Soctty Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 That's well below the minimum wage so surely can't be true? Minimum wage is worked out hourly, and is currently £4.98 per hour for his age group. I'd say he probably works about 15 hours a week, with another couple on a match day. 17 hours at £4.98 is £84.66. And as BTB says, if he's on a training contract the hourly rate is even lower. I'm sure we all knew we wouldn't be paying our players below the minimum wage though, didn't we??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I have answers to neither of these questions but having a 16-y-o child I happened to know the hourly rate for apprenticeships these days and threw it into the gumbo as the reason Saints could pay what some people (including yourself) were suggesting was below the NMW. It's £2.65 until the 1st of October, when it goes up to £2.68. Didn't want to be pedantic....can't help it...it's an illness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windae cleaner Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Suppose Baird did bite us on the arse but he's never went on to greater things than us, relegated last season and has signed for Thistle this season. He bloomed into a decent first division striker but i think that shows how poor the First Division is rather than him being a good player. I hope they do well McGinn was superb for Dumbarton going by the fans, got to respect him for wanting to play every week. Think Smith could do with another year of development with us, maybe we could have loaned him out for a few months. Some might even have part time jobs too, I know some youth players in the past did. Youth players,try first team squad players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I just don't see what students income has to do with the price of a loaf. Football is a crazy business which pays OTT wages and if St.Mirren want to stay in the top tier then they have no choice but to pay higher wages than they might want to. The usual suspects are piling in here. You know the guys who want our club reduced to a kind of glorious junior club paying a few hundred pounds a week to the first team pool. Thankfully the current board has a lot more ambition than that. I just can't see the problem in 18yr/old boys who the club genuinely believe have real promise being paid on an increasing scale to keep them at the club. If one of these lads gives us a few good seasons and then moves on for a couple of hundred thousand, we're quids in. Letting them go because they ask for another hundred a week could be false economy. If we have faith in our own youth development, I don't see it as a big risk. English clubs and the arseholes just up the road show no sign of cutting back on their spending. Surely at this point in time we are in better financial shape than we've ever been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSS Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I'm trying to picture myself today earning £100.00 a week. Can you actually survive on that assuming the boy has to pay dig money and traveling ezpenses. Then as normal 18 year old you have socialising and cloths to consider. So looking at the bigger picture it seems to me Saints were not bothered one way or another if he signed so would have a feeling of I'm not wanted here. £100.00 is shocking to be honest.If he struggles to get by on £100 a week pocket money then he has a problem.If he needs more then what about a 2nd job?He's got plenty spare time to fit one in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambud Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I just don't see what students income has to do with the price of a loaf. Football is a crazy business which pays OTT wages and if St.Mirren want to stay in the top tier then they have no choice but to pay higher wages than they might want to. The usual suspects are piling in here. You know the guys who want our club reduced to a kind of glorious junior club paying a few hundred pounds a week to the first team pool. Thankfully the current board has a lot more ambition than that. I just can't see the problem in 18yr/old boys who the club genuinely believe have real promise being paid on an increasing scale to keep them at the club. If one of these lads gives us a few good seasons and then moves on for a couple of hundred thousand, we're quids in. Letting them go because they ask for another hundred a week could be false economy. If we have faith in our own youth development, I don't see it as a big risk. English clubs and the arseholes just up the road show no sign of cutting back on their spending. Surely at this point in time we are in better financial shape than we've ever been.most saints fans would rather see their club alive in any league than pay "crazy money" for an 18 year old who believes they are worth more than the club is prepared to pay. I'm with the club here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I'm trying to picture myself today earning £100.00 a week. Can you actually survive on that assuming the boy has to pay dig money and traveling ezpenses. Then as normal 18 year old you have socialising and cloths to consider. So looking at the bigger picture it seems to me Saints were not bothered