Safe Standing

[pozbaird]

Maybe in a packed, noisy South Terrace?

Anyway, the drummer is not really the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is, make going to games cheaper, and fun regardless of what's happening on the park, and I reckon a safe standing area would go a long way to achieving that.

I actually think making the South Stand 'safe standing' and moving the family section into the main stand would indeed create a natural singing section right behind the goal. I can easily see the stand displaying 'Supras' type banners too.

Ain't happening though. As discussed elsewhere, the stadium concrete steps aren't suitable for conversion, it would cost money, and the club only replace missing stadium sign letters after a year, and then only when contacted by more than a few B&W Army forum users, otherwise I bet you it would still be missing. So, for many reasons, a complete non starter.

[Robo]

I actually think making the South Stand 'safe standing' and moving the family section into the main stand would indeed create a natural singing section right behind the goal. I can easily see the stand displaying 'Supras' type banners too.

Ain't happening though. As discussed elsewhere, the stadium concrete steps aren't suitable for conversion, it would cost money, and the club only replace missing stadium sign letters after a year, and then only when contacted by more than a few B&W Army forum users, otherwise I bet you it would still be missing. So, for many reasons, a complete non starter.

You mentioned the concrete being unsuitable before - I know nothing about concrete, but hard to believe that it can support a standard seat but not a rail seat. Do you know what the problem is with it?

As for the cost, the question is, is it worth taking the risk of spending with the hope that it will encourage more fans to come along? If so, and if there was enough support for the idea, perhaps the fans could help to fund it.

[pozbaird]

You mentioned the concrete being unsuitable before - I know nothing about concrete, but hard to believe that it can support a standard seat but not a rail seat. Do you know what the problem is with it?

As for the cost, the question is, is it worth taking the risk of spending with the hope that it will encourage more fans to come along? If so, and if there was enough support for the idea, perhaps the fans could help to fund it.

The rows of concrete that form each row of seats are not deep enough apparently. If you can picture the stand without seats, there's not enough space to install these safe standing barrier thingummyjigs.

Get fans to pay for it? I feel a kiddy-on forum sweary word (or ten) coming on.

[Robo]

The rows of concrete that form each row of seats are not deep enough apparently. If you can picture the stand without seats, there's not enough space to install these safe standing barrier thingummyjigs.

Get fans to pay for it? I feel a kiddy-on forum sweary word (or ten) coming on.

Fair enough if the stand can't be converted.

Interested that you would be so against fans investing in their club. Would your view be different if I qualified that by saying any investment should be recognised by the issue of shares? I realise that the consortium won't do anything to dilute their shareholding, but if they were to match fans investment proportionately, perhaps. Probably demonstrates the need for fan ownership of the club.

[pozbaird]

Fair enough if the stand can't be converted.

Interested that you would be so against fans investing in their club. Would your view be different if I qualified that by saying any investment should be recognised by the issue of shares? I realise that the consortium won't do anything to dilute their shareholding, but if they were to match fans investment proportionately, perhaps. Probably demonstrates the need for fan ownership of the club.

I'm not against fans investing in the club. Fans invest heavily in the club, financially, emotionally, and practically, by undertaking projects for free, serving on the fan council, lots more. Fans were willing to take the plunge and invest in numbers in the failed 10000hours bid. Fans buy shares, season tickets, matchday tickets, merchandise, catering...

There comes a point though where it shouldn't be down to fans. I happen to think something like that would be in the category of a go-ahead BoDs remit to develop the stadium.

[Robo]

I'm not against fans investing in the club. Fans invest heavily in the club, financially, emotionally, and practically, by undertaking projects for free, serving on the fan council, lots more. Fans were willing to take the plunge and invest in numbers in the failed 10000hours bid. Fans buy shares, season tickets, matchday tickets, merchandise, catering...

There comes a point though where it shouldn't be down to fans. I happen to think something like that would be in the category of a go-ahead BoDs remit to develop the stadium.

Had it not been for the debt that was to be serviced, this is exactly the type of project the fans, through 10000 hours, could have proposed, organised and funded as owners if the club. Waiting for a wealthy benefactor to come up with the funds will not move the club forward. Our current board, for all the praise they deserve in getting us where we are, would be crazy to plow in any more of their own cash while trying to sell up. It's almost preventing any investment going into the club, aside from charitable donations. Edited August 20, 2013 by Robo

[northendsaint]

Why is a stand called a stand.Should it not be called a sit.Just asking.

