US Based Bidder Revealed

[BLF]

I didn't sign up because the CiC fails my simplicity test.

I have a degree and am about to earn another.

I am far from lacking in brain cells (I'm also sexy but we'll talk about that another day).

Here's the deal though. I cannot penetrate the language and can't follow how it works in detail.

Now this is odd because the idea should have been very simple.

Business is very simple.

You make, someone buys, you make money.

Harvard MBA twattery is deliberately designed to confuse people and this proposal is full of it.

On that count, I'm out.

I'd be interested to know how many on here have actually fully understood it in complete detail.

Even Gilmour couldn't get his head around it.

Why has REA made it so complicated?

It reminds me of mobile phone, gas and electricity contracts - full of apparently unnecessary and complicated twattery but which turns out to be crucial to protecting the company by stopping you comparing with another firm.

I'm not pro- or anti- CiC. I just hate it when simple things are made complicated by people.

In my experience, it usually means something is being deliberately hidden.

I can't invest in that but I won't criticise others for doing so.

I have signed up because (at one point) it looked like it was going to happen and i would rather be part of it and try to make it work than to be on the outside sniping about it. I am not and have never been completely convinced it will work.

That said, I agree with much of what you've said Oaksoft, the model is far too complex and unclear. That is my biggest concern, complex structures, 99 times out of 100, tie themselves up in bureaucracy and infighting.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Everything should be taken with a pinch of salt. There's a lot of vested interests in 10000 hrs. Both are in fact being creative with the "facts" as some people know them. There aren't three tabled bids. My understanding is that there is still only one fishal bid on the table - the really shite one from 10000 hrs. Davidg's assetion that a current board member will stay on if the US bid is successful is only partly true. There will be a warm handover, which means that most if not all of the current BoD will be in play for a few months along with the new owners and their team.

The press release / leak has come primed with the usual dodgy "facts" intermingled with the ",but I'm prepared to see what is in the new bid" bollox. Make no mistake 10000 hrs are trying to force the hand of the selling consortium into accepting a bid that is underfunded. It's all shite, underhand political bollox and should be given no credence whatsoever.

10000 hrs should shut the f"k up and give the selling consortium the time and space to deliver the best future for St Mirren football club, its fans and the wider community. 10000 hrs is not the only show in town. However, the alternative bid is not the shady east european / craig whyte scenario that has been getting peddled by 10000 hrs to try and frighten fans into ignoring the lack of substance to their own bid.

Your way over complicating Sid the latest developement is very simple. Now SG and the sellers realise there MIGHT be more than 1 show in town they are trying to instigate a good old fashioned bidding war in an attempt to maximise their return. You appear not to be able to see the wood for the trees at the moment.

[Guest somner9]

I didn't sign up because the CiC fails my simplicity test.

I have a degree and am about to earn another.

I am far from lacking in brain cells (I'm also sexy but we'll talk about that another day).

Here's the deal though. I cannot penetrate the language and can't follow how it works in detail.

Now this is odd because the idea should have been very simple.

Business is very simple.

You make, someone buys, you make money.

Harvard MBA twattery is deliberately designed to confuse people and this proposal is full of it.

On that count, I'm out.

I'd be interested to know how many on here have actually fully understood it in complete detail.

Even Gilmour couldn't get his head around it.

Why has REA made it so complicated?

It reminds me of mobile phone, gas and electricity contracts - full of apparently unnecessary and complicated twattery but which turns out to be crucial to protecting the company by stopping you comparing with another firm.

I'm not pro- or anti- CiC. I just hate it when simple things are made complicated by people.

In my experience, it usually means something is being deliberately hidden.

I can't invest in that but I won't criticise others for doing so.

Good grief I actually agree with old cOaksoft

The issues that made me change my mind and instruct the bank to flame the DD mandate are the fact REA came on this forum to answer a question i put regarding third parties being 'Gifted' the revenue generating opportunities at the club, decisions that were taken without any involvement of the investors (fans), and decisions which would ensure SMFC receives NOTHING yes nothing from a members bar run on matchdays, in fact the CiC also receives nothing from this bar and whatever functions corporate events the bar owners set up.

Now as we are supposed to be in the business of exploting any/all opportunities to:

A - make money to invest in the club (facilities, playing budget, community coaching etc)

B - reduce the debt owed by the CiC, thereby being in a position sooner rather than later to (with member approval) divert surplaus funds to benefit SMFC

the decisons taken without and before any investors/members could scrutinise the wisdom and benefit of this gifting of revenue opportunities are completely at odds with all and any Co-operative values and principles. (note they don't refer to the cic as a co-op anymore)

REA was quite categoric only a few weeks hence on this forum in saying "The CiC would be in control of the members bar/revenue generating opportunities"

Then two weeks ago 10000 hours release an update to say they have just checked in with the bodies funding, running and profiting from the bar/function suite, KIBBLE and the LIFE CHURCH.

