Safe Standing

[linwood buddie]

Think you misread my previous comment. Thankfully I was not there that fateful day. I had been there before the disaster as an away supporter and went back after it had been "re-developed" - I'd have rather seen the whole stand demolished as some of the passageways in the lower tier are very narrow.

An excellent book on the subject is http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hillsborough-Truth-Professor-Phil-Scraton/dp/1845964950 - I originally bought this in 1999 and got the most recent update on my Kindle.

It's a tough read emotionally but recommended. Anyone who attended football in the 60s, 70's and 80's with large crowds in standing zones can relate to what went on that day.

Yes sorry mate , just me being lazy and not reading posts fully.

You like me would have stood on the old Love Street terracing ,I started going in the 70's with my dad and his friends .

[pozbaird]

I went to St James Park for a game v Liverpool back in the days when there were fences and pens to keep fans in. It was the enclosure under the old main stand. The length of the field - but split up into individual pens just like Hillsborough. The 'vomitories' leading to the pens were dark and narrow. We were packed in like sardines, surrounded by high fences. It was pouring rain and at the end, as the crowd dispersed, we had been packed in so tightly that only our head and shoulders had actually got wet.

Thinking back, it is frightening. Liverpool won 2-0. If Newcastle had scored and the home pens had become exciteable, goodness only knows how bad it would have been. I was a young man then - fit and healthy. How it must have been for older fans or kids, shorter people, women, someone with a disability? Scary, scary stuff.

[pik]

Been a big supporter of safe standing for years - would be incredibly popular I think.

Would be good if the club could at least get it costed to see how much it would be, perhaps you could do it in phases.

I'm sure fans would rally round to meet some of the costs too - one for SMISA?

And which bit of the stadium? I'd say behind the goals and move the family section to main stand.

[BuddieinEK]

Prices are the main factor without a doubt.

I have no problem with standing areas, and believe they may well improve the atmosphere... but for me, I cannot get past the fact that designated reserved seating forces people to sit where they are told and stops the natural gathering of "choirs".

Unreserved seating areas would be a big step towards improving the atmosphere... but somehow, people are more precious over their particular seat than improving the atmosphere for all.

Make season tickets non seat-specific. Have a few areas for designated seats if you must. Encourage folks to get there early and keep seats for there mates.

Choirs will naturally gather and the atmosphere will improve.

It really is that simple!

[Thorizaar]

Prices are the main factor without a doubt.

I have no problem with standing areas, and believe they may well improve the atmosphere... but for me, I cannot get past the fact that designated reserved seating forces people to sit where they are told and stops the natural gathering of "choirs".

Unreserved seating areas would be a big step towards improving the atmosphere... but somehow, people are more precious over their particular seat than improving the atmosphere for all.

Make season tickets non seat-specific. Have a few areas for designated seats if you must. Encourage folks to get there early and keep seats for there mates.

Choirs will naturally gather and the atmosphere will improve.

It really is that simple!

There are thousands of empty seats every week, including almost entire sections. There is already plenty opportunity for choirs to naturally form without turfing people out their chosen seat.

People seem to be able to make plenty of noise abusing the team while sitting down. Never understood the need to be standing to make positive noise.

[Tam M]

I hope the Police arrest the Killie fans involved.

Well the culprits were boasting about it on P&B thread I believe.

As for safe standing, it doesn't really bother me either way. Atmosphere is what you make it, and after we left the North Bank everyone was spread out all over the place. Thistle have the right idea, as they have an unallocated seats section and apparently the atmosphere is good.

[rabuddies]

Just a few points on this:

1. The stadium was designed for seating not for standing. SG was correct when he stated that you just can't take seats out and put standing areas in - it would require some serious modifications.
2. I doubt any local authority (or police authority for that matter) would be willing to bite the bullet and approve safe standing areas. For a start, define "safe"? Any risk assessment would firmly come down on the side of the status quo (ie sit on your arses 'cos it's safer!). Even if they did my guess is they would cut the capacity to around 5,000 at SMP.
3. Insurance costs. Given the modern propensity for litigation, public liability insurance is becoming prohibitive for a sole trader, never mind a club with the potential for say 1,000 standing fans.

