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10000Hours Update: 23Rd July 2012


Drew

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I think you are on the wrong track. Street stuff is different from the normal football coaching.

Street stuff works in conjunction with Strathclyde police and Renfrewshire council and is aimed at working in the different communities, taking kids off the streets and giving them something to do. I think the street stuff operates most nights all year round and started off with mobile pitches going round different locations in Renfrewshire and the kids enjoying playing football and getting some coaching. From there it grew to include other activities such as a mobile dance area and I believe it also now includes a mobile climbing wall. The results show that anti social beahviour in the areas where street stuff works has been reduced by 35% , some of the kids have got involved in cleaning graffiti and picking up litter in the areas where they live and hopefully some of them will go on to get more involved imn the activities they have been able to try because of this initiative. I'd say that's good for the communities.

There is nothing wrong with the initiative, it's the implementation of the project that I am questioning. Taster sessions in themselves are absolutely fine. The Star Track initiative for example is a superb two day introduction into athletics for kids, run by athletics coaches from local clubs. Those who try it and don't fancy it will go home with all their goodies having had two days of fun, but others who want to keep on taking part in athletics will have a direct route into the local club where they will have already met their coaches and will know what to expect. Can anyone say the same thing about the Street Stuff football programme being run at Greenhill Road? Do the kids who take part there have a direct route to organised football? Will they have already met their new club coaches? Are St Mirren recommending local clubs, and particularly since Gary Hocknull is involved, are they careful to ensure that they are only recommending Quality Marked clubs? And for those who don't want to progress their football beyond having a kick about - are they guaranteed access to Greenhill Road every week so they can continue to have their kick about whether or not the initiative continues to be funded?

Sid complained a few months back about the running of the Music Works group at the club where the sessions just ended without parents being warned or advised, and where promises weren't delivered. How many of those kids were then helped into other music lesson type groups so they could continue to learn once St Mirren had pulled the plug on the project?

For me therein is the problem. St Mirren are advertising for coaches to help deliver these projects - when they would be far better collaborating with existing groups in the community who have a proven, checkable track record and who will be able to continue with those childrens development long after the funding St Mirren In The Community is relying on for delivering their schemes has dried up.

The hurdle of course is trust, and lets face it why would the likes of Mossvale St James, Barrhead Boys Club or Renfrew Vics trust St Mirren when their community coach, who has cashed their cheques as they put their coaches through the mandatory coach education courses, is sending out e-mails to them all trying to recruit their volunteers away from their club to help deliver projects that divert funding away from groups that should be getting the cash, into St Mirren's bank account.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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There is nothing wrong with the initiative, it's the implementation of the project that I am questioning. Taster sessions in themselves are absolutely fine. The Star Track initiative for example is a superb two day introduction into athletics for kids, run by athletics coaches from local clubs. Those who try it and don't fancy it will go home with all their goodies having had two days of fun, but others who want to keep on taking part in athletics will have a direct route into the local club where they will have already met their coaches and will know what to expect. Can anyone say the same thing about the Street Stuff football programme being run at Greenhill Road? Do the kids who take part there have a direct route to organised football? Will they have already met their new club coaches? Are St Mirren recommending local clubs, and particularly since Gary Hocknull is involved, are they careful to ensure that they are only recommending Quality Marked clubs? And for those who don't want to progress their football beyond having a kick about - are they guaranteed access to Greenhill Road every week so they can continue to have their kick about whether or not the initiative continues to be funde

There is nothing wrong with the initiative, it's the implementation of the project that I am questioning. Taster sessions in themselves are absolutely fine. The Star Track initiative for example is a superb two day introduction into athletics for kids, run by athletics coaches from local clubs. Those who try it and don't fancy it will go home with all their goodies having had two days of fun, but others who want to keep on taking part in athletics will have a direct route into the local club where they will have already met their coaches and will know what to expect. Can anyone say the same thing about the Street Stuff football programme being run at Greenhill Road? Do the kids who take part there have a direct route to organised football? Will they have already met their new club coaches? Are St Mirren recommending local clubs, and particularly since Gary Hocknull is involved, are they careful to ensure that they are only recommending Quality Marked clubs? And for those who don't want to progress their football beyond having a kick about - are they guaranteed access to Greenhill Road every week so they can continue to have their kick about whether or not the initiative continues to be funded ?