It's not very christian and last time i heard the bible didn't condone bare face lying to ones followers!

Now we have another serious of shameful leaks to the press to try and cajol the selling consortium into accepting 10000 hours bid before the growing apathy and cancelling of DD mandates (check 10000 website, cash figure steadily dropping) renders it redundant.

If 10000 hours are given the deal today, our club will suffer a painful debt-ravaged future as we have gifted money making opportunities to a couple of circling sharks, and we'll be lucky if we can catch onto Div 3 as we plummet past.

Why in gods name MR. Atkinson have you refused for two years to share your business plan with the only people left backing your bid?

What have you got to hide?

Why have decisions regarding real opportunities to generate much need funds for the club and CiC been made with absolutely no involvement of the investors (Thats st mirren fans, you know the people that actually fund the club and your bid)?

Why has there been absolutely no member/investor involvement in the people you have promised BoD positions to, who are investing nothing in the Cic or club, and indeed in one case are actually trying to use the Fan-funded bid to sell shares they had been left with?

No more death by powerpoint meetings, you are very unpopular, and unless you actually answer questions and involve people in the decisions you'll never be accepted and the dreaded apathy will drain finances from the Cic and OUR club.

Try spinning this as an endorsement of your flawed bid

[RickMcD]

I agree completely with Oaksoft about the whole 10.000 hours thing. I don't have a degree but I think I'm reasonably bright. Modestly, I won't pitch it any higher than that. Like Oaksoft I'm also sexy. But ignoring all that, I just haven't been able to get my head round this CIC/ Co-Op thing at all. A stand alone Co-Op is not a difficult concept to grasp but even the Co-Op model suggested here seems to be not the normal form of Co-Op. The community involvement is all very commendable and altruistic but my main interest is a healthy St.Mirren FC, both on the park and financially off it. If community funding aids that, then grab it but it doesn't appear to be available at a level that will be of significant aid to Saints.

Fan ownership would be terrific but only if it is completely financially viable. I don't think that what 10.000 hours are attempting is even close to financially viable unless the price was to come down to somewhere quite a bit under £1m. Proceeding on the basis of a wing and a prayer is nonsense as is basing future plans on potential but completely unknown income streams.

10,000 hours has been as far as i can see one of the most amateurish operations I have ever come across. No question the guys are very well intentioned but we know that's what the road to hell is lined with. And perish the thought that football fans ever get to run a football club. Owning it is one thing but leave the running of it to professionals which I'm afraid excludes 10.000 hours.

This American doesn't sound like the biz to me either but it's early days.

[Jeremiah Cole]

All things carefully considered I have came to the opinion that it would be fantastic if the fans managed to take control of our club. After all its the fans who care most about the club. The fans would ensure that we would have a long term secure future, most fans love the club and care passionately about the club. Who else could do a better job.

It would be like the lunatics taking over the asylum

People who don't trust the fans are the same types who didn't trust the Scots to take control of our own country and have our own Parliament, I think most people will agree that the devolved parliament in Edinburgh which is run by Scots for Scots has done more for Scotland than Westminster could have delivered over the same period.

Governments borrow huge amounts of money to deliver their promises then leave the mess for he next lot to sort out.

That is what will happen with fan based commitees running the club

[santaponsasaint]

More boring pish,

[saintargyll]

CO-Op Tesco ASDA (linwood)

and now K-MART

what is it with us that has all these supermarkets hovering around

[div]

I'm not pro- or anti- CiC. I just hate it when simple things are made complicated by people.

In my experience, it usually means something is being deliberately hidden.

I can't invest in that but I won't criticise others for doing so.

