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10000Hours Update: 23Rd July 2012


Drew

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Perhaps you have a cunning plan to "remove the 52% shareholding". These shares exist and are owned by the selling consortium. Not even you can make them vanish into thin air. Do you mean that the members of the consortium should be prevented from selling their shares if someone wants to pay the asking price?

All depends...Ricky Gillies was in the PDE today rambling on about the £1.1Million black hole again. If the "bidder with no name" turns out to be a lot of shite then the selling consortium will need to get the hat out to fans again. That would be the opportunity to break the 52% shareholding. There was also much ramblings from what may have been GLS / KMG aliases that the selling consortium is not that secure....an approach to one or two of the ones gagging to sell with an offer could quickly break the selling consortium wide open.

The 1,100 £10-a-month is a pretty high bargaining chip....the issue we have is that it is no controlled by fans. Switch it to SMiSA and suddenly we have a more direct fans negotiating position. As it stands 10000 hrs are acting very much own interests and that of Bii rather than the fans or the club.

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All depends...Ricky Gillies was in the PDE today rambling on about the £1.1Million black hole again. If the "bidder with no name" turns out to be a lot of shite then the selling consortium will need to get the hat out to fans again. That would be the opportunity to break the 52% shareholding. There was also much ramblings from what may have been GLS / KMG aliases that the selling consortium is not that secure....an approach to one or two of the ones gagging to sell with an offer could quickly break the selling consortium wide open.

The 1,100 £10-a-month is a pretty high bargaining chip....the issue we have is that it is no controlled by fans. Switch it to SMiSA and suddenly we have a more direct fans negotiating position. As it stands 10000 hrs are acting very much own interests and that of Bii rather than the fans or the club.

I know I've cancelled my 10000hours direct debits but there is absolutely no way I would start them again to contribute to a SMiSA bid. I was always supportive of the ISA movement but SMiSA was never one of the best ones available. To get my interest again there would have to be something very different happening at Greenhill Road. Something very inclusive in the way that 10000hours Mk1 appeared to be.

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I know I've cancelled my 10000hours direct debits but there is absolutely no way I would start them again to contribute to a SMiSA bid. I was always supportive of the ISA movement but SMiSA was never one of the best ones available. To get my interest again there would have to be something very different happening at Greenhill Road. Something very inclusive in the way that 10000hours Mk1 appeared to be.

SMiSA is for St Mirren supporters Stu.....the clue is in the name.

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Just a wee point. As I came on this forum to back a CIC and all that it could deliver It is sad to see that my dreams now lie in dust. The changes to the first offer and 10000hrs failure to communicate during troubled times was really unforgivable. I still have my dd in place and I believe we can change anything we want by using our financial support of the club. My posts all contain one consistent theme and that is no matter what has gone on in the past REA is a man of Honour and Integrity and his only wish was we could be a CIC with no real net personal gain for himself. This will remain my opinion even if we are sold outwith 10000hrs and I would question anyone who has anything negative to say about a man who's failure might be explained simply as the job was too big.

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SMiSA is for St Mirren supporters Stu.....the clue is in the name.

Aye Sid, and if I wanted to put more money into the ISA network there would be many better options than SMiSA who I think have a poor track record and who I think lack the ability to take St Mirren in the right direction.

Scottish Football clubs have to change their outlook on the game. They need to look at the model being used in Germany where there is genuine community involvement at every level - not just the levels that tick boxes for government grants. There needs to be a greater sharing of skills, information, equipment and facilities. There needs to be much more collaboration to deliver the kind of mutual benefits that would drive the club forward. I've always stated that St Mirren fans were too stupid to grasp the kind of potential that an SEN would offer. Richard Atkinson may well have been a long way short of perfect and perhaps he has lost some sight of the vision, but at least he was on the right page to start with. I can't see what SMiSA could deliver towards the vision - unless they plan to buy everyone towels and t-shirts. rolleyes.gif

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Just a wee point. As I came on this forum to back a CIC and all that it could deliver It is sad to see that my dreams now lie in dust. The changes to the first offer and 10000hrs failure to communicate during troubled times was really unforgivable. I still have my dd in place and I believe we can change anything we want by using our financial support of the club. My posts all contain one consistent theme and that is no matter what has gone on in the past REA is a man of Honour and Integrity and his only wish was we could be a CIC with no real net personal gain for himself. This will remain my opinion even if we are sold outwith 10000hrs and I would question anyone who has anything negative to say about a man who's failure might be explained simply as the job was too big.