one way or another if he signed so would have a feeling of I'm not wanted here. £100.00 is shocking to be honest. £100 for 15 hours work is fine. He can easily supplement that with 25 hours part time work like most adults. The idea that an 18 year old with no real 1st team experience should be able to earn enough to live on from just 15 hours of work is frankly laughable. Maybe Jack, like most 18 year olds is unaware of the countless thousands of other footballing starlets who have no contracts at the moment with any club. The world tends to be harsh on the deluded and the bone idle. Maybe the lad will have many many football free years to look back and regret his decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I just don't see what students income has to do with the price of a loaf. Football is a crazy business which pays OTT wages and if St.Mirren want to stay in the top tier then they have no choice but to pay higher wages than they might want to. The usual suspects are piling in here. You know the guys who want our club reduced to a kind of glorious junior club paying a few hundred pounds a week to the first team pool. Thankfully the current board has a lot more ambition than that. I just can't see the problem in 18yr/old boys who the club genuinely believe have real promise being paid on an increasing scale to keep them at the club. If one of these lads gives us a few good seasons and then moves on for a couple of hundred thousand, we're quids in. Letting them go because they ask for another hundred a week could be false economy. If we have faith in our own youth development, I don't see it as a big risk. English clubs and the arseholes just up the road show no sign of cutting back on their spending. Surely at this point in time we are in better financial shape than we've ever been. Aye and maybe that's BECAUSE we don't overpay underachievers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Well, Hambud, who made you the fans' spokesman. You settle for Ist. or 2nd. Division if you like. I suspect a fair number of fans have a bit more ambition than that. Oaky, shame to hear young Jack has been written off as an under-achiever. But you know best. Time and again on this forum you have tried to pass yourself off as a latter day Isaac Newton or an Einstein or even Aristotle. But know what? I think that all three of these august gentlemen, and you, would make an absolute **** of running a football club. There is no logic in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Smith should have been made a decent offer , the list of players who will come back and bite us on the arse is growing ! Some crystal ball, gies 6 numbers for the lottery will ye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambud Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Well, Hambud, who made you the fans' spokesman. You settle for Ist. or 2nd. Division if you like. I suspect a fair number of fans have a bit more ambition than that. Oaky, shame to hear young Jack has been written off as an under-achiever. But you know best. Time and again on this forum you have tried to pass yourself off as a latter day Isaac Newton or an Einstein or even Aristotle. But know what? I think that all three of these august gentlemen, and you, would make an absolute **** of running a football club. There is no logic in it. absolutely no-one made me the fans spokesman, I have offered an opinion, i'm basing my opinion on what I've read on here and on official site when fans have been discussing how well our club is run compared to, rangers, hearts, killie, dunfermline. Would you rather our Chairman took similar approaches to theirs and gambled with the clubs future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestreet Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 At 18 money shouldn't even come into it It's all about AMBITION! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djchapsticks Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I wish I had £100 a week at 18 to do with as I pleased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 At 18 money shouldn't even come into it It's all about AMBITION! Quite right, even at 28 for a footballer it should be about ambition and wanting to win medals. I'll assume the £120 a week is basic and that there would be bonuses for being on the bench and more bonuses for actually playing in a first team game. If any 18 year old isn't happy with their basic pay there's an easy way to increase it - show some ambition, improve their game and break into the first team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Well, Hambud, who made you the fans' spokesman. You settle for Ist. or 2nd. Division if you like. I suspect a fair number of fans have a bit more ambition than that. Oaky, shame to hear young Jack has been written off as an under-achiever. He's 18 years old. That is no longer childhood. If he is a serious contender for having a really good future as a footballing star he should already be knocking on the door of the 1st team. The fact that he isn't speaks volumes. So yes - because he isn't challenging for the 1st team despite being 18 he's underachieving. ....and despite this he still thinks he's worth more than £100 a week? The boy needs to take a look