I'm lucky, I had years of standing on the terracing with 8,000 fans in the ground and I loved every minute of it. But that was 8,000 fans in a ground that could hold 49,000. Frankly, SMP is too small for standing. Sad, but there you go. All things must pass.

[Stuart Dickson]

If you are talking about the lack of noise at matches it's allocated seats that are the problem - that and the distance between opposition fans. It's got absolutely f**k all to do with whether people are standing or sitting.

Think back to the 80's. The reason fans nostalgically remember a noise at matches was because the majority of fans of both sides would huddle into the only covered section of the ground, fans of one side on one side of a fence and the other on the other side with barely 10 yards between them. If you were sitting in the main stand at Love Street, or worse standing out in the wide open away end you'd still hear the players shouting and talking to each other and the so called "atmosphere" was as flat as anything.

[flyingscot]

Just a few points on this:

1. The stadium was designed for seating not for standing. SG was correct when he stated that you just can't take seats out and put standing areas in - it would require some serious modifications.
2. I doubt any local authority (or police authority for that matter) would be willing to bite the bullet and approve safe standing areas. For a start, define "safe"? Any risk assessment would firmly come down on the side of the status quo (ie sit on your arses 'cos it's safer!). Even if they did my guess is they would cut the capacity to around 5,000 at SMP.
3. Insurance costs. Given the modern propensity for litigation, public liability insurance is becoming prohibitive for a sole trader, never mind a club with the potential for say 1,000 standing fans.

I'm lucky, I had years of standing on the terracing with 8,000 fans in the ground and I loved every minute of it. But that was 8,000 fans in a ground that could hold 49,000. Frankly, SMP is too small for standing. Sad, but there you go. All things must pass.

I'm curious as to what makes our stadium unsuitable for replacement of seats with rail seats? On the other 2 I can't see those being an issue. Other grounds in the UK have standing areas (and some new ones)- mainly in rugby it has to be said, so any LA would have to answer why it is OK in one part of the country and not another. Insurance again I can't see being prohibitive a problem.

I can tell you that anyone wanting unreserved seating at St Mirren games that it wasn't a great system at busy games at Firhill for rugby. Glasgow Rugby moved to allocated seating for all stands with non-seated standing areas at pitchside when they changed stadium, which was for the better in all honesty. Equally if you are in the west stand most games you can move to W6/7 which is empty and sit there with whoever.

[BuddieinEK]

 

I'm curious as to what makes our stadium unsuitable for replacement of seats with rail seats? On the other 2 I can't see those being an issue. Other grounds in the UK have standing areas (and some new ones)- mainly in rugby it has to be said, so any LA would have to answer why it is OK in one part of the country and not another. Insurance again I can't see being prohibitive a problem. 

 

I can tell you that anyone wanting unreserved seating at St Mirren games that it wasn't a great system at busy games at Firhill for rugby. Glasgow Rugby moved to allocated seating for all stands with non-seated standing areas at pitchside when they changed stadium, which was for the better in all honesty. Equally if you are in the west stand most games you can move to W6/7 which is empty and sit there with whoever.  

Interesting. .. it worked fine for the 8, 500 crowd at the same stadium for the Thistle v Dundee United match I attended.

A while back now. . But the Falkirk v Saints match at their pad when we filled their stand was also unallocated.

Brilliant atmosphere.... no trouble... no injuries.

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

There are thousands of empty seats every week, including almost entire sections. There is already plenty opportunity for choirs to naturally form without turfing people out their chosen seat.

People seem to be able to make plenty of noise abusing the team while sitting down. Never understood the need to be standing to make positive noise.

Choirs at Love St have always congregated opposite the center line.

[Guest somner9]

by all means have a standing area, but if it involves extra cost - forget it, use any money we get to bring in much needed players, then think about standing areas, i'm a bit too long in the tooth for standing up for 90 minutes but i can see that a standing area would allow the younger fans to be all in one place therefore creating more noise/chanting, i wonder if non allocated seating in w6 might have the same effect ?