I don't doubt his (Rea) integrity, But its obvious he and 10000 hours do not have the credibility to attract the investment, funding, and business they said way back; was already in the bag. thats the rub for me they actually said time and again that the funding was their ready to be drawn down, they just need 300 fans to sign up.

Well they got over a 1000 and still they nose dived. Not only was the job too big for them, they strung us all along for years, and when it came to fronting up they had to admit most of their claims just didn't stack up.

But we are still St Mirren, and we will go on. Keep the faith Re-born!

Edited by somner9
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All depends...Ricky Gillies was in the PDE today rambling on about the £1.1Million black hole again. If the "bidder with no name" turns out to be a lot of shite then the selling consortium will need to get the hat out to fans again. That would be the opportunity to break the 52% shareholding. There was also much ramblings from what may have been GLS / KMG aliases that the selling consortium is not that secure....an approach to one or two of the ones gagging to sell with an offer could quickly break the selling consortium wide open.

The 1,100 £10-a-month is a pretty high bargaining chip....the issue we have is that it is no controlled by fans. Switch it to SMiSA and suddenly we have a more direct fans negotiating position. As it stands 10000 hrs are acting very much own interests and that of Bii rather than the fans or the club.

As I said in a previous post, you are very selective in your reading. As far as I can see, there is a passing mention of the £1.1 million. The rest of the piece concerns positive suggestion to improve the Scottish football set up, such as bigger leagues, more teams promoted/relegated, referees no longer booking players for celebrating goals scored with their fans and moving the football season to the summer. You really do need to remove your blinkers!!

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Just a wee point. As I came on this forum to back a CIC and all that it could deliver It is sad to see that my dreams now lie in dust. The changes to the first offer and 10000hrs failure to communicate during troubled times was really unforgivable. I still have my dd in place and I believe we can change anything we want by using our financial support of the club. My posts all contain one consistent theme and that is no matter what has gone on in the past REA is a man of Honour and Integrity and his only wish was we could be a CIC with no real net personal gain for himself. This will remain my opinion even if we are sold outwith 10000hrs and I would question anyone who has anything negative to say about a man who's failure might be explained simply as the job was too big.

You're a good soul reborn saint. However, men of integrity and honour can very quickly be compromised by pride and ambition. I also find the faux integrity of modern business practise boakworthy...."might no lie, but I don't need to tell the truth either"...."economic with the truth", etc, etc.

The initial plans for the CIC were good. They appeared to have significant financial backing and had a lot of positive values underpinning the plan. As the wishful thinking nature of the financial backing became more apparent the positive values of the plan became compromised.

I'm not even sure it was an opportunity missed as we never really heard from the social funders - we'll never know how close or far we actually were at that point. Once that funding was lost REA should have held his hands up and walked away. To be fair I think he became a victim of his own blah, blah. When the initial plan promised so much for St Mirren and the community, and having built up so many peoples' hopes it will be difficult to back away from it.

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As I said in a previous post, you are very selective in your reading. As far as I can see, there is a passing mention of the £1.1 million. The rest of the piece concerns positive suggestion to improve the Scottish football set up, such as bigger leagues, more teams promoted/relegated, referees no longer booking players for celebrating goals scored with their fans and moving the football season to the summer. You really do need to remove your blinkers!!

More hysterical nonsense from the fishal sites CIC-cheerleading bully. For clarification....I read the article...it was shit. I have read better blah, blah from SNP cnutcillors.

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Aye Sid, and if I wanted to put more money into the ISA network there would be many better options than SMiSA who I think have a poor track record and who I think lack the ability to take St Mirren in the right direction.

Scottish Football clubs have to change their outlook on the game. They need to look at the model being used in Germany where there is genuine community involvement at every level - not just the levels that tick boxes for government grants. There needs to be a greater sharing of skills, information, equipment and facilities. There needs to be much more collaboration to deliver the kind of mutual benefits that would drive the club forward. I've always stated that St Mirren fans were too stupid to grasp the kind of potential that an SEN would offer. Richard Atkinson may well have been a long way short of perfect and perhaps he has lost some sight of the vision, but at least he was on the right page to start with. I can't see what SMiSA could deliver towards the vision - unless they plan to buy everyone towels and t-shirts. rolleyes.gif

I think Sid has made a fair point about supporters,Stu. You seem to be totally absorbed by community and youth football. That's very commendable and altruistic but for we true St.Mirren fans our short term concern is the survival of the club, hopefully in the hands of of a caring owner. Fan ownership might be a good thing and maybe preferable but short term St.Mirren's survival comes first.