at himself before his career disappears as fast as the 99% of all footballers who simply don't make the grade. All over the world there are boys of 15 and 16 who are already established 1st team players. These players are hungrier, more driven and work harder than Jack and are successful as a result. Hamilton and Falkirk have a history of producing them in this country alone and now Livingston are doing it. Jack the lad however is barely even warming his arse on the bench despite being a full 2-3 years older. In other sports, kids in swimming and a range of other sports dominate medal tables between the ages of 14 and 18 competing with fully grown adults. FFS Andy Murray was beating some of the best players in the world at the age of 17. We've got to stop making excuses for people that age who are not challenging already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 absolutely no-one made me the fans spokesman, I have offered an opinion, i'm basing my opinion on what I've read on here and on official site when fans have been discussing how well our club is run compared to, rangers, hearts, killie, dunfermline. Would you rather our Chairman took similar approaches to theirs and gambled with the clubs future? Hambud, on 11 Jun 2013 - 18:47%2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryanflansmfc Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Out of all the youth guys we have released/lost has anyone came back to haunt us? Nobody has went on to bigger clubs than StMirren. Remember the uproar when we released McCay,Mckenna,Baird,Molloy and even McShane last season. Normally they trickle their way down the leagues and you never hear of them again. The big thing I didn't get about most of them being released is that we replace them with no-hopers like sam Parkin replacing mcshane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 He's 18 years old. That is no longer childhood. If he is a serious contender for having a really good future as a footballing star he should already be knocking on the door of the 1st team. The fact that he isn't speaks volumes. So yes - because he isn't challenging for the 1st team despite being 18 he's underachieving. ....and despite this he still thinks he's worth more than £100 a week? The boy needs to take a look at himself before his career disappears as fast as the 99% of all footballers who simply don't make the grade. All over the world there are boys of 15 and 16 who are already established 1st team players. These players are hungrier, more driven and work harder than Jack and are successful as a result. Hamilton and Falkirk have a history of producing them in this country alone and now Livingston are doing it. Jack the lad however is barely even warming his arse on the bench despite being a full 2-3 years older. In other sports, kids in swimming and a range of other sports dominate medal tables between the ages of 14 and 18 competing with fully grown adults. FFS Andy Murray was beating some of the best players in the world at the age of 17. We've got to stop making excuses for people that age who are not challenging already. I actually disagree quite strongly about eighteen year olds being on the scrapheap if they're not sitting on the bench by that age. If I can quote an example from my era to demonstrate it, how about Jack Copland? His first spell at Love Street was when he was twenty but he didn't make it and was soon at Beith Juniors. At the ripe old age of 22 he went to Stranraer and the following year it was Dundee United. Jack managed a pretty useful career for an 18yr old under-achiever. Lex Richardson wasn't too bad either. Plucked from the obscurity of a place called Borrheid or some such by St.Mirren when he was dead old. 21. He wasnae too bad either. I don't think things have changed all that much. Some lads mature into good professionals. I'm not suggesting that all St.Mirren's 18yr old youths should automatically get on some kind of incremental scale. We're talking not just about Jack Smith now. Let's just make sure without doubt that they will never make it before we brand them under-achievers and let's not lose a good-un for a miserable £100pw. Ugly ducks do sometimes turn into beautiful swans indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud77 Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 I actually disagree quite strongly about eighteen year olds being on the scrapheap if they're not sitting on the bench by that age. If I can quote an example from my era to demonstrate it, how about Jack Copland? His first spell at Love Street was when he was twenty but he didn't make it and was soon at Beith Juniors. At the ripe old age of 22 he went to Stranraer and the following year it was Dundee United. Jack managed a pretty useful career for an 18yr old under-achiever. Lex Richardson wasn't too bad either. Plucked from the obscurity of a place called Borrheid or some such by St.Mirren when he was dead old. 21. He wasnae too bad either. I don't think things have changed all that much. Some lads mature into good professionals. I'm not suggesting that all St.Mirren's 18yr old youths should automatically get on some kind of incremental scale. We're talking not just about Jack Smith now. Let's just make sure without doubt that