[Stuart Dickson]

Had it not been for the debt that was to be serviced, this is exactly the type of project the fans, through 10000 hours, could have proposed, organised and funded as owners if the club. Waiting for a wealthy benefactor to come up with the funds will not move the club forward. Our current board, for all the praise they deserve in getting us where we are, would be crazy to plow in any more of their own cash while trying to sell up. It's almost preventing any investment going into the club, aside from charitable donations.

Oh come on. Surely not. With all the other worthwhile projects that could have been put in place that would have improved the clubs brand, made it more community centric, raised revenue and increased turnover surely a proposal for spending money ripping seats out to create a standing area, on the basis that you think this might make more people want to come to watch St Mirren, would have been laughed down in seconds.

[Bart Simpson]

I'd like to see a return of terracing esp behind the goals, but doubt it will happen any time soon or at all.

I suppose the real crux of the matter is do you think it would encourage more fans to come along each week? I seem to remember the East Terracing being pretty vacant in the early and mid 90s (apart from Arthurlie and Glenafton in the OVD Semi Final if my memory serves me correctly...)

[oaksoft]

Why is a stand called a stand.Should it not be called a sit.Just asking.

That was my favourite joke in 1993.

[oaksoft]

I love the way people are casually saying "ach just move the family section to the main stand".

That's a nice short hand way of saying "family stand punters are second class citizens" and a pretty good way of pissing off swathes of fans.

I'd never tolerate being forced into the corner of the main stand with my family and I'm pretty sure most people in the family stand would agree.

[linwood buddie]

I love the way people are casually saying "ach just move the family section to the main stand".

That's a nice short hand way of saying "family stand punters are second class citizens" and a pretty good way of pissing off swathes of fans.

I'd never tolerate being forced into the corner of the main stand with my family and I'm pretty sure most people in the family stand would agree.

I know when I used to take my kids to the family stands at both stadiums ,it was to take them away from the more colourful language , don't think I would have been comfortable taking them in near the main body of fans on a bad day.

[pozbaird]

I love the way people are casually saying "ach just move the family section to the main stand".

That's a nice short hand way of saying "family stand punters are second class citizens" and a pretty good way of pissing off swathes of fans.

I'd never tolerate being forced into the corner of the main stand with my family and I'm pretty sure most people in the family stand would agree.

Nope, no-one is saying anyone is a second class citizen. It's merely saying creating a standing area in the South Stand could hypothetically create a natural singing section and improve atmosphere, but for at least a dozen reasons, it simply isn't happening. It's purely a hypothetical discussion. The South Stand clientele shouldn't lose any sleep thinking they are being forced to the Main Stand at gunpoint by a Colombian drugs cartel operating in Paisley.

The only way I could ever see a dedicated safe standing area even being contemplated, would be in the section of the West Stand closest to the away fans in the North. However, even if that idea was actually discussed, that area gets turned over to visiting fans at certain times. Totally defeats the purpose. If some mental Arab or Russian buys us, maybe they'd rip the place down and start afresh, but, like me getting picked for the Ryder Cup team, that ain't happening either.

Four shoeboxes designed for seats. End of.

Edited August 21, 2013 by pozbaird

[Stuart Dickson]

I'd like to visit this claim that making people stand will increase attendances. How does that work exactly? How will the marketing go.?

"St Mirren v Ross County. Admission £20. You used to have to sit down when watching the turgid rubbish St Mirren serve up but now we've removed the seats and you have to stand to watch the same talentless duds." - then stand back to get out the road of the impending rush?

FFS even complete cunts like Ryanair know people will pay more to sit than they will to stand

[Robo]

Oh come on. Surely not. With all the other worthwhile projects that could have been put in place that would have improved the clubs brand, made it more community centric, raised revenue and increased turnover surely a proposal for spending money ripping seats out to create a standing area, on the basis that you think this might make more people want to come to watch St Mirren, would have been laughed down in seconds.

Perhaps not as straight forward as that. Probably more like:

• Proposal to ask BoD to carry out work investigating cost and benefit of introducing safe standing section.
• BoD report back with findings.
• Vote by members based on findings, to either go ahead or not (laughing optional).

Situation now is that current BoD would never carry out a project such as this, regardless of what the benefits might be, because they would be crazy to shell out their own money when they are trying to sell up.

[oaksoft]

creating a standing area in the South Stand could hypothetically create a natural singing section and improve atmosphere,

If you want a natural singing section why not just join a local choir and give the rest of us peace.