I've blown hot and cold about the 10,000 hours business. I don't know the personalities involved but I have to be honest and say that I'm afraid I think over all they have been a bloody shambles. I don't see how anyone could have a lot of confidence about the course St.Mirren might take under their control in the increasingly unlikely looking event that the funding is accomplished. Even if the £500k. funding comes through the fans alone taking on £1m of debt is a nonsense.

The board of St.Mirren seems to have disappeared. I imagine they are sulking with the fans in the belief that the fans shafted them. Tough titty. I know you don't like SG and I don't suppose you are very keen on the others. What you have against SMiSA seems a bit childish. Do you want buying t-shirts and towels to become a hanging offence?

Going back to 10.000 hours I think it's far from just Sid and Somner who have grave reservations. To be fair several others have voiced concerns too. But there is a body around who simply won't hear a bad word said about them. I really believe that possibly a significant number who have signed up (I still am at the moment) have done so more on a wing and a prayer than belief. I also worry a bit about the blurring of borders between buy out money and SOS money. (Save Our Saints)

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I think Sid has made a fair point about supporters,Stu. You seem to be totally absorbed by community and youth football. That's very commendable and altruistic but for we true St.Mirren fans our short term concern is the survival of the club, hopefully in the hands of of a caring owner. Fan ownership might be a good thing and maybe preferable but short term St.Mirren's survival comes first.

I've blown hot and cold about the 10,000 hours business. I don't know the personalities involved but I have to be honest and say that I'm afraid I think over all they have been a bloody shambles. I don't see how anyone could have a lot of confidence about the course St.Mirren might take under their control in the increasingly unlikely looking event that the funding is accomplished. Even if the £500k. funding comes through the fans alone taking on £1m of debt is a nonsense.

The board of St.Mirren seems to have disappeared. I imagine they are sulking with the fans in the belief that the fans shafted them. Tough titty. I know you don't like SG and I don't suppose you are very keen on the others. What you have against SMiSA seems a bit childish. Do you want buying t-shirts and towels to become a hanging offence?

Going back to 10.000 hours I think it's far from just Sid and Somner who have grave reservations. To be fair several others have voiced concerns too. But there is a body around who simply won't hear a bad word said about them. I really believe that possibly a significant number who have signed up (I still am at the moment) have done so more on a wing and a prayer than belief. I also worry a bit about the blurring of borders between buy out money and SOS money. (Save Our Saints)

Ok Rick, here's the latest e-mail I got this week from Gary Hocknull - I think it demonstrates clearly what I am referring too and just how wildly wrong St Mirren have got it.

Coaches wanted......

St Mirren Football Club are now recruiting coaches to work within a variety of programmes across the Football Club.

Perhaps you have experience working with young players, have attended Coach Education courses and are now looking for a new challenge. We have vacancies within our Community Football Centres, School Holiday Programmes and Junior Academy which may be what you are looking for. Minimum Level 3 coaches required but not essential.

Or maybe you are an enthusiastic and trustworthy individual who is able to build a rapport and develop positive working relationships with young people through Sport. St Mirren deliver far more than just Football, perhaps you are a Multi-Sports Coach who would be suited to work within our ‘Street Stuff’ Programme. You may even have a passion for Music or Dance and would like to inspire others with your talent. You may even have a fantastic idea for a different activity (sporting or otherwise) we could deliver within the Programme to engage young people. If you have we want to hear about it!

If you are interested in applying, or would like some more information regarding the opportunities available at St Mirren Football Club, please contact Steven Sweeney by e-mail on [email protected] or by phone on (0141) 840-6131.

Now forget the fact that it's a really poorly worded advert that leaves you wondering whether it's a football coach or a dance coach that they want and consider how this looks to your average juvenile football club.

