a load of drivel, One man picks the team thats the manager whoever he might be at the time, scaremongering is not gonna derail the CIC bid, makes no difference whether your for it our against, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 What a load of drivel, One man picks the team thats the manager whoever he might be at the time, scaremongering is not gonna derail the CIC bid, makes no difference whether your for it our against, Quite right SPS - scaremongering is actually driving the CIC bid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 What a load of drivel, One man picks the team thats the manager whoever he might be at the time, scaremongering is not gonna derail the CIC bid, makes no difference whether your for it our against, My reading of Rick's post is he's actually saying that he has decided to go for it and he is explaining why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 What a load of drivel, One man picks the team thats the manager whoever he might be at the time, scaremongering is not gonna derail the CIC bid, makes no difference whether your for it our against, Obviously born without a sense of humour. Don't let it hold you back. I'm not totally happy with any of the scenarios before us and that includes the Co-Op/ CIC option. There is an element of risk whoever or whatever becomes the next owner of St.Mirren. I think the 10,000 hours plan might work well. if you don't like it I respect your right to do nothing. If you think my comments were meant to be scaremongering then possibly that indicates again the level of virtually paranoia which exists among the 'no' brigade. Those making the choice are at least backing a recognisable option. Those knocking it back are hoping against hope that something better crops up. Maybe it will. I can live with a democratic decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Obviously born without a sense of humour. Don't let it hold you back. I'm not totally happy with any of the scenarios before us and that includes the Co-Op/ CIC option. There is an element of risk whoever or whatever becomes the next owner of St.Mirren. I think the 10,000 hours plan might work well. if you don't like it I respect your right to do nothing. If you think my comments were meant to be scaremongering then possibly that indicates again the level of virtually paranoia which exists among the 'no' brigade. Those making the choice are at least backing a recognisable option. Those knocking it back are hoping against hope that something better crops up. Maybe it will. I can live with a democratic decision. SPS is actually very much pro-CIC....you pair of dafties are actually arguing about agreeing with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest somner9 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) SPS is actually very much pro-CIC....you pair of dafties are actually arguing about agreeing with each other. Thats RABID! scaremongering!!!! suggesting that perhaps we all might be saints fans and want what we think is best for our club some of the posters might want to have a wee swatch back at the title of the post before the spit their sugar puffs over the screen. Edited June 10, 2012 by somner9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Quite right SPS - scaremongering is actually driving the CIC bid The scary thing is the people who might wanna buy the club, do you want us to be another Livvy or worse Dundee, of course if you dont want the clubs own fans owning club then dont get involved with the CIC, Its a easy choice, But the bid will be in by Friday, Edited June 10, 2012 by santaponsasaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 My reading of Rick's post is he's actually saying that he has decided to go for it and he is explaining why. Do you never read anything right, i even put in bold for you ya moronic idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Obviously born without a sense of humour. Don't let it hold you back. I'm not totally happy with any of the scenarios before us and that includes the Co-Op/ CIC option. There is an element of risk whoever or whatever becomes the next owner of St.Mirren. I think the 10,000 hours plan might work well. if you don't like it I respect your right to do nothing. If you think my comments were meant to be scaremongering then possibly that indicates again the level of virtually paranoia which exists among the 'no' brigade. Those making the choice are at least backing a recognisable option. Those knocking it back are hoping against hope that something better crops up. Maybe it will. I can live with a democratic decision. i wasn't disagreeing with a few things you said bud but the bit i highlighted was ludicrous whether it was a joke or not, Edited June 10, 2012 by santaponsasaint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) The scary thing is the people who might wanna buy the club, do you want us to be another Livvy or worse Dundee, of course if you dont want the clubs own fans owning club then dont get involved with the CIC, Its a easy choice, But the bid will be in by Friday, Ifs, buts and maybes the chairman said he wouldn't do that, then he says he will sell no matter what, then back tracks to re-iterate that he wont sell to someone who doesn't have the clubs best interests at heart. You have swallowed the scaremongering hook, line and sinker. I would love the fans to own the club, I don't believe that the CIC actually offers that in its current form. I am also a bit uneasy with how we purchase the club, including the price paid. Its in the selling consortium's interest to get the fans to buy the club as their isn't any haggling over price, which you can be sure a private bidder would/will. Edited June 10, 2012 by TPAFKATS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 My reading of Rick's post is he's actually saying that he has decided to go for it and he is explaining why. That's quite right,Sid. I've been sitting on the fence all this time. The whole bloody argument is dragging on and is simply going round in circles. i'm going for it even although i share some of your concerns. Perfect solutions aren't always available and that's clearly the position here. Doing nothing is just as likely to carry at least the same degree of risk. Can you blame the consortium for becoming a bit impatient. I don't although they surely have to accept some of the blame. They promoted the CIC as if it was the only show in town but clearly it no longer is. Or is it still? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 That's quite right,Sid. I've been sitting on the fence all this time. The whole bloody argument is dragging on and is simply going round in circles. i'm going for it even although i share some of your concerns. Perfect solutions aren't always available and that's clearly the position here. Doing nothing is just as likely to carry at least the same degree of risk. Can you blame the consortium for becoming a bit impatient. I don't although they surely have to accept some of the blame. They promoted the CIC as if it was the only show in town but clearly it no longer is. Or is it still? I don't think so. I'm very borderline on it too Rick....... all I needed was more detailed information. We didn't get that. It doesn't mean I am against it....it just tips the balance the other way for me. The deadline / sell to anybody attempts to stir up support probably lost me; however they probably reckon they will pick up more supporters through the fear / force the issue factor. I doubt there'll be many fans that 100% certain of what they are doing. I wouldn't blame anyone for backing it or vice versa. I hope that is the view that all fans take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I'm very borderline on it too Rick....... all I needed was more detailed information. We didn't get that. It doesn't mean I am against it....it just tips the balance the other way for me. The deadline / sell to anybody attempts to stir up support probably lost me; however they probably reckon they will pick up more supporters through the fear / force the issue factor. I doubt there'll be many fans that 100% certain of what they are doing. I wouldn't blame anyone for backing it or vice versa. I hope that is the view that all fans take. I can sympathise with that,Sid. I'm borderline too as I think you realise. I still have a couple of days to change my mind.Again. Let's see what else crawls out the woodwork. Whatever happened to good old fashioned truth? Just the facts, no spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I can sympathise with that,Sid. I'm borderline too as I think you realise. I still have a couple of days to change my mind.Again. Let's see what else crawls out the woodwork. Whatever happened to good old fashioned truth? Just the facts, no spin. What is in no doubt, the club will be sold in the next few weeks, and i know that from SG himself, i would rather it was us that owned it rather that god knows who. so Fri i will be happy if its us, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I can sympathise with that,Sid. I'm borderline too as I think you realise. I still have a couple of days to change my mind.Again. Let's see what else crawls out the woodwork. Whatever happened to good old fashioned truth? Just the facts, no spin. My biggest worry is the modern business approach that seems to lie behind this - get the deal done and worry about how you deliver it later. No point in getting bogged down in the "should we.." debate again though. The line in the sand has been drawn - you either step over or you don't. I genuinely wouldn't try and sway anyone one way of the other. Too big a decision and it is just too grey at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) I'm very borderline on it too Rick....... all I needed was more detailed information. We didn't get that. It doesn't mean I am against it....it just tips the balance the other way for me. The deadline / sell to anybody attempts to stir up support probably lost me; however they probably reckon they will pick up more supporters through the fear / force the issue factor. I doubt there'll be many fans that 100% certain of what they are doing. I wouldn't blame anyone for backing it or vice versa. I hope that is the view that all fans take. Maybe I'm not a fan, but I am as close to 100% certain as I could possibly be that 10000hours are offering St Mirren fans early dibs on what the future of the Scottish game will be. It's just a shame they are having to do the process in reverse because 5 greedy shareholders are determined to get a big pay day from the club. The whole thing would have been a lot more straightforward - and the fans signing up to become members could have had fully funded members perks directly benefiting the playing squad budget - had they been willing to donate their shares to the CIC in the same way John Boyle did at Motherwell. If St Mirren fans pass up their opportunity I'm certain it won't be the last time we see this kind of plan in the Scottish game. Clubs who do adopt this model will have, by definition, have brought their customer base much closer to the beating heart of the club. They'll also have the support of their community and will have made their club much more attractive to the corporate clients bringing in even more money to their club. Clubs on what has become known as the traditional ownership model - IMO - will be left behind. I'm not going to endorse 10000hours business plan to fund the £1.5m price for the shares because there isn't enough detail in the public domain, but the SEN model for football clubs is spot on. Edited June 10, 2012 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Sid Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Maybe I'm not a fan, but I am as close to 100% certain as I could possibly be that 10000hours are offering St Mirren fans early dibs on what the future of the Scottish game will be. It's just a shame they are having to do the process in reverse because 5 greedy shareholders are determined to get a