Greenhill road is only one of the locations these take place. The initiative is taken round the schemes of Paisley and surrounding towns and operates at a different location every night, all year round. It is not about finding players for the youth clubs (although that could be one of the benefits, if the kids were good enough) it is designed more to give kids something fun to do at night other than hang around the streets drinking. It has won UK wide awards for the success it has been and is fully supported by Strathclyde police and Renfrewshire council, the cost to them for part funding the project is probably easily recouped by the reduction of costs due to anti social behaviour.

Sid complained a few months back about the running of the Music Works group at the club where the sessions just ended without parents being warned or advised, and where promises weren't delivered. How many of those kids were then helped into other music lesson type groups so they could continue to learn once St Mirren had pulled the plug on the project?

I don't know much about the music Works group and how many kids were involved but suspect that was a different initiative from Street Stuff.

For me therein is the problem. St Mirren are advertising for coaches to help deliver these projects - when they would be far better collaborating with existing groups in the community who have a proven, checkable track record and who will be able to continue with those childrens development long after the funding St Mirren In The Community is relying on for delivering their schemes has dried up.

You are looking at Street Stuff purely as an initiative to find players for the youth team, it is not designed for that but as an anti-anto social behaviour initiative working in the communities. If kids get some coaching and are good enought to join a youth team, then fine but that is not the primary objective fo Street Stuff.

The hurdle of course is trust, and lets face it why would the likes of Mossvale St James, Barrhead Boys Club or Renfrew Vics trust St Mirren when their community coach, who has cashed their cheques as they put their coaches through the mandatory coach education courses, is sending out e-mails to them all trying to recruit their volunteers away from their club to help deliver projects that divert funding away from groups that should be getting the cash, into St Mirren's bank account.

Sid complained a few months back about the running of the Music Works group at the club where the sessions just ended without parents being warned or advised, and where promises weren't delivered. How many of those kids were then helped into other music lesson type groups so they could continue to learn once St Mirren had pulled the plug on the project?

For me therein is the problem. St Mirren are advertising for coaches to help deliver these projects - when they would be far better collaborating with existing groups in the community who have a proven, checkable track record and who will be able to continue with those childrens development long after the funding St Mirren In The Community is relying on for delivering their schemes has dried up.

The hurdle of course is trust, and lets face it why would the likes of Mossvale St James, Barrhead Boys Club or Renfrew Vics trust St Mirren when their community coach, who has cashed their cheques as they put their coaches through the mandatory coach education courses, is sending out e-mails to them all trying to recruit their volunteers away from their club to help deliver projects that divert funding away from groups that should be getting the cash, into St Mirren's bank account.

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Oh FFS.

What started this ya daft twat? It's an e-mail from Gary Hocknull trying to recruit Level 3 coaches "although not essential" from local boys clubs. So lets get by the pish about "juvenile trained coaches" not being good enough.

Secondly, you are doing your best to prove me right Rick. St Mirren fans in particular are too stupid to see a bigger picture - that bigger picture is happening in Germany right now but clearly you think the German national squad is struggling in comparison with Scotland, and clubs like the European Champion Cup Runners Up - Bayern Munich - have fluked their way through the competition when clearly it's the likes of Rangers and Celtic who should be winning because the Scottish system is so good we've got nothing to learn from anywhere else.

SEN run clubs are exactly the way forward Rick whether 10000hours leads the way or not because there is one simple principle you cannot get away from. That is that you will never get the support of your local community, if your club isn't supporting the community first.