In recent years the SFA has been keen to promote their Quality Mark programme. The drive has led them to set minimum standards of Level 2 coaches for all juvenile boys clubs before allowing any club to complete their registration process that allows them to compete in any league or cup set up. As an SFA Community Coach Gary Hocknull runs these coaching courses in the local Paisley area. I know from experience that he won't run a course unless there are sufficient numbers on it for his department to make a profit on it, and at our club - and at most others - the coaching courses are paid for by the clubs out of club funds. Last year for example Wishaw Wycombe spent nearly £2,000 on coach education courses. Yet here we see that Gary is approaching those coaches - already qualified - to come and work for St Mirren.

Why attempt to poach away coaches from local juvenile football clubs? How does that serve the community? How does that develop football talent? All it does is it allows St Mirren to run some school holiday programmes to greedily grab their share of McDonalds and Lloyds TSB funding as well as charging kids to take part in the session.

St Mirren and the local community would have been far better served by collaboration. For example in North Lanarkshire Stevie Hamilton and Andy Smith had the good sense to ask their Quality Marked clubs to set up football academies that would see the juvenile clubs benefit from free coaching courses using the McDonalds funding, and that any money charged from the kids would go straight to the juvenile club to either pay their coaches themselves, or to use the money to boost club funds - and any good talent that turns up at those academies can then be recruited straight into juvenile football through the coaches they've come to know through the academy providing a proper route map that sees new footballers recruited into the sport to be developed by coaches that are qualified and experienced in taking raw talent off the streets and teaching them the basics of the sport.

You've also got to ask why the f**k St Mirren think an e-mail like this would create a music and dance group that would be beneficial to the club too - if it's not about ticking a box to get more money. Surely a better approach would again be to collaborate with a local dance school with an established record in the industry. Let those qualified dance instructors handle the introduction to dance and if the child wants to continue after the course is finished they've got a natural introduction into the dance school. The funding too should be passed on to the dance school as part of the deal, and where St Mirren should try to make their money is through the additional footfall into the stadium with the running of a cafe to provide parents with something to do while they wait, and to provide the kids with the refreshments they'll need once they are finished.

St Mirren are on the wrong route Rick, and I really doubt that SMiSA would have anything like the ability to get it back on track. At least an SEN could work to build trust in the community in a way that the current grab for cash really doesn't.

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Saints are on the right course with this idea, Street Stuff for instance is a great way of connecting with young people,it's not all about football it's about getting youngsters involved in stuff that is relevant to THEIR needs and interests if that leads them onto other interests then it has worked. We have to listen to the people that it is aimed at.

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Guest somner9

Saints are on the right course with this idea, Street Stuff for instance is a great way of connecting with young people,it's not all about football it's about getting youngsters involved in stuff that is relevant to THEIR needs and interests if that leads them onto other interests then it has worked. We have to listen to the people that it is aimed at.

Here, here.... Its all about Buddies, not Blowhard bawbags!

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Saints are on the right course with this idea, Street Stuff for instance is a great way of connecting with young people,it's not all about football it's about getting youngsters involved in stuff that is relevant to THEIR needs and interests if that leads them onto other interests then it has worked. We have to listen to the people that it is aimed at.

Absolutely, but who is better placed to deliver those courses? Is it the local dance school that will still be there after six weeks, with all their instructors experience of bringing kids into dance, or is it the local football club who are having to stick out adverts in e-mails for anyone who might be interested in doing it for them?

Just because there is a grant available for the delivery of the session doesn't mean St Mirren should jump on it. If they don't have the relevant experience, or the commitment to run these things long term then they aren't serving the community at all. A far better way to deliver these sessions would be in collaboration - as I've said. Bring in the local dance school. Offer them the grant. Let them use the facilities and market it for what it is - a collaboration between the local dance school and the football club.

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Don't want to quote your whole reply,Stu but your comment about 'how St.Mirren have got it wildly wrong' jumps out at me. Firstly, I've only got your word for it that it's wildly wrong. How are you so sure North Lanarkshire have got it right? Secondly, in terms of where we, and by that I mean St.Mirren are at the present time, we have more to worry us than youth coaching in the short term. You are a true blue tory but you seem to object that St.Mirren might poach a coach, if you'll pardon the expression. Is that not a big part of a free market economy?

There must be room in the world of football for all kind of initiatives to get kids interested. When I was a youngster it was a big thing to get any involvement with a professional football team, preferably St.Mirren. I don't think that has changed but I realise it is incumbent on the clubs not to simply suck in all the local half decent kids and then spit them out if they don't measure up. I hope St.Mirren can and will provide a lot of attractions for kids but especially in a football sense.

