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Alternative Fan Buy Out


ck1

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More head in the sand...everybody is wrong if they don't roll over and let 10000 Hours rub their belly nonsense. Can't you see that you are merely trying to rubbish every point / concern that is raised now. You are not delviering any new information to the support. All people are seeing is CIC-supporters behaving like other supporters concerns don't matter.

It was SMiSA that spoke of the offer to hold money in trust - from what they said at the meeting this offer was made way back at the beginning when they were engaged with 10000 Hours - before they were sidelined when they were no longer required to tick a box for the £750,000.00 grant funding. I don't know if there were any dependencies placed on that offer - I am not a member of SMiSA let alone a committee member. I was merely pointing out the difference between fans setting money aside to be used to help the club survive a crisis versus fans signing up to service a debt leaving the club at risk.

You have made some big claims about SMiSA in your post Steve. Read this statement you made in your post and see if you can recognise the flaw in your statement:

1. You claim to have been following this closely.

2. You don't recall SMiSA ever offering to keep the subs in trust until the deal went though (were you at the last public meeting or the one before it when this was mentioned?)

3. You claim to be SURE that the would be a dependency on SMiSA getting to see a detailed business plan

All three points manage to contradict themselves and are fairly typical of the bollox behaviour of CIC supporters. There isn't an actuall valid point in your entire post. You are passing comment on something that you don't recall and then taking something that you don't even remember and adding a condition to it on behalf of SMiSA.

It is the same old shite. Bad news gets delivered from 10000 Hours via its unofficial online team and the concerns raised get rubbished not with information but with spurious shite like that contained in the post above.

The reality is that we now have a conditional offer because 10000 Hours do not have the ability to steer St Mirren Football Club through a revenue crisis. That risk is about SMFC getting f"k'd not 10000 Hours. We are repeatedly told through soundbites that the club is not at risk. Let's see some figures around the risk to St Mirren Football Club, because that is exactly what the conditional offer is all about.

I've been at every public meeting - I didn't attend the SMISA meetings because I'm not a SMISA member, so it may well have been mentioned at any of these meetings, however if it did, it wasn't mentioned anywhere on these forums which you would think something like that would.

As it happens, I think it would have been a great idea to have been paying subs for the last 2 years so we had a startup fund - not neccesarily for a contingency pot as you put it across, as I don't think £250k would get close to covering 60% of potential lost income, but to help reduce the overall debt.

At the last public meeting, it was confirmed that the main reason which is causing concern for SMISA is the £600k projection that the CIC would make over 5 years. This projection is contained in the detailed business plan that cannot be made public due to commercial competition. It was even mentioned that once the deal is completed, it will be made public for all to see, spreadsheet after spreadsheet projecting the CIC income. This is the main sticking point for the SMISA membership, not trusting that 2-3 committee members can verify that the business plan is good. (Even though the funders are happy with it, the several successful businessmen from 10khours are happy and the several succesful businessmen from the selling consortium are happy with it!)

So I think I was entitled to assume that the same conditions for SMISA being involved would be the same then as they are now, would I not?

I am of the opinion that you are making this up anyway but I'll be happy to be proved wrong if you can show any threads, for example, from 2 years ago discussing SMISA holding subs in trust!

I notice you don't mentioned anything about your statement about Divs potential doomsday scenario, littered with inaccuracies - I'm guessing hopeful that it'll just be forgotten about?

So the reality is we now have a conditional offer because BII want to ensure the club doesn't go into administration in 6 months time. BII had the same clause 2 years ago in CIC Mk1 which you pro-actively supported, so were you wrong then or are you wrong now? Or do you not have a clue what your talking about anymore cause you've tied yourself up with so many wind-ups that even you don't know when you're being serious anymore!?

Same old shite from you I'm afraid Sid, too much huff with very little puff! Try not to get sidetracked and I'm sure you'll get another week or two out of this line of arguement! wink.png

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What are you actually doing about if you have the ambition?

It would appear that spending endless hours on B&W Army trolling, is the preferred starting point for alternatives to the CiC.whistling.gif

Edited by FTOF
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Serious question so we can be clear. What are you actually doing about if you have the ambition?