The confusion about the CIC hasn't been helped at all with three iterations but essentially it is simple enough;

• 10000Hours is a Membership based Community Interest Company (CIC)
  
• The CIC has bid to buy the majority shareholding of St.Mirren FC Ltd
  
• The CIC would own the majority shareholding of the football club, but the club remains the same limited company it is today
  
• By owning 52% of the shares in St.Mirren FC Ltd, the CIC would have control of the football club
  
• The bid that has been lodged is a seven figure sum, but less than the £1.5m previously bid
  
• A funder (BII) is lending £500k of the necessary money, repayable at 8% interest over total period of 8 years
  
• There are no penalties for early repayment of this loan
  
• There are 3 tiers of membership within the CIC each with different financial commitments (£10 per month, £3k one off, £25k one off)
  
• Different benefits assigned to each tier but all members equal in the organisation
  
• One member in the organisation gets one vote, regardless of financial commitment
  
• Interim football club board to be formed on day 1 - Gordon Scott as chairman, Tony Fitz as Vice, Richard Atkinson, Chris Stewart, Brian Caldwell
  
• Interim board will run the club until the members organisation is fully operational
  
• Football club board is voted on by the membership, members can stand for election/re-election
  
• After few months the members would formally elect the board of the football club
  
• Clubs assets will be "locked" - they cannot be sold without members approval
  
• Membership fees will be used to repay borrowing eg; Currently £11k a month of income, expected to grow post takeover
  
• Additional revenue generated for club and CIC through community fit out of "Void" space in the main stand
  
• Separate board will run the 10000Hours community interest company itself
  
• The CIC members will also be eligible to stand for positions on that board
  
• The CIC will look to use St.Mirren name and brand to further grow revenues for the business, also helping to repay borrowing
  
• The CIC will work in partnership with local organisations to benefit the local community and it's population
  

That's it in a nutshell.

[Drew]

I agree completely with Oaksoft about the whole 10.000 hours thing. I don't have a degree but I think I'm reasonably bright. Modestly, I won't pitch it any higher than that. Like Oaksoft I'm also sexy. But ignoring all that, I just haven't been able to get my head round this CIC/ Co-Op thing at all. A stand alone Co-Op is not a difficult concept to grasp but even the Co-Op model suggested here seems to be not the normal form of Co-Op. The community involvement is all very commendable and altruistic but my main interest is a healthy St.Mirren FC, both on the park and financially off it. If community funding aids that, then grab it but it doesn't appear to be available at a level that will be of significant aid to Saints.

Fan ownership would be terrific but only if it is completely financially viable. I don't think that what 10.000 hours are attempting is even close to financially viable unless the price was to come down to somewhere quite a bit under £1m. Proceeding on the basis of a wing and a prayer is nonsense as is basing future plans on potential but completely unknown income streams.

10,000 hours has been as far as i can see one of the most amateurish operations I have ever come across. No question the guys are very well intentioned but we know that's what the road to hell is lined with. And perish the thought that football fans ever get to run a football club. Owning it is one thing but leave the running of it to professionals which I'm afraid excludes 10.000 hours.

This American doesn't sound like the biz to me either but it's early days.

Good post.

I agree with most of what you say. One thing I would query, though, is what consititutes a 'professional' running a football club?

Were Stewart Gilmour, George Campbell et al professional football people? I'm pretty sure they had other business interests and expertise prior to taking over the principle responsibility for running the club. Indeed, what is a 'professional' football person? What makes them more professional than, say, Gordon Scott or Tony Fitzpatrick for that matter?

I suspect you're talking about appropriately experienced and skilled business-minded people. I suspect a significant number of those signed up to 10000Hours have a pretty sound business background, and could bring a great deal to the table. As could others from different walks of life.

For me, the issue is not so much that the people involved in the CiC wouldn't be able to manage the responsiblity of running the club, it is the systems, structures, and co-ordination - or lack thereof - that concern me.

Many clubs have been run on the seat of the pants model, including our own at times. I'm not convinced that the 'professional' argument cuts it, TBH.

[Guest somner9]

The confusion about the CIC hasn't been helped at all with three iterations but essentially it is simple enough;

• 10000Hours is a Membership based Community Interest Company (CIC)
  
• The CIC has bid to buy the majority shareholding of St.Mirren FC Ltd
  
• The CIC would own the majority shareholding of the football club, but the club remains the same limited company it is today
  
• By owning 52% of the shares in St.Mirren FC Ltd, the CIC would have control of the football club
  
• The bid that has been lodged is a seven figure sum, but less than the £1.5m previously bid
  
• A funder (BII) is lending £500k of the necessary money, repayable at 8% interest over total period of 8 years
  
• There are no penalties for early repayment of this loan
  
• There are 3 tiers of membership within the CIC each with different financial commitments (£10 per month, £3k one off, £25k one off)
  
• Different benefits assigned to each tier but all members equal in the organisation
  
• One member in the organisation gets one vote, regardless of financial commitment
  
• Interim football club board to be formed on day 1 - Gordon Scott as chairman, Tony Fitz as Vice, Richard Atkinson, Chris Stewart, Brian Caldwell
  
• Interim board will run the club until the members organisation is fully operational
  