Got a tasty email from Big Gilmourzo about this exact topic, his words were.... 'Sit Tight'

[flyingscot]

Interesting. .. it worked fine for the 8, 500 crowd at the same stadium for the Thistle v Dundee United match I attended.

A while back now. . But the Falkirk v Saints match at their pad when we filled their stand was also unallocated.

Brilliant atmosphere.... no trouble... no injuries.

Fair enough, I think it would work better at St Mirren than at Firhill, as at Saints you walk out and can see from the front all the seats taken and walk along to other areas which you can't do as easily at Firhill as you come out to the middle section and have to go back into the stand to get to another section.

Equally interesting they let the numbers get to that level was that pay at the gate or at the ticket booth? I was turned away from that stand at a far quieter rugby game- apparently they could only sell 85% capacity because of unreserved seating- so despite there being free seats there we were asked to go into the north stand.

Like I say anyway, plenty of opportunity for people who want a season ticket with an allocated seat to have that and unreserved seating moving to W5/6/7

[Soctty]

The fencing the English put up in their stadiums because of the violence of their fans ,which stopped the fans getting out was to blame for Hillsborough ,I can still remember the tv coverage that day.

Police opening a gate was the major factor in the disaster. Failure to monitor the amount of people going into the middle pen in the terracing, was another major factor in the disaster.

The fences only came into it because of the catastrophic decisions made by the police, and failure to steward the fans properly when inside the ground and refusal react to the filling up of the middle pen.

Personally I'm all for safe standing to come back. Properly policed and stewarded, there wouldn't be a problem for me.

[Chris]

Whatever it was that was causing the fans to need to "get out" surely caused Hillsborough?

I think its safe to say that if Hillsborough had been all seated then that disaster would not have happened.

Absolute nonsense. If too many people were herded into one section of seating, with fences to either side, fences at the front and a narrow, steeply sloping tunnel at the rear filled with thousands more people being herded into the same section, then the result would have been exactly the same. It is a simple question of physics. If too many people are forced into a contained area, there will be a crush.

[Soctty]

Absolute nonsense. If too many people were herded into one section of seating, with fences to either side, fences at the front and a narrow, steeply sloping tunnel at the rear filled with thousands more people being herded into the same section, then the result would have been exactly the same. It is a simple question of physics. If too many people are forced into a contained area, there will be a crush.

Spot on.

[linwood buddie]

Police opening a gate was the major factor in the disaster. Failure to monitor the amount of people going into the middle pen in the terracing, was another major factor in the disaster.

The fences only came into it because of the catastrophic decisions made by the police, and failure to steward the fans properly when inside the ground and refusal react to the filling up of the middle pen.

Personally I'm all for safe standing to come back. Properly policed and stewarded, there wouldn't be a problem for me.

Yep I agree with you I said that in an earlier post ,that was a reply to a post from Isabella.

[pozbaird]

It costs money. The stadium concrete isn't suited. We therefore won't do it.

Thread can be closed.

Edited August 19, 2013 by pozbaird

[Stuart Dickson]

I wish people wouldn't keep raising the topic though like standing up means more noise. It doesn't. It never did do. I stood at many St Mirren games where the atmosphere was non existent in the 80s and I sat at Hampden Park in the 00's when Scotland played the likes of Germany, Italy and France when the noise was absolutely deafening. Standing or sitting doesn't matter to the noise levels and it's a nonsense argument to reduce safety levels at football ground for.

Are German fans totally silent when their team plays in Europe and they are forced to sit on seats? No. Therefore the argument should be null and void.

[div]

I wish people wouldn't keep raising the topic though like standing up means more noise. It doesn't. It never did do. I stood at many St Mirren games where the atmosphere was non existent in the 80s and I sat at Hampden Park in the 00's when Scotland played the likes of Germany, Italy and France when the noise was absolutely deafening. Standing or sitting doesn't matter to the noise levels and it's a nonsense argument to reduce safety levels at football ground for.

Are German fans totally silent when their team plays in Europe and they are forced to sit on seats? No. Therefore the argument should be null and void.

As usual some reasonable points mixed in with some utter pish.