Oh FFs, to quote you. I must have dreamed that Spain, not Germany won the last few tournaments. If you are telling me some juvenile, Scottish Coaches helped them out, then obviously I'll believe you. Those cheeky Spanish bastards are just plain lucky. Over the years I have been watching football I have heard time and again that a particular country has it absolutely right and it can't be bettered. Guess what? It does get bettered. That goes back to Alf Ramsey's 4-2-4. We in Scotland cottoned on late and threw our tanner ba' players into touch. If we had held our nerve we would have done better in the long term.

I have enjoyed a lot of your posts at times but your gratuitous hatred of St.Mirren and your detrimental remarks about our fans are over the top. Could you please pick on another team you hate? The total support of the local community may well be a plus but it is not a prerequisite for success. But keep ploughing your lonely furrow. You might convert a few.

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Oh FFs, to quote you. I must have dreamed that Spain, not Germany won the last few tournaments. If you are telling me some juvenile, Scottish Coaches helped them out, then obviously I'll believe you. Those cheeky Spanish bastards are just plain lucky. Over the years I have been watching football I have heard time and again that a particular country has it absolutely right and it can't be bettered. Guess what? It does get bettered. That goes back to Alf Ramsey's 4-2-4. We in Scotland cottoned on late and threw our tanner ba' players into touch. If we had held our nerve we would have done better in the long term.

I have enjoyed a lot of your posts at times but your gratuitous hatred of St.Mirren and your detrimental remarks about our fans are over the top. Could you please pick on another team you hate? The total support of the local community may well be a plus but it is not a prerequisite for success. But keep ploughing your lonely furrow. You might convert a few.

And what happens in Spain then dafty? Check out Barcelona and their ownership model....:rolleyes:

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And what happens in Spain then dafty? Check out Barcelona and their ownership model....rolleyes.gif

I knew you would come back to mention Barcelona. I think what Barcelona have proved unquestionably is that there is no substitute for skill. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Coaching is important but it's only a means to an end. I remember in Matt Busby's time the eternal question was asked:- 'If you could hand pick the best eleven players in the world, would they become the best team in the world?' Of course it's unanswerable. Another great manager, Brian Clough , always maintained that there was no substitute for skill. You can improve some players, sometimes considerably, but they have to have the inborn skills.

Barcelona's fan ownership and success hasn't prevented them having among the biggest debt levels of the leading clubs in the world and reputedly paying the highest wages. I admit it's possible that Man City may now have that dubious honour. I will grant you that having something coming close to 200k. socios must be a big comfort. If St.Mirren can come up with around £11,000 per month from a thousand odd guys, just think what Barca could raise if needed. Mind you the economic situation in Spain can't be helping and the Euro could be in its death throws. And to think we're crapping ourselves at the thought of fans taking on £1m.of debt. As indeed we should be.

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I knew you would come back to mention Barcelona. I think what Barcelona have proved unquestionably is that there is no substitute for skill. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Coaching is important but it's only a means to an end. I remember in Matt Busby's time the eternal question was asked:- 'If you could hand pick the best eleven players in the world, would they become the best team in the world?' Of course it's unanswerable. Another great manager, Brian Clough , always maintained that there was no substitute for skill. You can improve some players, sometimes considerably, but they have to have the inborn skills.

Barcelona's fan ownership and success hasn't prevented them having among the biggest debt levels of the leading clubs in the world and reputedly paying the highest wages. I admit it's possible that Man City may now have that dubious honour. I will grant you that having something coming close to 200k. socios must be a big comfort. If St.Mirren can come up with around £11,000 per month from a thousand odd guys, just think what Barca could raise if needed. Mind you the economic situation in Spain can't be helping and the Euro could be in its death throws. And to think we're crapping ourselves at the thought of fans taking on £1m.of debt. As indeed we should be.

You are well away from the point now Rick. To refresh your memory I was talking about how St Mirren would be better collaborating with local juvenile clubs than trying to poach coaches away from the same clubs. The fact that Gary Hocknull is attempting to recruit coaches is undeniable so f**k knows where you are going with this now. Do you think Spanish football clubs don't have coaches? Do you think they don't coach their kids? If so why is it that every Spanish club has their own football academy?