Take the drummers with you.

Singing at football grounds is pish.

I just don't understand why the football on display isn't enough entertainment.

This mythical "atmosphere" nonsense is bizarre. The idea that your team can win 4-0, top the league, win a Cup and play like Barcelona but it wouldn't be complete without thousands of pissed, topless fat blokes all singing shit songs out of tune is weird.

On the positive side, at least vuvuzela's didn't take off.

I think murder would be committed if anyone sitting next to me took out either a vuvuzela, a loudspeaker, one of those loud klaxon things or a drum.

At the Stockport game, one guy produced one of those old style rattle things. I felt an overwhelming impulse to impale the guy with it.

[flyingscot]

The rows of concrete that form each row of seats are not deep enough apparently. If you can picture the stand without seats, there's not enough space to install these safe standing barrier thingummyjigs.

Get fans to pay for it? I feel a kiddy-on forum sweary word (or ten) coming on.

That's surprising. If our new place isn't suitable I'd say very few grounds in Scotland are.

[JM1]

Generally, at most foreign grounds, the "singing section" is behind the goals and is standing. The stands down the wings are usually seated.

It usually follows that if you're more interested in singing the whole game you go behind the goals. If you're more interested in watching the game, having a seat & a better view, you'll sit in the stands. At points, the people in the seats will join in with the singing section, but usually the noise will come from the singing section.

If Saints are going to consider anything like this, I would think the best way forward would be to move the family section to main or West stands (unlikely I know) and allow people who're there to create an atmosphere to congregate in the non-reserved seated South Stand.

It's easy to say "If the team are doing well then the atmosphere will get better" but this clearly doesn't happen. The atmosphere is never great at St. Mirren Park. If this is a way to improve it and it's possible to actually do then I'd be happy for it to happen.

[pozbaird]

If you want a natural singing section why not just join a local choir and give the rest of us peace.

Take the drummers with you.

Singing at football grounds is pish.

I just don't understand why the football on display isn't enough entertainment.

This mythical "atmosphere" nonsense is bizarre. The idea that your team can win 4-0, top the league, win a Cup and play like Barcelona but it wouldn't be complete without thousands of pissed, topless fat blokes all singing shit songs out of tune is weird.

On the positive side, at least vuvuzela's didn't take off.

I think murder would be committed if anyone sitting next to me took out either a vuvuzela, a loudspeaker, one of those loud klaxon things or a drum.

At the Stockport game, one guy produced one of those old style rattle things. I felt an overwhelming impulse to impale the guy with it.

If you want a natural singing section why not just join a local choir and give the rest of us peace.

- I don't, and I agree.

Take the drummers with you.

- I absolutely agree.

Singing at football grounds is pish.

- I don't agree.

I just don't understand why the football on display isn't enough entertainment.

- I tend to agree.

This mythical "atmosphere" nonsense is bizarre. The idea that your team can win 4-0, top the league, win a Cup and play like Barcelona but it wouldn't be complete without thousands of pissed, topless fat blokes all singing shit songs out of tune is weird.

- What has the Newcastle support got to do with it?

On the positive side, at least vuvuzela's didn't take off.

I think murder would be committed if anyone sitting next to me took out either a vuvuzela, a loudspeaker, one of those loud klaxon things or a drum.

- I'm with you on that.

At the Stockport game, one guy produced one of those old style rattle things. I felt an overwhelming impulse to impale the guy with it.

- That would have rattled him.

[JM1]

If you want a natural singing section why not just join a local choir and give the rest of us peace.

Take the drummers with you.

Singing at football grounds is pish.

I just don't understand why the football on display isn't enough entertainment.

This mythical "atmosphere" nonsense is bizarre. The idea that your team can win 4-0, top the league, win a Cup and play like Barcelona but it wouldn't be complete without thousands of pissed, topless fat blokes all singing shit songs out of tune is weird.

On the positive side, at least vuvuzela's didn't take off.

I think murder would be committed if anyone sitting next to me took out either a vuvuzela, a loudspeaker, one of those loud klaxon things or a drum.

At the Stockport game, one guy produced one of those old style rattle things. I felt an overwhelming impulse to impale the guy with it.

[Stuart Dickson]

Perhaps not as straight forward as that. Probably more like:

• Proposal to ask BoD to carry out work investigating cost and benefit of introducing safe standing section.
• BoD report back with findings.
• Vote by members based on findings, to either go ahead or not (laughing optional).