Quite simply, I've signed up for 10khours as I believe this is the way all football clubs should be ran and will be ran in the future. I have belief in it because I want a better club. Quite frankly, complaining about modern commonly used phrases and using it as a reason to bash 10khours (if it was serious) smacks of a total lack of ambition to me.

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If the inner sanctum of 10000 hours are bandying around phrases like "crowd sourced funding" then it's most likely a good thing they dont have legs left to get their bid over the line.

When people resort to using hackneyed buzz-phrases when describing other humans then it usually means at least one of two things

1. they have little imagination and are trying to look smart by inventing their own little language

2. they have no regard for the people they are talking about.

Just so you all know, the supporters of St Mirren, the club you all believe you are fit to control, are not a "crowd". They are a body of passionate people who care about the institution of the club

thumbup2.gif

Quality rant !

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Quite simply, I've signed up for 10khours as I believe this is the way all football clubs should be ran and will be ran in the future. I have belief in it because I want a better club. Quite frankly, complaining about modern commonly used phrases and using it as a reason to bash 10khours (if it was serious) smacks of a total lack of ambition to me.

Steve. Was a question for Sid not you. Your previous post was v. helpful.

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Another head in the sand see no eveil hear no evil speak no evil post. It doesn't matter if there is another bid or not. The club is at risk and it is not me or whoever lie behind the animal-type aliases that are saying that - it is 10000 Hours, the consortium and their last remaining funder.

What is being said is that if the worst comes to the worst and Div's doomsday scenario comes into play in a few months - all his bollox not mine - do we really want all the fans spare cash locked up in £1.5Million of unecessary debt with nothing left available to bail the club out as it heads into administration?

SMiSA offered to hold the CIC subs in trust until the deal was done. That would have given us over 2 years worth of subs. I think we were sitting at around £6,000 a month back then. We would have had around £150,000.00 sitting in the SMiSA bank account good to go. We could have made a decision to ring fence that money in the CIC for cashflow problems for the CIC instead of handing it over to the consortium. That plus the £100K 10000 Hours tells us they have allocated for cashflow issues would have given us a £250,000.00 firefighting fund to help see us through the SKY / SPL sponsor crisis.

10000 Hours for whatever reason appear to have knocked that offer from SMiSA back.

The last thing fans should be doing at this point in time if there is a threat to our club is signing up to service a debt, that is looking dodgier in terms of how it is financed every time 10000 Hours releases a statement.

Firstly it's not Div's doomsday scenario - the current BoD have indicated to him as part of the meeting with 10000 Hours that the football club would have serious short-term financial problems as it would lose 60% of its revenue if Sky pull the plug. Do you understand that or are you calling Div a liar?

So if Sky do walk away the football club will be in financial difficulties, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE OWNERS ARE.

One thing is for sure though - if the Sky deal is cancelled 10000 Hours will not be the owners because Bii will pull their funding so no fans money is going to be tied up anywhere.

This is not a 10000 Hours issue no matter how much you try to make it one. If 10000 Hours call the whole thing off tomorrow St Mirren FC's future will still be dependant on what happens with the Sky deal.

If you think Div is being used as a pawn being fed misinformation to try and influence the 10000 Hours member to vote yes to Newco then that's one conspiracy theory too far for me. For starters the current BoD can just vote yes if they like without consulting anyone and additionally the feeling is so strong to vote no to Newco that they would be wasting their time.

Edited by bingboy
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Crowd funding or crowdfunding (alternately crowd financing, equity crowdfunding, or hyper funding) describes the collective cooperation, attention and trust by people who network and pool their money and other resources together, usually via the internet, to support efforts initiated by other people or organizations.[citation needed] Crowd funding occurs for any variety of purposes,[1] from disaster relief to citizen journalism to artists seeking support from fans, to political campaigns, to funding a startup company, movie [2] or small business[3] or creating free software.

.....

The United States based company ArtistShare (2000/2001) is documented as being the first crowdfunding website for music.....

So it's been around since 2000 or earlier and wasn't invented by 10000hours trying to look smart.

And please take notice of the phrase "collective cooperation" in the description above, to see that there is no "they". Once you sign up for 10khours it becomes "we" not "they".

It seems like you're living in the dark ages and have no ambition to help move the club forward.