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You are well away from the point now Rick. To refresh your memory I was talking about how St Mirren would be better collaborating with local juvenile clubs than trying to poach coaches away from the same clubs. The fact that Gary Hocknull is attempting to recruit coaches is undeniable so f**k knows where you are going with this now. Do you think Spanish football clubs don't have coaches? Do you think they don't coach their kids? If so why is it that every Spanish club has their own football academy?

Of course Spanish clubs have coaches and I'm sure they're good. You raised Barcelona not me. The topic here is 10,000 hours and you have been a consistent supporter of fan ownership and community involvement. I'm not even convinced about fan ownership but I went along with the flow initially. But not fan ownership at any cost. Barcelona are held up as a shining light but are still a few hundred thousand euros in debt. Admittedly with their massive turnover, like Man U ,they can carry it.

Have you asked Gary why he preferred to advertise for coaches? We all like to watch players but we know they get poached and greedy and move on. C'est la vie. Maybe Gary has sound reasons for his approach. Perhaps St.Mirren can't afford an academy set up. Bigger clubs than us don't have one.

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Of course Spanish clubs have coaches and I'm sure they're good. You raised Barcelona not me. The topic here is 10,000 hours and you have been a consistent supporter of fan ownership and community involvement. I'm not even convinced about fan ownership but I went along with the flow initially. But not fan ownership at any cost. Barcelona are held up as a shining light but are still a few hundred thousand euros in debt. Admittedly with their massive turnover, like Man U ,they can carry it.

Have you asked Gary why he preferred to advertise for coaches? We all like to watch players but we know they get poached and greedy and move on. C'est la vie. Maybe Gary has sound reasons for his approach. Perhaps St.Mirren can't afford an academy set up. Bigger clubs than us don't have one.

Rick - try and follow the conversation. :rolleyes: How many times did I say the word "collaboration"? What I am saying St Mirren should be doing would cost less than what St Mirren are doing. I haven't suggested setting up a training academy once.

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Law stud ma man ! I know yir familluar way Pipe's ? Any chance of given me the lowdowm on this Fcker that me & Sid ur choking on ? whistling.gif

As much as I know my pipes I can honestly say I have no experience of choking on one. Can you give me more information? For example is it 1/2", 1", 2", 4" or 6"? What end is the flange on? Are there any nipples on it? I'm not quite sure how you and Sid could both be choking on it at the same time though? Are you sure it isn't just a double penetration vibrator?

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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Rick - try and follow the conversation. rolleyes.gif How many times did I say the word "collaboration"? What I am saying St Mirren should be doing would cost less than what St Mirren are doing. I haven't suggested setting up a training academy once.

Stu- try listening to me. St.Mirren have decided on a course of action which they think is best for them. You choose to differ which you always do when we are talking about St.Mirren. You don 't have it in you to say something good about us. You appear only to have got involved again because you think fan ownership and community involvement is the only potential saviour for the world of football. I don't think that's a given.

I've read the advert but like many it says little about the job. What gives you the right to tell us what Gary or St.Mirren have in mind? A crystal ball? Honestly Stu, I realise this will be a new concept for you but does it ever cross your mind that you might be wrong? That's a rhetorical question.

I mentioned football academies only because you raised it. I think it would be great if we could afford one but we know now that Saints are barely breaking even. It's unlikely teams like us could ever afford one.

I enjoy some of your input to this forum. Stu. But your gratuitous insulting of all the fans of St.Mirren is a damned disgrace. Your view of everything to do with St.Mirren is clouded by the knock back you got years ago and which you frequently remind us about. If you can't mend your ways you would be better contributing to the forum of a team who you quite like rather than our team which you detest from the bottom of your heart.

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Stu- try listening to me. St.Mirren have decided on a course of action which they think is best for them. You choose to differ which you always do when we are talking about St.Mirren. You don 't have it in you to say something good about us. You appear only to have got involved again because you think fan ownership and community involvement is the only potential saviour for the world of football. I don't think that's a given.

