St Mirren Employees & 10000 Hours

[St. Sid]

Let's clarify this again. It seems you have misunderstood what was said and have conveniently ignored the previous two dozen explanations I have given.

I will make this as simple as possible for you John and you can tell me which bits you disagree with.

60% of the current revenue which comes into St.Mirren comes in the form of Television and SPL sponsorship money.

Sky have a termination clause in their contract which they can exercise if either Rangers or Celtic cease to be in the SPL.

Rangers membership of the SPL is the subject of a club vote on 4th July.

It is widely anticpated that they will not be voted back into the SPL. And rightly so in my personal opinion.

This then means Sky COULD, POSSIBLY terminate the current television deal.

IF that happend, IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF it happened, then St.Mirren would be in serious trouble.

We have a wage bill for this season that is budgeted based on the TV and Sponsorship money being there.

If it is not there we have a problem. We will be spending more money than is coming in.

We cannot borrow money to bridge that gap, as nobody will lend us it.

This is an IF scenario. I did not say the club would go into administration if Rangers were voted into the SPL. I have NEVER said that.

If you cannot comprehend the above then I cannot help you any more. It's simple common sense and whilst it can be argued that is unlikely to happen the truth of the matter is that it IS possible and it COULD happen. For that reason it is not prudent for us or the club to close the deal and take over the running of the club, nor is it financially possible as the funder will not, for obvious reasons, lend us money to buy a business that COULD be in such serious trouble in just a few months time.

This is ALL about IF's, it is is ALL about speculating how we would deal with various scenarios that unfold.

Div...I disagree with spreading rumours that damage the clubs reputation - claiming we will be in administration in October is as low as you can get in terms of po-faced rumourmongering...let's see an official statement detailing all of this from St Mirren Football Club. Otherwise its just another post on an unofficial football forum.

[reborn saint]

I'm looking forward to reforming and playing in the 3rd division. The SPL project has failed, and failed disasterously. Concentrating the money into the hands of a small group of clubs has led those clubs (including ours by the look of it) to become lazy and complacent.

If we were to liquidate how feasible would it be for a fans group to purchase the assets of the club? It could lead to proper democratic fan ownership.

Got to disagree with you there Scott....How can you say our board are lazy and comlacent. They have made our club stable and we don't have the problems of Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc. with the banks sending them letters to vote the truth deniers in. This situation was not of their doing and I'm sure they are working their arse off to make the best of a very poor situation. They will vote no to newco and it's up to all of us to pick up the baton after that and get season tickets up to support our club. As it stands the BOD of St Mirren are blameless

[scottd]

Got to disagree with you there Scott....How can you say our board are lazy and comlacent. They have made our club stable and we don't have the problems of Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc. with the banks sending them letters to vote the truth deniers in. This situation was not of their doing and I'm sure they are working their arse off to make the best of a very poor situation. They will vote no to newco and it's up to all of us to pick up the baton after that and get season tickets up to support our club. As it stands the BOD of St Mirren are blameless

Maybe but to have the situation where 60% of income could be pulled at any point is not a great one. Clubs have become overly reliant on TV money, perhaps if had been more evenly spread throughout the Scottish leagues we would not be faced with this potential meltdown. The short termism that has blighted our game must end.

[St. Sid]

REA stated quite categorically at the last meeting that Massone wasn't involved in any bids.

And at what point did he tell us that St Mirren would be in administration in October and that 10000 hours would pull out if the SKY deal was pulled?

Its all shite FTOF...one big boring boastful blah, blah after another.....the phone call at the public meeting where he though it was the £750,000.00 social funder confirming the deal had gone through - only for it to be dropped altogether - blocked by Government for reasons that have never been revealed - let me guess commercially confidential.

Its been bollox upon bollox. And everytime the fans have been asked to hit a target we've exceeded the target by a mile......so what is the issue - its quite simple......10000 Hours just cannot deliver this. They have never been able to get their plans funded despite fans exceeding the required targets on three separate occasions. This is built entirely on £10-a-month "punts" from fans. No serious funders are taking it seriously.....you need to ask yourself why.

[oaksoft]

No, this is all part of the cunning plan.

Oaksoft.....it is not me that is posting that SMFC will be in administration in 4/5 months if the SPL lose the SKY deal. 10000 Hours have hit an all time low in terms of their scaremongering.

Show me where 10000hrs are talking about administration for a club which is debt free.

Sounds like another Sid classic.

Always good for a laugh.

[div]

Div...I disagree with spreading rumours that damage the clubs reputation - claiming we will be in administration in October is as low as you can get in terms of po-faced rumourmongering...let's see an official statement detailing all of this from St Mirren Football Club. Otherwise its just another post on an unofficial football forum.

Why bit of what I posted is a rumour ?

Nobody claimed the club will be in administration in October, except you ?

[oaksoft]

You can't have it all ways John.

The detail has already been provided but here it is again.

60% of the clubs turnover comes from TV and associated SPL sponsorship deals.

The club has budgeted for season 12-13 based on that continuing to be the case,

Sky have a termination clause in the contract should Rangers and/or Celtic cease to be in the SPL.