I agree with you that St.Mirren are very bad at some things and PR is one of them. The silence of the last couple of weeks is disgraceful. The 10,000 hours thing is I think a bit of a horlicks but you still seem broadly in favour despite cancelling your direct debits. You were attracted by the community side of things. I think that's all very nice but what I want from the next owner whoever it may be is a successful, financially secure St.Mirren FC playing good football. For me the off the field activities will always be secondary but not unimportant.

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Don't want to quote your whole reply,Stu but your comment about 'how St.Mirren have got it wildly wrong' jumps out at me. Firstly, I've only got your word for it that it's wildly wrong. How are you so sure North Lanarkshire have got it right? Secondly, in terms of where we, and by that I mean St.Mirren are at the present time, we have more to worry us than youth coaching in the short term. You are a true blue tory but you seem to object that St.Mirren might poach a coach, if you'll pardon the expression. Is that not a big part of a free market economy?

There must be room in the world of football for all kind of initiatives to get kids interested. When I was a youngster it was a big thing to get any involvement with a professional football team, preferably St.Mirren. I don't think that has changed but I realise it is incumbent on the clubs not to simply suck in all the local half decent kids and then spit them out if they don't measure up. I hope St.Mirren can and will provide a lot of attractions for kids but especially in a football sense.

I agree with you that St.Mirren are very bad at some things and PR is one of them. The silence of the last couple of weeks is disgraceful. The 10,000 hours thing is I think a bit of a horlicks but you still seem broadly in favour despite cancelling your direct debits. You were attracted by the community side of things. I think that's all very nice but what I want from the next owner whoever it may be is a successful, financially secure St.Mirren FC playing good football. For me the off the field activities will always be secondary but not unimportant.

Rick, St Mirren have got it wildly wrong, because they are still spectacularly failing to grasp the bigger picture for a small amount of short term gain.

Consider this. Lets say instead of Gary sending out his e-mail he approached some of the local clubs in the town who he will have been working to guide them to Quality Mark level and he suggests a collaboration. He puts it to the club committee that they help St Mirren run their school holiday programme and help set up a junior academy at Greenhill Road in return for some free coach education courses and for a pile of free footballs, cones, or coaching kit branded in the juvenile clubs logo. Indeed had a bit of advanced thought gone into it perhaps they could also have offered St Mirren kit as training strips using programme that they have with JD Sports offering free kit with season ticket purchases.

The benefit to the juvenile club comes in the form of the equipment donated, the benefit to the child is that they get the same training programme but with a route into an established football club if they want to continue to play football beyond the programme and the benefit to St Mirren is through the increased footfall into the stadium area every day, revenue raising opportunities from selling refreshments, and the positive PR of being involved in a good community programme whilst also working with an established community football club. Of course there are further benefits available to St Mirren from having a good working relationship with juvenile football clubs but I've already covered that when I talked about the expansion of the scouting network and the opportunity to use it to attract new supporters to the club so there is no need to go back over that again.

As it is St Mirren are being seen to have sent out an e-mail attempting to poach volunteers from the clubs who have paid St Mirren for their coach education with the promise of a job - which in reality will be casual and season work at best. And all of this is to deliver a two week community programme to some kids who at the end of the period will be a pile of cash lighter and who will be left to their own devices to try and find a juvenile club, that may or may not be quality marked, if they want to continue to play football. This doesn't serve the community or the players at all and it only serves St Mirren from the point of view that they've managed to tick a box that might get them a small amount of grant money.

In North Lanarkshire the local Development Coaches and the education authorities approached Wishaw Wycombe to set up a football academy in one of the local primary schools. It's open to anyone up to the age of 11 but it was specifically targeted at getting girls into football. It's been an outstanding success and it's been continued long term now with Wishaw Wycombe registering their first two girls teams and the numbers have continued to grow. North Lanarkshire Council are delighted because they are seen to be meeting their objectives in terms of sport involvement, the education authorities are happy because they've got qualified football coaches helping them deliver and after school activity, and Wishaw Wycombe are delighted because they now have 40 new members, and two new girls football teams which helps the club progress to a higher level of the SFA Quality Mark. And most importantly of all the kids themselves appear to be delighted because they are loving their football, training twice a week, and playing in tournaments all over Scotland.