Now i see what you did there, you took a phrase that is similar to the one that I quoted (accurately) from div's post and wove it into a little rant of your own, how much of your precious time on this planet did you waste in the process?

I find it objectionable to use collective phrases that characterise humans in that way, I'ver seen and heard similar over many years of being involved with all sorts of different people who had little regard for their fellow humans, it lowers the tone and in any case, YOU ARE TALKING BOLLOCKS.

10000 hours is not a crowd funded internet based funding vehicle. It is a community interest company (I think that is what it is this week)

You dont know me, you dont know my thoughts or anything for ambitions for St Mirren. Just so you are aware, i am 100% in favour of a supporter-owned club. I dont even have any objections to the concept of 10000 hours bid, i do have some reservations and remain to be convinced 100%, but that would be my viewpoint on almost any bid for St Mirren.

If i seriously wanted to undermine 10000 hours, then the best way would be to use your recent posts (bullying rants would be a more accurate description) as a way of demonstrating the kind of fanny you dont want ANYWHERE near a football club.

I am the kind of person you should be trying to persuade, not alienate. Having such an ill-judged, beligerent and poorly-informed go at me demonstrates that you have no ambition to do what is in the best interests of the club.

PS, I "liked" your post simply because it gave me so much amusement and something to do during a 5 minute break.

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Guest somner9

This fiasco is now officially a FARCE!

10000 hours have been at pains to tell us why their bid was the only way to prevent the club slipping into a doomsday scenario of being heavily indebted and at the mercy of the circling vultures.

they then belated inform us that there is indeed NO! funding available to them, and that the people who they sought a £500k loan from have pulled the plug in case theres no rangers next season.

It defies belief that all this only came to 10000 hours attention last thursday? Instead of now being a fan owned club, we sit on the precipice paralyzed by 10000 inability to complete on anything, and indeed to stick to any plan they have hatched.

The club has never been more vulnerable than it is now thanks entirely to 10000 hours and an unrealistic selling price

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10000 hours is not a crowd funded internet based funding vehicle. It is a community interest company (I think that is what it is this week)

It's never been anything other than a community interest company. A massive part of our funding comes from many people, 99% of whom have signed up online.

Maybe not strictly crowd based funding but really not worth getting knickers in a twist about.

Surely you have more to add to the debate than this ?

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I've been at every public meeting - I didn't attend the SMISA meetings because I'm not a SMISA member, so it may well have been mentioned at any of these meetings, however if it did, it wasn't mentioned anywhere on these forums which you would think something like that would.

Steve, a member of SMiSA mentioned it at the last public meeting. It was also mentioned at the previous public meeting that was dominated by SMiSA members asking questions. Very few people attended that meeting. I don't believe that you were one of them? That's two of the public meetings that it was mentioned. At both meetings REA dodged the question.

Sadly we can't go back; however it is yet another example of the mistakes being made by 10000 Hours. These people are going to be instrumental in deciding budgets for SMFC. They got their forecasts wildly wrong for the memberships. What happens when they "gamble" the clubs budget on wishful thinking ill constructed bollox like the 1877 club? Their forecasts are out by about £300,000.00 being generous to them. Bii are shiting themselves about a the impact of losing the SKY deal, which is worst case scenario £500K according to 10000 Hours themselves. Throw into the mix the as yet unannounced plans for CIC initiatives to cover the £600K gap which may have been execerbated by the failure of the 87 and 1877 clubs.

Your the guys telling us there is f"k aw to worry about and that crowd funding is infallible. Your very quick to shoot down peoples concerns so let's hear from you exactly how all the finances of 10000 Hours and SMFC will work, because at the moment it all looks like a closely guarded secret bag of shite.

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Guest somner9

I fear for your mental wellbeing.

Thats it? thats your best debating point?

I think your fears are needed closer to home.

All I ask is would you repeat what you ay on here to my face? Thats the acid test.

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All I ask is would you repeat what you ay on here to my face? Thats the acid test.

I think we can do without personal abuse, but we can also do without veiled threats to other posters.

Lets; have an adult debate guys, please ?

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I think we can do without personal abuse, but we can also do without veiled threats to other posters.

Lets; have an adult debate guys, please ?

I think we are way beyond that.