The club currently has 23 first team players under contract for season 12-13

So, since it looks like Rangers won't be in the SPL next season there is a possibility that Sky could invoke their termination clause.

So you have the facts so lets hear your contingency plan on how to deal with that scenario please.

Div, that is financial mismanagement because it is a gamble on the unknown with money we don't know if we;ll have with absolutely no fall back position if things go tits. What you are describing is a REASON to end this madness NOT to continue with it.

Which part of that are people struggling to come to terms with?

[div]

And at what point did he tell us that St Mirren would be in administration in October and that 10000 hours would pull out if the SKY deal was pulled?

At no point. He never said any of that, you just made tha all up. Again.

[div]

Div, that is financial mismanagement because it is a gamble on the unknown with money we don't know if we;ll have with absolutely no fall back position if things go tits. What you are describing is a REASON to end this madness NOT to continue with it.

Which part of that are people struggling to come to terms with?

The players contracts that would cause the problem were signed last summer. Are you suggesting the club should have budgeted for the current scenario last summer ?

[oaksoft]

To repeat, again;

The potential problem is the sky revenue disappearing overnight, leaving us with a wage bill for this season that is budgeted on that money being there to pay for it.

IF that scenario came about, the club WOULD be in serious trouble.

This isn't scaremongering, it's not the result of bad management, its pure and simple common sense.

How likely it is to happen is anyone's guess but it remains possible, and for that reason it is prudent to sit and wait for the situation to become clearer.

Sorry but that is total bollox.

If you spend what you don't have then it's financial mismanagement.

[reborn saint]

Maybe but to have the situation where 60% of income could be pulled at any point is not a great one. Clubs have become overly reliant on TV money, perhaps if had been more evenly spread throughout the Scottish leagues we would not be faced with this potential meltdown. The short termism that has blighted our game must end.

The thing is Scott there is NO Way Sky will pull the plug on Scottish football and that's what everyone has to understand. The Sevco media outlets have been full of it and it has to STOP NOW....It is fair for Div etc to say we don't know the position as Sky are playing this in the RIGHT way. They cannot and shouuld not influence the decsision on newco and ANY statement would.

[St. Sid]

Why bit of what I posted is a rumour ?

Nobody claimed the club will be in administration in October, except you ?

4-5 months time.....October / September.

[oaksoft]

Billy, sorry bud but this is bonkers talk! The reason R*ngers were liquidated, K*illie and the D*ng aren't far off and others are following closely behind is because they ended up with astronomically high wage bills in comparison to their income.

The answer for St Mirren is not to stick their fingers in their ears and sing "nah nah" very loudly. The correct course of action is to be up front an honest. Which is what is happening now and why the sale hasn't gone ahead.

And to reply to your post before this one, of 60% of St Mirren's income relies on TV and corporate sponsorship deals then that is simply that. "They should take what's coming to them" has nothing to do with it. I'm willing to bet that almost 100% of your household income comes from one source - job, benefits, pension etc.. Does that mean that you deserve all you get if your employer goes bust or the government changes the benefits entitlement or you pension scheme goes tits up?

St Mirren, as all clubs have, have budgeted the TV and sponsorship money into the general running of the club. Are you suggesting they shouldn't spend 60% of their income in case the company providing it say bye bye? That would be ridiculous and see us relegated immediately as we didn't have good enough players to compete.

In the same way that you would spend the large percentage of your household income that comes from one source, St Mirren have plans to spend they 60% of their income that comes from one type of source. It's naive to assume they'd do any different.

What it means is that other than your mortgage or rent (payment of which is UNAVOIDABLE) you don't spunk money running up 25 credit card bills to the max and expect sympathy when things go pear shaped.

I actually can't believe you're equating a football clubs plight to this.

Clubs pay out more than they need to and have left themselves trapped into accepting something which kills the game and therefore get what they deserve (including Saints).

I don't think it can be explained more simply.

In light of recent events can there be any fan of any club in Scotland who does NOT just want to see their club run in a sustainable manner?

Right now I'd willingly accept relegation and part time football if it was the only sustainable way to run this club.

To think otherwise is just ostrich behaviour.

[div]

Sorry but that is total bollox.

If you spend what you don't have then it's financial mismanagement.

I'm not sure why you aren't getting this.

The current squad of players with the exception of Sam Parkin all signed contracts with St.Mirren last summer. All of these players are under contract until the end of season 2012-2013.

The club sets a budget based on a worst case scenario of finishing 11th and being knocked out of both cups in the 1st round with no home gates.

That is the way we have run the club for years and the accounts shows that this prudent management has worked very well.

The money to pay those players wages was/is contracted with Sky, who have a year left of the current deal and another 4 year deal lined up after that.

Nobody could have predicted the current situation coming to pass this time last year.

[div]

Right now I'd willingly accept relegation and part time football if it was the only sustainable way to run this club.

To think otherwise is just ostrich behaviour.

If this situation was happening next summer that might be how we would deal with the doomsday scenario, because all the players would be out of contract.

The problem, and I really am getting bored of saying this, is that the players are all under contract.

[elvis]

Why bit of what I posted is a rumour ?