I've read the advert but like many it says little about the job. What gives you the right to tell us what Gary or St.Mirren have in mind? A crystal ball? Honestly Stu, I realise this will be a new concept for you but does it ever cross your mind that you might be wrong? That's a rhetorical question.

I mentioned football academies only because you raised it. I think it would be great if we could afford one but we know now that Saints are barely breaking even. It's unlikely teams like us could ever afford one.

I enjoy some of your input to this forum. Stu. But your gratuitous insulting of all the fans of St.Mirren is a damned disgrace. Your view of everything to do with St.Mirren is clouded by the knock back you got years ago and which you frequently remind us about. If you can't mend your ways you would be better contributing to the forum of a team who you quite like rather than our team which you detest from the bottom of your heart.

Rick i would never normally condone it but a few buds on here have made me see the light as regards not entertaining this guy and his hate-filled posts agianst all things st mirren and paisley. You have to question what does he get out of it? Only thing we can think of is he loves the attention and getting people barred.

as always its up to you bud, however myself and a few others have decided there is no value in getting involved with the hate-mail style posting.

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The thread appears to have gone wildly off track...where's tedious tom?

Stu makes some good points about the community side of St Mirren. However, it is hardly justification for handing control of the club over to an underfunded, underplanned scheme.....Stu's increasingly frustrated rants suggest to me that REA has been blowing smoke up Stu's arse telling him that everything he says is wonderful and that all his great ideas would be able to be realised under community ownership. I am sure that there are quite a few genuine St Mirren fans suffering from the same levels of delusion, duped by their own enthusiasm. Its been a tactic of 10000 hrs to listen to fans woes about the club and turn them back to them as being realisable as fans will be able to have the club that they want; however the structure and process proposed never really allowed for that sort of revolution at the club.

The community blah, blah should really be a separate discussion on general discussion. The music club now defunct was funded through the street stuff programme. That runs in 3 month chunks at the mercy of the Local Area Committees nose in the trough types. I really like the street stuff programme. It ensures St Mirren presence in our communities and makes us high profile at events like the switch on / sma' shat day, etc. We now have Music Box, which is centrally funded...and as such has less of a local flavour to it, which I reckon explains in small part the lack of numbers. Hopefully the current summer event will have better numbers as the guys are decent teachers and the kids that are attending are enjoying it.

Sid Jnr attended some of the summer / spring events on the football side. He enjoyed them; however as Stu points out, when they are over, they are over. I actually think that he makes a very good point about linking the kids into local teams once the course is over. However, that is just a small bit of feedback for the club. Arguing for the club to be put at risk on a fanciful fan ownership venture on that alone is f"kwittery of the highest order. Get on the phone to Gary and he will take it all on board and might even look to get your ideas on it rather than greet down the phone to REA about how unfair it is and allow him to manipulate your frustrations with the club into £10-a-month for the next ten years.

If you want to get involved in the St Mirren community then volunteer. I would be shocked to my boots if you were turned away. Do we really need to take on £1.5Million worth of debt to get closer to the club? Nope....if it were to happen you would end up with a few nutters like Stu getting involved and then going in the huff when something didn't go their way. You will then be left with the hardcore nose in the troughers with a free hand to rip the arse right out of the club as happens with any democratically run bawbaggery...renfrewshire cnutcil being a prime example. Spike Milligan would boak at what is being proposed at SMFC.

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The thread appears to have gone wildly off track...where's tedious tom?

Stu makes some good points about the community side of St Mirren. However, it is hardly justification for handing control of the club over to an underfunded, underplanned scheme.....Stu's increasingly frustrated rants suggest to me that REA has been blowing smoke up Stu's arse telling him that everything he says is wonderful and that all his great ideas would be able to be realised under community ownership. I am sure that there are quite a few genuine St Mirren fans suffering from the same levels of delusion, duped by their own enthusiasm. Its been a tactic of 10000 hrs to listen to fans woes about the club and turn them back to them as being realisable as fans will be able to have the club that they want; however the structure and process proposed never really allowed for that sort of revolution at the club.