It looks to me like pretty much everyone has picked their camp and dug in, ready to hold fast for the long run. I don't really see anyone's opinions changing at this point and it is just purely a mud slinging campaign to pass the time and score cheap points.

Many folk have chosen to sign up and be part of this. Many have chosen to not sign up. I don't think we could really have expected anything different.

Can we agree to disagree? The people onboard with 10000hrs can band together to do whatever they can to make this work. The people against it can put some trust in the board to make the right decision and only sell to someone "fit and proper".

Sid has been very vocal in the recent past about us trusting the board on the newco vote issue. He was right then, and it should follow through that we should trust them on the sale of the club too. If 10000hrs aren't the right people to sell the club to then the BoD won't sell the club to them. Simples.

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I think we are way beyond that.

It looks to me like pretty much everyone has picked their camp and dug in, ready to hold fast for the long run. I don't really see anyone's opinions changing at this point and it is just purely a mud slinging campaign to pass the time and score cheap points.

Many folk have chosen to sign up and be part of this. Many have chosen to not sign up. I don't think we could really have expected anything different.

Can we agree to disagree? The people onboard with 10000hrs can band together to do whatever they can to make this work. The people against it can put some trust in the board to make the right decision and only sell to someone "fit and proper".

Sid has been very vocal in the recent past about us trusting the board on the newco vote issue. He was right then, and it should follow through that we should trust them on the sale of the club too. If 10000hrs aren't the right people to sell the club to then the BoD won't sell the club to them. Simples.

Fuxake is that how fickle the 10000 Hours bid is - St Sid is now considered to be the entrenched no campaign. There's only one problem with that theory - I am actually pro-CIC....my current concern is that the financials are shit as well as the deal for fans. The biggest concern is the risk to SMFC. It is not an entrenched position however the lack of detailed information and petty bollox has placed me 100% against 10000 Hours progressing. Nothing I can do about it happening. Apparently "the deal has not been rejected", which is an odd choice of words in itself. However, whether I am for or against it doesn't really matter. If the consortium accept the offer, if Bii's conditions are met...then the deal goes ahead irrespective of who is for or against it. We are all now in a fingers crossed the serial failures in charge of it all can actually make it work. My view is that fans that have been against will end up having to bail the bag of shite out at some point in the not too distant future. There will be no gloating, there will be no told you so, there won't even be a get yerselves ti f"k.....we will bail the shambles out because we care about the club. The bawbags will take their punt, and the fans that can see the pig in a poke that are being slated now will quietly step in and save the club when it all goes pete tong. It is our money, and our club that you are taking a punt on. Too late to change it now. 10000 Hours will continue to spin its failures into successes, they will continue to undermine anyone expressing concerns about their failures.......and they'll be the last to admit it is a bag of shite until it is too late. However, the one thing they no they can depend upon is fans like me bailing them out no matter what - that is the sad, sad reality of this entire shambles - and it is why the finances are entirley dependent on rank and file supporters.

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If the inner sanctum of 10000 hours are bandying around phrases like "crowd sourced funding" then it's most likely a good thing they dont have legs left to get their bid over the line.

VERY good! :) Edited by bluto
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Fuxake is that how fickle the 10000 Hours bid is - St Sid is now considered to be the entrenched no campaign. There's only one problem with that theory - I am actually pro-CIC....my current concern is that the financials are shit as well as the deal for fans. The biggest concern is the risk to SMFC. It is not an entrenched position however the lack of detailed information and petty bollox has placed me 100% against 10000 Hours progressing. Nothing I can do about it happening. Apparently "the deal has not been rejected", which is an odd choice of words in itself. However, whether I am for or against it doesn't really matter. If the consortium accept the offer, if Bii's conditions are met...then the deal goes ahead irrespective of who is for or against it. We are all now in a fingers crossed the serial failures in charge of it all can actually make it work. My view is that fans that have been against will end up having to bail the bag of shite out at some point in the not too distant future. There will be no gloating, there will be no told you so, there won't even be a get yerselves ti f"k.....we will bail the shambles out because we care about the club. The bawbags will take their punt, and the fans that can see the pig in a poke that are being slated now will quietly step in and save the club when it all goes pete tong. It is our money, and our club that you are taking a punt on. Too late to change it now. 10000 Hours will continue to spin its failures into successes, they will continue to undermine anyone expressing concerns about their failures.......and they'll be the last to admit it is a bag of shite until it is too late. However, the one thing they no they can depend upon is fans like me bailing them out no matter what - that is the sad, sad reality of this entire shambles - and it is why the finances are entirley dependent on rank and file supporters.