Nobody claimed the club will be in administration in October, except you ?

Thats right YOU CLAIMED it would be a matter of months

[oaksoft]

The players contracts that would cause the problem were signed last summer. Are you suggesting the club should have budgeted for the current scenario last summer ?

No I'm saying that the problem here is that everything is being done in arrears.

We sign the contracts THEN get paid by Sky etc.

It needs to be the other way round.

The mismanagement comes from always spending everything that comes in so you don't build up a rainy day fund.

The club should never sign a contract unless the money is already in the bank to honour it regardless of what happens.

We've signed contracts guaranteeing payment but without any guarantees we'll be able to fulfill that committment.

What part of that is not mismanagement?

[oaksoft]

If this situation was happening next summer that might be how we would deal with the doomsday scenario, because all the players would be out of contract.

The problem, and I really am getting bored of saying this, is that the players are all under contract.

I understand completely what you are talking about.

Where we are disagreeing is whether we should ever have had a financial setup where we were at risk of this.

I'm not saying we should have predicted the demise of Rangers.

I'm not Dickson or Sid FFS

What I'm saying is that we've allowed ourselves to become mortgaged to the hilt with no rainy day security.

Given the Setanta crash it is f**king unbelievable that no club has considered it might happen again and put some safety mechanism in place.

It's the lack of a rainy day fund I'm talking about that's all.

Can we agree on that?

[div]

No I'm saying that the problem here is that everything is being done in arrears.

We sign the contracts THEN get paid by Sky etc.

It needs to be the other way round.

The mismanagement comes from always spending everything that comes in so you don't build up a rainy day fund.

The club should never sign a contract unless the money is already in the bank to honour it regardless of what happens.

We've signed contracts guaranteeing payment but without any guarantees we'll be able to fulfill that committment.

What part of that is not mismanagement?

Unfortunately that is the way football clubs work and in fact most businesses work the same way.

Other than with season tickets pretty much everything is paid in arrears or in installments.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land I'm afraid if you think St.Mirren should be sitting with a few hundred thousand in the bank waiting for a rainy day.

[div]

It's the lack of a rainy day fund I'm talking about that's all.

Can we agree on that?

I just can't see where that rainy day fund would have come from. Maybe if we hadn't signed Gary Teale, Steven Thompson, Paul McGowan and Graham Carey last summer we might have a few hundred K sat there.

We'd be in the first division though so the Sky deal wouldn't really affect us anyway.

[elvis]

Show me where 10000hrs are talking about administration for a club which is debt free.

Sounds like another Sid classic.

Always good for a laugh.

Div is part of the 10,000 club if you read back his posts you will see where HE said it.

[div]

Div is part of the 10,000 club if you read back his posts you will see where HE said it.

What exactly did I say elvis ?

[oaksoft]

I just can't see where that rainy day fund would have come from. Maybe if we hadn't signed Gary Teale, Steven Thompson, Paul McGowan and Graham Carey last summer we might have a few hundred K sat there.

We'd be in the first division though so the Sky deal wouldn't really affect us anyway.

You say you can't see where it might have come from and then highlight where it might have come from. LOL.

We MIGHT have been in the 1st division. MIGHT. But we would have been run properly.

We ARE in financial shit now though. ARE. And we have no way out of it other than hardship as a direct result of not having that fund.

BTW maybe a better source would be to have cut back on just one of those types of player each year since the Setanta deal and save the money.

Do you not agree that would have been a better compromise between 1st division football and the situation we are in now?

Edited June 23, 2012 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

What exactly did I say elvis ?

"Elvis"?

You means "Sid" surely?

I think our resident punk is getting his aliases mixed up.

[Ally]

No I'm saying that the problem here is that everything is being done in arrears.

We sign the contracts THEN get paid by Sky etc.

It needs to be the other way round.

The mismanagement comes from always spending everything that comes in so you don't build up a rainy day fund.

The club should never sign a contract unless the money is already in the bank to honour it regardless of what happens.

We've signed contracts guaranteeing payment but without any guarantees we'll be able to fulfill that committment.

What part of that is not mismanagement?

At the start of last season, it would be an entirely reasonable assumption that Rangers and Celtic would be in the SPL in season 2012/2013. You budget on this assumption. Just in the same way that you would reasonably assume that there'd be an average home gate of around 3500 or upwards for seasons 2011/2012... so again you budget on this assumption.

The club have to budget on reasonable assumptions, as everyone does! What's the alternative, sign players on month to month contracts because there's a chance suddenly no one will turn up at St Mirren park to watch the team? Do you only budget that the attendance will be made up of season ticket holders.... as that's the only money that's in the bank and can be sure on? Of course you don't!

The fact that the club haven't budgeted for the the Sky deal POTENTIALLY falling through because of Rangers not being in the league is not mismanagement. It was a reasonable assumption, not a reckless one, that they would be and therefore the Sky deal wouldn't be in doubt. I don't think there's much chance of Sky pulling the plug, as a PR move it would be disastrous and as a broadcaster who boast that they're "the home of sport" it wouldn't be a good move to effectively shut down Scottish Football.