• Football club board is voted on by the membership, members can stand for election/re-election
  
• After few months the members would formally elect the board of the football club
  
• Clubs assets will be "locked" - they cannot be sold without members approval
  
• Membership fees will be used to repay borrowing eg; Currently £11k a month of income, expected to grow post takeover
  
• Additional revenue generated for club and CIC through community fit out of "Void" space in the main stand
  
• Separate board will run the 10000Hours community interest company itself
  
• The CIC members will also be eligible to stand for positions on that board
  
• The CIC will look to use St.Mirren name and brand to further grow revenues for the business, also helping to repay borrowing
  
• The CIC will work in partnership with local organisations to benefit the local community and it's population
  

That's it in a nutshell.

On the four I've highlighted from the top

1 - The membership fees are dropping, not growing

2- 10000 hours have been at pains to give no indication of any likely "additional revenue" being made avaibale to the club or the Cic from the Void! in fact they have made it clear that NO matchday revenue is at this time likely to benefit either the club or the Cic

3- there they go with the complication/messed up structure of multiple boards

4 - the CiC, kibble, the life church are all looking to use the ST Mirren brand to grow revenue and business, But they have not given ONE indication of what they will return to the Brand SMFC after exploiting it for their own ends. What does SMFC get out of this deal? REA still hasn't given any figures, is that because there is no perceived benefit to SMFC?

[BLF]

Thats all well understood div, but where the confusion will come in is that you have 3 or 4 boards, CIC board, Club Board, Exec Board and Interim Board. you have 3 different membership tiers, you have the 48% - some of whom will also be members of the CIC and potentially on one of the boards. You will have overlap on who can vote on certain issues and who cant, on who is responsible for what parts of the CIC and the club, you may have a conflict of interest if someone is on both club and cic boards.

[Stuart Dickson]

Is it any wonder there was a slow information release on the 10000hours proposal where information was dripped out? As I've always said St Mirren fans were always going to be too stupid to handle this. Over at Motherwell on the other hand they are just getting on with it, making progress and putting their team at the top of the league. At Clyde it just works. They've got on with reducing debt and will be debt free despite their Third Division status in the next 18 months. They've got challenges regarding their home venue which NLC have rented out to Cumbernauld Colts but despite that Clyde sit 2nd in Division Three ahead of their richer and more power neighbours - Rangers - and Clyde's board came out of the whole Newco Rangers fiasco over the summer with a huge amount of respect and credibility after the way they handled themselves both in the boardrooms and in the media.

Football club boardrooms and committees are the same the world over. Full of precious and delicate egos and people promoting and looking after their own interests. At least the CIC model makes those serving on these committees accountable to the membership. An individual owning 52% of shares is accountable to no-one.

[Jeremiah Cole]

More boring pish,

Don't be so harsh on yourself

[Kendo]

It's time to stop all the nitpicking and get behind the idea of supporters have a say on how our club is run.

Our supporters are up for it lets hope the 10000 hours bid gets the thumbs up and our club is handed over to the people who really matter the fans.

[Jeremiah Cole]

At least the CIC model makes those serving on these committees accountable to the membership. An individual owning 52% of shares is accountable to no-one.

On the flip side, those serving on committees only have a small share in the total investment at risk whereas an individual owning 52% has his entire investment at risk.

[Jeremiah Cole]

It's time to stop all the nitpicking and get behind the idea of supporters have a say on how our club is run.

They already do. The club is currently owned by shareholders who in turn are mainly all St. Mirren supporters.

Our supporters are up for it lets hope the 10000 hours bid gets the thumbs up and our club is handed over to the people who really matter the fans.

Lunatics taking over the asylum

[Kendo]

They already do. The club is currently owned by shareholders who in turn are mainly all St. Mirren supporters.

Lunatics taking over the asylum

Last I heard you no longer support the club, what are you doing on here?

[Guest somner9]

It's time to stop all the nitpicking and get behind the idea of supporters have a say on how our club is run.

Our supporters are up for it lets hope the 10000 hours bid gets the thumbs up and our club is handed over to the people who really matter the fans.

Not this bid Mr Kendo, it will ruin our club at a time when on the field things are looking better than they have for few years. The club will be all the better if 10000 hours PUFO!

[class of 76-77]

Not this bid Mr Kendo, it will ruin our club at a time when on the field things are looking better than they have for few years. The club will be all the better if 10000 hours PUFO!

For christ sake Somner 9 don't even attempt to explain or expand on your post, and don't anyone encourage him to do so or my f**ken head will explode.