So you're not putting your money into 10000 Hours just now so you will have it available when it inevitably goes tits up.

And you know that there's plenty of people like you just waiting in the wings to bail it out.

Can you give me this weeks lottery numbers please?

Wouldn't it be better just putting the money in now?

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At this moment in time, nothing is going to move on this issue. The consortium are not going to sell to anyone - let alone the council, Ticketus, Charlie Green or whoever else Aninal is getting exited about. For whatever reason (BII or simply financial prudence) 10000 Hours aren't going to buy the club right now.

We have a stalemate type situation and that won't change until the majority of SPL chairman (our own included, hopefully) vote No to Newco. At which point we'll have info from Sky and the other corporate sponsors on what they intend to do next. We'll know then whether the club will be sold to 10000 Hours or someone else.

The stage we are at just now is rather unfortunate as it is frustrating and no-one really knows what is going on - opening it up to wild speculation and more ridicule. In, however, this could be the perfect opportunity for 10000 Hours to wok hard on the 3k and 25k memberships. It could also be used to spread the word further afield for folks interested in the standard membership. Info should be getting released about the benefit to local businesses, charities and community groups should be getting contacted to inform them of the possibilities available to them if 10000 Hours gets club ownership. 10000 Hours should be finding a way to get the information that is being asked for on here and by others like SMiSA to them in the most confidential way possible. Regular fans who have signed up and believe in the model should be gathered, given information and leaflets etc to hand out to family and friends and the pub and wherever else. In short, Everything should be happening to get as many people on board and make this work. This wee delay in the selling process (to whomever) is the prefect chance for these things to happen.

We appear to be in a situation now where the deal will be accepted or rejected no matter what happens with the number of sign ups. It seems to be all down to BII and Sky. This surely removes the need for confidentiality, allowing the likes of SMiSA to get the info to their members for a ballot on whether to join and also so the likes of Sid can be fully informed.

One of the main problem, for which REA has apologised, is that 10000 Hours haven't informed the fans (now potential members) what is going on at each stage. Lessons must be learnt. There is a chance to rectify this, get more people, community groups and corporate types on board and potentially influence the lenders even more that this is what the fans and community want. This chance can't be missed.

10000 Hours and the club must also make a statement about the Newco situation. They need to be clear to fans what they intend to do, either way. Make no mistake however, a YES vote would be extremely detrimental to the 10000 Hours cause and would ultimately be fruitless as it seems the majority of other clubs are now NOs anyway.

Sadly this delay time has been used as a good opportunity for mudslinging and a game of who can shout the loudest. It now needs to be turned into something positive and used to get as many more fans etc on board as possible, get as much information out as can be practically done and inform the St Mirren support on the Newco intention. 10000 Hours, please don't waste this oportunity. I'm available, you know my number, contact me to do any of the above - I'm sure many others are in the same position - we just need the tools and the info to do it.

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Guest somner9

I think we can do without personal abuse, but we can also do without veiled threats to other posters.

Lets; have an adult debate guys, please ?

If you are suggesting my post was a "thinly veiled threat?" then you couldn't be further from the truth!

If it is as you say an "Adult Debate", wouldn't a reasonable definition of that infer that it is a debate that could be held in person, in the pub, on the bus etc as well as online? And if we are being "Adult" about it wouldn't you expect it as a common courtesy to engage personally as you would if you were in the same room?

Otherwise all we are left with is a rangers type forum where abuse, threats etc etc are the standard fare.

I wouldn't say anything to any individual on here that I would not say in person. I'm quite happy with that.

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Guest somner9

How can anybody tell you anything to your face when you're an anonymous alias?

Strangely enough I have had a good look at the user names on here and don't see many full first and second names, nor addresses come to that. I'm not "Ann-on-A-mouse" nor am i a number! I'm a free maaaaan!

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