Situation now is that current BoD would never carry out a project such as this, regardless of what the benefits might be, because they would be crazy to shell out their own money when they are trying to sell up.

I doubt it would get that far.

You'd start to raise your proposal. "safe standing should be brought in cause it's good and I want it. It might mean people make some more noise. Can you get us the costs?"

Board of Directors response would be "it'll cost loads, reduce the safety levels in the ground, the police don't like it, the local authority say it would reduce capacity and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest it would improve attendances or raise revenue"

Laughing commences.

Yes the Board of Directors would have to be seriously brainless to spend money on it. The stadium is fit for purpose even if it is souless, bland and boring with reasonably poor views of the pitch. Spending loads of money to make it less comfortable, harder to police, and less safe isn't going to make anything any better.

[Stuart Dickson]

If you want a natural singing section why not just join a local choir and give the rest of us peace.

Take the drummers with you.

Singing at football grounds is pish.

I just don't understand why the football on display isn't enough entertainment.

This mythical "atmosphere" nonsense is bizarre. The idea that your team can win 4-0, top the league, win a Cup and play like Barcelona but it wouldn't be complete without thousands of pissed, topless fat blokes all singing shit songs out of tune is weird.

On the positive side, at least vuvuzela's didn't take off.

I think murder would be committed if anyone sitting next to me took out either a vuvuzela, a loudspeaker, one of those loud klaxon things or a drum.

At the Stockport game, one guy produced one of those old style rattle things. I felt an overwhelming impulse to impale the guy with it.

Completely agree.

The 80's were great. I remember them fondly with a lot of nostalgia but singing at a football match has always been pish. At least in the 80's fans made the odd attempt to be current with tunes to the Slade - Run Runaway song, or Bananarama's - Na Na Na, Hey, Hey Kiss Him Goodbye, or KC and the Sunshine Bands "Give It Up" stuff. Current football fans don't have that ability - I mean lets face it the song that got everyone talking after the England v Scotland match was sung to the tune of "You cannae shove your granny off a bus".

[Robo]

I doubt it would get that far.

You'd start to raise your proposal. "safe standing should be brought in cause it's good and I want it. It might mean people make some more noise. Can you get us the costs?"

No I wouldn't. Those are your words and they are ridiculous.

Board of Directors response would be "it'll cost loads, reduce the safety levels in the ground, the police don't like it, the local authority say it would reduce capacity and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest it would improve attendances or raise revenue"

No it wouldn't, because people don't speak like that in the real world. Most people wouldn't cite lack of evidence in an arguement and then provide a load of assertions not backed up with evidence.

Laughing commences.

In the sit-com in your head, maybe.

Yes the Board of Directors would have to be seriously brainless to spend money on it. The stadium is fit for purpose even if it is souless, bland and boring with reasonably poor views of the pitch. Spending loads of money to make it less comfortable, harder to police, and less safe isn't going to make anything any better.

Good grief Stuart, I'll let others make up their minds which scenario is more likely to happen in real life.

[Isabella Duke]

Gates at football matches in Scotland soared after the formation of the SPL. They have been at an historical post 1950s high.

Despite the fact that the late 60s and early 80s were the high points for Scottish football on the field, the gates were awful.

Gates in Scotland per capita are around the highest in Europe. Even the Scottish First Division gets average gates higher than some top flights in Europe!

And the main reason for this incredible increase in gates is seating at football matches.

Its the usual suspects who want a return to standing and alcohol allowed in football grounds. They use words like "atmosphere" when what they really mean is drunken loutish behaviour and shouting abuse at opposition fans and even their fellow supporters.

Standing and alcohol will never return to football grounds in Scotland. Civilisation is here to stay!

[Isabella Duke]

I doubt it would get that far.

You'd start to raise your proposal. "safe standing should be brought in cause it's good and I want it. It might mean people make some more noise. Can you get us the costs?"

Board of Directors response would be "it'll cost loads, reduce the safety levels in the ground, the police don't like it, the local authority say it would reduce capacity and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest it would improve attendances or raise revenue"

Laughing commences.

Yes the Board of Directors would have to be seriously brainless to spend money on it. The stadium is fit for purpose even if it is souless, bland and boring with reasonably poor views of the pitch. Spending loads of money to make it less comfortable, harder to police, and less safe isn't going to make anything any better.

Totally agree Stuart.

This is one subject where you actually speak a lot of sense...