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I don't doubt his (Rea) integrity, But its obvious he and 10000 hours do not have the credibility to attract the investment, funding, and business they said way back; was already in the bag. thats the rub for me they actually said time and again that the funding was their ready to be drawn down, they just need 300 fans to sign up.

Well they got over a 1000 and still they nose dived. Not only was the job too big for them, they strung us all along for years, and when it came to fronting up they had to admit most of their claims just didn't stack up.

But we are still St Mirren, and we will go on. Keep the faith Re-born!

I think saying 'strung along' is a bit harsh. RA has worked hard at trying to make this happen, though unfortunately it doesn't look like its materialised.

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Rick, St Mirren have got it wildly wrong, because they are still spectacularly failing to grasp the bigger picture for a small amount of short term gain.

Consider this. Lets say instead of Gary sending out his e-mail he approached some of the local clubs in the town who he will have been working to guide them to Quality Mark level and he suggests a collaboration. He puts it to the club committee that they help St Mirren run their school holiday programme and help set up a junior academy at Greenhill Road in return for some free coach education courses and for a pile of free footballs, cones, or coaching kit branded in the juvenile clubs logo. Indeed had a bit of advanced thought gone into it perhaps they could also have offered St Mirren kit as training strips using programme that they have with JD Sports offering free kit with season ticket purchases.

The benefit to the juvenile club comes in the form of the equipment donated, the benefit to the child is that they get the same training programme but with a route into an established football club if they want to continue to play football beyond the programme and the benefit to St Mirren is through the increased footfall into the stadium area every day, revenue raising opportunities from selling refreshments, and the positive PR of being involved in a good community programme whilst also working with an established community football club. Of course there are further benefits available to St Mirren from having a good working relationship with juvenile football clubs but I've already covered that when I talked about the expansion of the scouting network and the opportunity to use it to attract new supporters to the club so there is no need to go back over that again.

As it is St Mirren are being seen to have sent out an e-mail attempting to poach volunteers from the clubs who have paid St Mirren for their coach education with the promise of a job - which in reality will be casual and season work at best. And all of this is to deliver a two week community programme to some kids who at the end of the period will be a pile of cash lighter and who will be left to their own devices to try and find a juvenile club, that may or may not be quality marked, if they want to continue to play football. This doesn't serve the community or the players at all and it only serves St Mirren from the point of view that they've managed to tick a box that might get them a small amount of grant money.

In North Lanarkshire the local Development Coaches and the education authorities approached Wishaw Wycombe to set up a football academy in one of the local primary schools. It's open to anyone up to the age of 11 but it was specifically targeted at getting girls into football. It's been an outstanding success and it's been continued long term now with Wishaw Wycombe registering their first two girls teams and the numbers have continued to grow. North Lanarkshire Council are delighted because they are seen to be meeting their objectives in terms of sport involvement, the education authorities are happy because they've got qualified football coaches helping them deliver and after school activity, and Wishaw Wycombe are delighted because they now have 40 new members, and two new girls football teams which helps the club progress to a higher level of the SFA Quality Mark. And most importantly of all the kids themselves appear to be delighted because they are loving their football, training twice a week, and playing in tournaments all over Scotland.

Again I don't want to quote your whole reply. I don't know the rights and wrongs here. Perhaps Gary and St.Mirren think their course of action is the best thing for St.Mirren even if it doesn't meet with your approval. Do you both have to be wrong? St.Mirren's goals may be different to yours. (I don't believe I just typed that!) There can be more than one way to skin a cat.

The bulk of St.Mirren fans just want a successful team on the park. If we can be philanthropic to the community while making a few extra bob, then good enough. We want a good team first and foremost. I personally want that more than I want community involvement but I grant you that they are not mutually exclusive.

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Again I don't want to quote your whole reply. I don't know the rights and wrongs here. Perhaps Gary and St.Mirren think their course of action is the best thing for St.Mirren even if it doesn't meet with your approval. Do you both have to be wrong? St.Mirren's goals may be different to yours. (I don't believe I just typed that!) There can be more than one way to skin a cat.

The bulk of St.Mirren fans just want a successful team on the park. If we can be philanthropic to the community while making a few extra bob, then good enough. We want a good team first and foremost. I personally want that more than I want community involvement but I grant you that they are not mutually exclusive.