Do you honestly think that anyone would want to blow smoke up my arse, or that it would be possible Sid? Whilst I will back my idea's and principles to an extreme level I hardly think anyone would accuse me of doing the same for anyone who would seek to ally with me or get me on side. You've been around online for a long time Sid, I would have thought you would have known me better than that by now.

REA has had three telephone conversations with me - twice after I had been negative about the 10000hours bid - and once in response to an e-mail request I made of him for information about how you go about getting funding for an SEN to buy a plot of land for the football club. We've never met in person and although I have sat in the same room as him twice I've never had a personal conversation with the man.

I am frustrated, but it's more the sort of frustration anyone would feel when you can see the Titanic being steered directly at the iceberg at full speed, and no-one will listen to you when you are telling them to turn the wheel.

The community blah, blah should really be a separate discussion on general discussion. The music club now defunct was funded through the street stuff programme. That runs in 3 month chunks at the mercy of the Local Area Committees nose in the trough types. I really like the street stuff programme. It ensures St Mirren presence in our communities and makes us high profile at events like the switch on / sma' shat day, etc. We now have Music Box, which is centrally funded...and as such has less of a local flavour to it, which I reckon explains in small part the lack of numbers. Hopefully the current summer event will have better numbers as the guys are decent teachers and the kids that are attending are enjoying it.

Sid Jnr attended some of the summer / spring events on the football side. He enjoyed them; however as Stu points out, when they are over, they are over. I actually think that he makes a very good point about linking the kids into local teams once the course is over. However, that is just a small bit of feedback for the club. Arguing for the club to be put at risk on a fanciful fan ownership venture on that alone is f"kwittery of the highest order. Get on the phone to Gary and he will take it all on board and might even look to get your ideas on it rather than greet down the phone to REA about how unfair it is and allow him to manipulate your frustrations with the club into £10-a-month for the next ten years.

I didn't say the club should be linking into local teams once the course is over. I said that the club should collaborate with the local clubs, using their coaches to take the sessions. It works very well in athletics. It would save St Mirren a great deal of money, it would allow a local club to use the St Mirren brand, it would allow the revenue generated to be shared and it would forge a bond between the juvenile and the senior club that would offer far wider benefits. And for the child it would give them a very simple progression path from the fun group into organised football with them already knowing the coaches involved.

Again if you check back I have always maintained that regardless of the ownership model at the club the collaboration between juvenile clubs and the senior club should be a priority. There's no reason at all why the club couldn't have been doing this for the last 13 years. It's not a new idea, indeed back in our day Sid the club did have collaborations with local juvenile clubs it's just someone at the club f**ked it up.

I do believe that an SEN ownership model is the way forward for all Scottish Football clubs and I believe strongly that we'll see that more and more in the coming years whether that happens with 10000hours at St Mirren or not. But Sid I have to say that I don't think we are too far apart on the issue. The consortium have put the clubs future at risk by offering a majority shareholding in the football club....its just that whilst you would prefer to see the consortium members split, I think that it would be better for the long term development of the club and the community if ownership of the controlling interest of the club was split amongst a large number of members. I'd like to see the consortium do what Boyle has done at Motherwell and give away the shares to 10000hours thus ensuring the bid isn't under funded but I suppose unless administration happens that is very unlikely. I

If you want to get involved in the St Mirren community then volunteer. I would be shocked to my boots if you were turned away. Do we really need to take on £1.5Million worth of debt to get closer to the club? Nope....if it were to happen you would end up with a few nutters like Stu getting involved and then going in the huff when something didn't go their way. You will then be left with the hardcore nose in the troughers with a free hand to rip the arse right out of the club as happens with any democratically run bawbaggery...renfrewshire cnutcil being a prime example. Spike Milligan would boak at what is being proposed at SMFC.

Sid I have no interest at all in being involved in the St Mirren community. I've said it many times before but I enjoy what I do in the part of the world where I live. However I have always been open and available to share my opinion with anyone who wants to listen. :rolleyes:

.

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