[Kendo]

Not this bid Mr Kendo, it will ruin our club at a time when on the field things are looking better than they have for few years. The club will be all the better if 10000 hours PUFO!

Without going into a long winded debate, I believe it is not perfect but it would be a good start. The fact that our fans would have a considerable say in how the club is run has got to be a good thing IMO. It is the only fan ownership deal on the table, if we turn it down we may never get another chance at it. If we use this as a first step I believe we can then shape this into something great.

As I said its not perfect but it is the only deal where the fans will have their say. To good an opportunity to miss IMO.

[Hambud]

Or was it Miles Brookson ?

That one always got me

[Kendo]

For christ sake Somner 9 don't even attempt to explain or expand on your post, and don't anyone encourage him to do so or my f**ken head will explode.

Boom f**ken Boom

[Guest somner9]

Without going into a long winded debate, I believe it is not perfect but it would be a good start. The fact that our fans would have a considerable say in how the club is run has got to be a good thing IMO. It is the only fan ownership deal on the table, if we turn it down we may never get another chance at it. If we use this as a first step I believe we can then shape this into something great.

As I said its not perfect but it is the only deal where the fans will have their say. To good an opportunity to miss IMO.

I don't for one minute doubt what the fans can bring to the party. But MR Kendo consider this, 10000 hours have cocked up, lost funders, backers, members, credibility and told various untruths/scaremongering at every turn.... Do you really think they can all of a sudden 'Come Good'?

What in the way they have behaved, and what they have failed to deliver up to and including this moment honestly makes you believe THEY will be successful? after all they've ensured they have complete control over all decisions for months/years to come!

[oaksoft]

Is it any wonder there was a slow information release on the 10000hours proposal where information was dripped out? As I've always said St Mirren fans were always going to be too stupid to handle this. Over at Motherwell on the other hand they are just getting on with it, making progress and putting their team at the top of the league. At Clyde it just works. They've got on with reducing debt and will be debt free despite their Third Division status in the next 18 months. They've got challenges regarding their home venue which NLC have rented out to Cumbernauld Colts but despite that Clyde sit 2nd in Division Three ahead of their richer and more power neighbours - Rangers - and Clyde's board came out of the whole Newco Rangers fiasco over the summer with a huge amount of respect and credibility after the way they handled themselves both in the boardrooms and in the media.

Football club boardrooms and committees are the same the world over. Full of precious and delicate egos and people promoting and looking after their own interests. At least the CIC model makes those serving on these committees accountable to the membership. An individual owning 52% of shares is accountable to no-one.

Talking of stupd, it's interesting how you think St Mirren would be best run by those closest to it (i.e. the fans) rather than run remotely by an uninterested party and yet you think the complete opposite when it comes to Scotland being run by a foreign country's Tory toffs who probably have never visited Scotland other than weekend helicopter trips to House of Bruar and Gleneagles golf course. Strange one that but then we're coming to expect that from our favourite troll.

[RickMcD]

Is it any wonder there was a slow information release on the 10000hours proposal where information was dripped out? As I've always said St Mirren fans were always going to be too stupid to handle this. Over at Motherwell on the other hand they are just getting on with it, making progress and putting their team at the top of the league. At Clyde it just works. They've got on with reducing debt and will be debt free despite their Third Division status in the next 18 months. They've got challenges regarding their home venue which NLC have rented out to Cumbernauld Colts but despite that Clyde sit 2nd in Division Three ahead of their richer and more power neighbours - Rangers - and Clyde's board came out of the whole Newco Rangers fiasco over the summer with a huge amount of respect and credibility after the way they handled themselves both in the boardrooms and in the media.

Football club boardrooms and committees are the same the world over. Full of precious and delicate egos and people promoting and looking after their own interests. At least the CIC model makes those serving on these committees accountable to the membership. An individual owning 52% of shares is accountable to no-one.

I'm not opposed to fan ownership but I have certain reservations. I imagine that a lot of our supporters feel exactly the same. But remind me how much debt the new Motherwell 'owners' have been saddled with. Was it around the £1m. mark? Are Motherwell fans contributing around £11,000 per month? I don't for a second think St.Mirren fans are too stupid to grasp the huge advantages of fan ownership but are you really saying they have turned it down? They've clearly indicated that they are not going to be sold a pup.

What has put me off is the complete ineptitude shown by 10,000 hours from day one. When CIC Mark 1 was first mooted it would have been binned immediately if the level of debt now apparently confronting the fans had been considered necessary. I believe a lot of fans are pro fan ownership but they are not convinced of the viability of what is being presented to them.