This is the mistake you and the club are making Rick. It's not philanthropic - it's good business sense. You don't land up with the ridiculous situation of telling your fans that the club will need to make redundancies whilst sending out recruitment e-mails - and you land up with an economically viable programme that you can replicate over and over again without the need for grants and subsidies. All of this whilst you get your branding out there to a ready made football daft market.

As I said right back at the start though the problem with football supporters, and particularly St Mirren fans is that they are too stupid to see the bigger picture. Most talk about a "traditional ownership model" as though it was always the norm for football clubs to be Limited Companies or PLC's with shares being traded when in reality World Football endured it's greatest and most rapid rise in popularity when most clubs had a similar model and structure to that of your average juvenile football club. Most can't get their head around sharing resources and they particularly struggle to see the benefit juvenile clubs could bring to senior football - even when faced with the evidence of a recruitment campaign from the senior club looking to get coaches who have gained their qualifications thanks to the funding of juvenile clubs.

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Stuart as I understand it Street Stuff does not just "walk away" it is the means to connect youngsters with what interests them that is what it's all about not telling them that's what your getting

So what happens to kids that turn up at St Mirren astro on the 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th July and 3rd and 10th of August? Where do they go after that?

It's an activity for kids to take part in during the summer but it's no more than a taster session and there is no link up with community clubs to ensure those who like it will develop it further.

Compare Street Stuff with the UK Athletics Star Track scheme if you like. At Star Track local athletics coaches are paid by the local authority to deliver a two day track and field taster session for local kids to take part in. Once it's finished the coaches then hand out promotional literature produced for them by the local authority to recruit those kids in as athletes to their athletic club. That makes sense - this doesn't.

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This is the mistake you and the club are making Rick. It's not philanthropic - it's good business sense. You don't land up with the ridiculous situation of telling your fans that the club will need to make redundancies whilst sending out recruitment e-mails - and you land up with an economically viable programme that you can replicate over and over again without the need for grants and subsidies. All of this whilst you get your branding out there to a ready made football daft market.

As I said right back at the start though the problem with football supporters, and particularly St Mirren fans is that they are too stupid to see the bigger picture. Most talk about a "traditional ownership model" as though it was always the norm for football clubs to be Limited Companies or PLC's with shares being traded when in reality World Football endured it's greatest and most rapid rise in popularity when most clubs had a similar model and structure to that of your average juvenile football club. Most can't get their head around sharing resources and they particularly struggle to see the benefit juvenile clubs could bring to senior football - even when faced with the evidence of a recruitment campaign from the senior club looking to get coaches who have gained their qualifications thanks to the funding of juvenile clubs.

With regard to your first paragraph, the ridiculous situation you describe was a nonsense and the fans saw through it. Admittedly it appears that a majority on the Tuesday night meeting appear to have been duped by SG's scaremongering. Even had St.Mirren been in community ownership at that time, I would take a lot of convincing that things would have been significantly better. You seem to think that your prototype is the panacea for all British Football's ills. Clubs can be much better run but not only as envisaged by you.

Regarding your second paragraph, I'm sick and tired of your insulting remarks about St.Mirren fans in particular being too stupid to see the bigger picture. I really think you should knock it on the head or stop posting here. You would think the whole football world agrees with you. It doesn't. You have your little corner of Lanarkshire where everything in the garden is rosy. Maybe Renfrewshire doesn't want your infallible system.

Do you think your juvenile trained coaches will ever be allowed near the first team of SPL clubs?Maybe the very odd one.

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With regard to your first paragraph, the ridiculous situation you describe was a nonsense and the fans saw through it. Admittedly it appears that a majority on the Tuesday night meeting appear to have been duped by SG's scaremongering. Even had St.Mirren been in community ownership at that time, I would take a lot of convincing that things would have been significantly better. You seem to think that your prototype is the panacea for all British Football's ills. Clubs can be much better run but not only as envisaged by you.

Regarding your second paragraph, I'm sick and tired of your insulting remarks about St.Mirren fans in particular being too stupid to see the bigger picture. I really think you should knock it on the head or stop posting here. You would think the whole football world agrees with you. It doesn't. You have your little corner of Lanarkshire where everything in the garden is rosy. Maybe Renfrewshire doesn't want your infallible system.