big pay day from the club. The whole thing would have been a lot more straightforward - and the fans signing up to become members could have had fully funded members perks directly benefiting the playing squad budget - had they been willing to donate their shares to the CIC in the same way John Boyle did at Motherwell. If St Mirren fans pass up their opportunity I'm certain it won't be the last time we see this kind of plan in the Scottish game. Clubs who do adopt this model will have, by definition, have brought their customer base much closer to the beating heart of the club. They'll also have the support of their community and will have made their club much more attractive to the corporate clients bringing in even more money to their club. Clubs on what has become known as the traditional ownership model - IMO - will be left behind. I'm not going to endorse 10000hours business plan to fund the £1.5m price for the shares because there isn't enough detail in the public domain, but the SEN model for football clubs is spot on. Remove the level of debt and you remove the pressures on the fan ownership / social funder control element - that is clear. However, it is a plus that social funders are also required. I think the community aspect was a lot stronger when we had grant money in the deal. Somefow fans have managed to be disadvantaged by having a healthy, well run club. Fans appear to be getting f"k'd no matter what. In a traditional sale a private bidder would be building their business plan on fans standard investment. Somehow with this version we are paying to keep our club on an even keel twice. W support the club through its financial difficulties, and yet end up paying a premium once we finally get the club back in a decent position. If this does happen I hope the first thing we do is award all the CIC members a £20 discount on their season tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktf Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Remove the level of debt and you remove the pressures on the fan ownership / social funder control element - that is clear. However, it is a plus that social funders are also required. I think the community aspect was a lot stronger when we had grant money in the deal. Somefow fans have managed to be disadvantaged by having a healthy, well run club. Fans appear to be getting f"k'd no matter what. In a traditional sale a private bidder would be building their business plan on fans standard investment. Somehow with this version we are paying to keep our club on an even keel twice. W support the club through its financial difficulties, and yet end up paying a premium once we finally get the club back in a decent position. If this does happen I hope the first thing we do is award all the CIC members a £20 discount on their season tickets. Agreed! Which was the reason for my social funder/community questions on Thurs eve. The answers for which still weren't 100% clear except to say that I think the best solution to ensuring that the community element is a success (which is to the benefit of the club and the deal as a whole) is to have someone on the CiC board who has the community stuff at heart. Preferably a bud too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 If this does happen I hope the first thing we do is award all the CIC members a £20 discount on their season tickets. But RA said on the 10000hours Forum (which has disappeared) that the club & the CIC were seperate entities - why should membership of the CIC allow you discounts on club goods and decrease the club's revenue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 But RA said on the 10000hours Forum (which has disappeared) that the club & the CIC were seperate entities - why should membership of the CIC allow you discounts on club goods and decrease the club's revenue? I've said all along that the CIC should offer the members some sort of perk as that would ensure the success of the project long term. I don't for a minute think that perk has to be something that currently earns the club money, but it does have to be something that adds value to membership in a way that access to a pub to spend your money doesn't. At Clyde their perks come from their corporate partners who are willing to offer member discounts - there is no reason why this couldn't also work in a St Mirren context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaponsasaint Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 But RA said on the 10000hours Forum (which has disappeared) that the club & the CIC were seperate entities - why should membership of the CIC allow you discounts on club goods and decrease the club's revenue? He said at the meeting he was closing it, cos everyone commenting on B&A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 I've said all along that the CIC should offer the members some sort of perk as that would ensure the success of the project long term. I don't for a minute think that perk has to be something that currently earns the club money, but it does have to be something that adds value to membership in a way that access to a pub to spend your money doesn't. At Clyde their perks come from their corporate partners who are willing to offer member discounts - there is no reason why this couldn't also work in a St Mirren context. I thought the perk was that you were going to have a say in running the club - it absolutely shouldn't be anything that costs the club money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 But RA said on the 10000hours Forum (which has disappeared) that the club & the CIC were seperate entities - why should membership of the CIC allow you discounts on club goods and decrease the club's revenue? quite simply it shouldn't, if it were to happen then everybody that buys a season ticket or pays at the gate should get a discount first - because their money goes to the club - not to the social funders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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