The action on the pitch makes the atmosphere when all said and done, but generally people are more inclined to sing when they are standing because they can choose to stand together. It's common sense that a group of people are more likely to start singing a song together than when they are all separated.

This is why there is generally more singing at games away from home than there is at St.Mirren Park, as people can generally pick and choose where to sit when we are on our travels, whereas at home they don't have that luxury.

[oaksoft]

As usual some reasonable points mixed in with some utter pish.

The action on the pitch makes the atmosphere when all said and done, but generally people are more inclined to sing when they are standing because they can choose to stand together. It's common sense that a group of people are more likely to start singing a song together than when they are all separated.

This is why there is generally more singing at games away from home than there is at St.Mirren Park, as people can generally pick and choose where to sit when we are on our travels, whereas at home they don't have that luxury.

As others have said, you can cure this without introducing standing.

Simply re-introduce open ticketing where you are allocated entry but not a specific seat.

That'll achieve the same objective without spending much money.

[pozbaird]

As others have said, you can cure this without introducing standing.

Simply re-introduce open ticketing where you are allocated entry but not a specific seat.

That'll achieve the same objective without spending much money.

If the club introduced non seat specific STs, I'd accept their decision without wailing and gnashing my teeth, but I also wouldn't buy an ST any more. I'd save money because I always miss games through the season anyway. I would instead take in sunny games from the main stand to get some heat about me, and would choose the West stand for cold, wet windy games to get more shelter at that side. Might even venture behind the goals once or twice for a change.

Having a seat specific ST is beneficial because I can run late coming from Cumbernauld, especially if the tribute act are at home too, but I know where my mate will be, and it's the seat next to mine. The people behind us, who sat with us at LS are also there every week so we are able to chat about the game. We bought seats with them when we moved grounds so we could stay together. Non-seat specific STs would see us do our own thing and split up. The main reason I buy an ST is for the knowledge that if I arrive an hour early, or fifteen minutes late, my seat is there, and anything I do doesn't impact on my mate - he doesn't need to go early to get two seats together, he doesn't need to text me to say where he's sitting, nothing. I turn up, he turns up. I don't buy an ST for the savings, the dibs on cup and away games, or through any real sense of duty/loyalty.

As I say though, if the club go down a non-specific route, not much I can do about it, but why aren't they going down the non-specific route?

[div]

To be honest for every home game bar Celtic and maybe this season Aberdeen we should be able to have non-specific seating open in W6 and W7.

As far as I remember they trialled that for one game, and even permitted standing in those areas, and it was a disaster with about 20 people taking up the offer.

I was one of them and I returned to my season ticket seat for the second half because it was so poor.

I had a brilliant seat at Love Street but when we moved to the new stadium I somehow ended up in W2 and whilst the guys immediately around me are ok there are some nearby who do my box in. I'd maybe think the atmosphere was better if I moved up somewhere in W4 or W5.

[Guest somner9]

Sounds like a great idea..! to feck around with the main revenue stream that the playing budget is set against with the likelyhood that some would give up their ST as they wouldn't know game to game where they's be sat...

Ffs SGG and DL should polishing your fecking seat at each home game just before you sit down if you've committed to a ST

[pozbaird]

To be honest for every home game bar Celtic and maybe this season Aberdeen we should be able to have non-specific seating open in W6 and W7.

As far as I remember they trialled that for one game, and even permitted standing in those areas, and it was a disaster with about 20 people taking up the offer.

I was one of them and I returned to my season ticket seat for the second half because it was so poor.

I had a brilliant seat at Love Street but when we moved to the new stadium I somehow ended up in W2 and whilst the guys immediately around me are ok there are some nearby who do my box in. I'd maybe think the atmosphere was better if I moved up somewhere in W4 or W5.

Where was your seat at LS? We were almost bang on the halfway line in the NB, level with the pillar - the traditional 'singing section' area next to the fence. They were good seats, apart from Dave M, Big Jake and Juan Sanshoe a few rows behind singing 'Ginger hair is unacceptable!' at any opposition player who fit the bill.

Cnuts. All three of em'. Heh, heh.