Do you think your juvenile trained coaches will ever be allowed near the first team of SPL clubs?Maybe the very odd one.

Oh FFS.

What started this ya daft twat? It's an e-mail from Gary Hocknull trying to recruit Level 3 coaches "although not essential" from local boys clubs. So lets get by the pish about "juvenile trained coaches" not being good enough.

Secondly, you are doing your best to prove me right Rick. St Mirren fans in particular are too stupid to see a bigger picture - that bigger picture is happening in Germany right now but clearly you think the German national squad is struggling in comparison with Scotland, and clubs like the European Champion Cup Runners Up - Bayern Munich - have fluked their way through the competition when clearly it's the likes of Rangers and Celtic who should be winning because the Scottish system is so good we've got nothing to learn from anywhere else.

SEN run clubs are exactly the way forward Rick whether 10000hours leads the way or not because there is one simple principle you cannot get away from. That is that you will never get the support of your local community, if your club isn't supporting the community first.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Ok Rick, here's the latest e-mail I got this week from Gary Hocknull - I think it demonstrates clearly what I am referring too and just how wildly wrong St Mirren have got it.

Now forget the fact that it's a really poorly worded advert that leaves you wondering whether it's a football coach or a dance coach that they want and consider how this looks to your average juvenile football club.

In recent years the SFA has been keen to promote their Quality Mark programme. The drive has led them to set minimum standards of Level 2 coaches for all juvenile boys clubs before allowing any club to complete their registration process that allows them to compete in any league or cup set up. As an SFA Community Coach Gary Hocknull runs these coaching courses in the local Paisley area. I know from experience that he won't run a course unless there are sufficient numbers on it for his department to make a profit on it, and at our club - and at most others - the coaching courses are paid for by the clubs out of club funds. Last year for example Wishaw Wycombe spent nearly £2,000 on coach education courses. Yet here we see that Gary is approaching those coaches - already qualified - to come and work for St Mirren.

Why attempt to poach away coaches from local juvenile football clubs? How does that serve the community? How does that develop football talent? All it does is it allows St Mirren to run some school holiday programmes to greedily grab their share of McDonalds and Lloyds TSB funding as well as charging kids to take part in the session.

St Mirren and the local community would have been far better served by collaboration. For example in North Lanarkshire Stevie Hamilton and Andy Smith had the good sense to ask their Quality Marked clubs to set up football academies that would see the juvenile clubs benefit from free coaching courses using the McDonalds funding, and that any money charged from the kids would go straight to the juvenile club to either pay their coaches themselves, or to use the money to boost club funds - and any good talent that turns up at those academies can then be recruited straight into juvenile football through the coaches they've come to know through the academy providing a proper route map that sees new footballers recruited into the sport to be developed by coaches that are qualified and experienced in taking raw talent off the streets and teaching them the basics of the sport.

You've also got to ask why the f**k St Mirren think an e-mail like this would create a music and dance group that would be beneficial to the club too - if it's not about ticking a box to get more money. Surely a better approach would again be to collaborate with a local dance school with an established record in the industry. Let those qualified dance instructors handle the introduction to dance and if the child wants to continue after the course is finished they've got a natural introduction into the dance school. The funding too should be passed on to the dance school as part of the deal, and where St Mirren should try to make their money is through the additional footfall into the stadium with the running of a cafe to provide parents with something to do while they wait, and to provide the kids with the refreshments they'll need once they are finished.

St Mirren are on the wrong route Rick, and I really doubt that SMiSA would have anything like the ability to get it back on track. At least an SEN could work to build trust in the community in a way that the current grab for cash really doesn't.

I think you are on the wrong track. Street stuff is different from the normal football coaching.

Street stuff works in conjunction with Strathclyde police and Renfrewshire council and is aimed at working in the different communities, taking kids off the streets and giving them something to do. I think the street stuff operates most nights all year round and started off with mobile pitches going round different locations in Renfrewshire and the kids enjoying playing football and getting some coaching. From there it grew to include other activities such as a mobile dance area and I believe it also now includes a mobile climbing wall. The results show that anti social beahviour in the areas where street stuff works has been reduced by 35% , some of the kids have got involved in cleaning graffiti and picking up litter in the areas where they live and hopefully some of them will go on to get more involved imn the activities they have been able to try because of this initiative. I'd say that's good for the communities.

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