they will never make it before we brand them under-achievers and let's not lose a good-un for a miserable £100pw. Ugly ducks do sometimes turn into beautiful swans indeed. The problem with that is that once a player reaches 21, he's too old for the under 20's and there's no reserve league. A decision has to be made at some point and surely it's better all round if a player is released and goes to a lower league in order to play games than train for a few hours a day but never actually play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 The problem with that is that once a player reaches 21, he's too old for the under 20's and there's no reserve league. A decision has to be made at some point and surely it's better all round if a player is released and goes to a lower league in order to play games than train for a few hours a day but never actually play. Having no reserve league is a problem undoubtedly. I realise that the cost of a reserve team is prohibitive. My point remains though, that discarding all boys of 18 who haven't played in the first team and writing them off as useless seems a bit tough. Maybe an example of premature dematriculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 Could all the drama queens wring out their knickers and replace with a clean pair please. How many days until the football starts again??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovestreet Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 The next two weeks we will see it all taking shape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrez Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 The last prospect we had that left (and off his own accord) that turned out to play at a reasonable level was Iwelumo who's now 34 - thats a long time of good decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) I actually disagree quite strongly about eighteen year olds being on the scrapheap if they're not sitting on the bench by that age. If I can quote an example from my era to demonstrate it, how about Jack Copland? His first spell at Love Street was when he was twenty but he didn't make it and was soon at Beith Juniors. At the ripe old age of 22 he went to Stranraer and the following year it was Dundee United. Jack managed a pretty useful career for an 18yr old under-achiever. Lex Richardson wasn't too bad either. Plucked from the obscurity of a place called Borrheid or some such by St.Mirren when he was dead old. 21. He wasnae too bad either. I don't think things have changed all that much. Some lads mature into good professionals. I'm not suggesting that all St.Mirren's 18yr old youths should automatically get on some kind of incremental scale. We're talking not just about Jack Smith now. Let's just make sure without doubt that they will never make it before we brand them under-achievers and let's not lose a good-un for a miserable £100pw. Ugly ducks do sometimes turn into beautiful swans indeed. All kids get one free pass in life in this country - for example a free shot at education or maybe in a good footballers case, a one year contract or something. If they make the grade then riches and a decent life are there for them. If they fail then they have to make other arrangements - maybe even have another go at school when they are older. That's life. I'm not saying Smith can't turn it around. I'm also not saying that he should be on the scrapheap. Under achiever is his current status not a permanent label and there's really not much doubt about that IMO. All I'm saying is that he now needs to find his level and Saints can't afford to pay him while he decides to do so. If he is the starlet he's been portrayed as, then he'll have no probs picking up a club. At 18, the ball needs to be in his court now as it was with Copland. Alex Ferguson always said that if a player hadn't made it at 21 they would never make it. Harsh but fair. Copland is proof of what happens when young people see their lives fall away from them but learn to fight back. Maybe Jack can do that but he'll need to do it elsewhere. I don't think we can afford to carry people who are not 1st team challengers by the time they get to 18 - we're just too small a club to do that at SPL level. So, in summary, I don't think he is currently worth a contract at all never mind the offer he was given purely because he's not knocking on the 1st team door. And secondly, no non 1st team player should be on more than £100 a week. It's madness. ETA: This is the young man who was fined by the club for refusing to help out at the dome with the others. Like I said before, there's an entitlement attitude problem in this particular generation which is very destructive. http://www.scotzine.com/2013/04/st-mirren-alleged-to-have-used-youth-players-as-construction-labourers/ Edited June 12, 2013 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 The big thing I didn't get about most of them being released is that we replace them with no-hopers like sam Parkin replacing mcshane. Parkin played quite a few matches though and clearly fell into the defnition of knocking on the 1st team door. McShane was not in that category despite being 21 (?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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