The Referendum Thread

[zurich_allan]

 

The only problem with this is that all of these points are dependent on the party in charge and any solution presented on all points will be temporary.

Independence really is only about one long term decision which is who should control how Scotland brings in and spends the money it generates and the decisions which affect Scots. Should it be Scotland or another country. It's really as simple as that. Anything else is political bullshit IMO.

 

 

Here's an example. Let's say we gain independence.

Take Defence.

If the Tories win the following election we'll see a continued reduction in the armed forces.

Labour will probably do the same.

SNP are talking about increasing it and changing the focus on what they do.

Which one should you base your independence decision on?

I'd say neither. 

 

You can take any of your other points and you'll find 3 different answers from the Tories, Labour and SNP.

Again which do you base your decision on?

Again I'd say logically you can't base it on any of them.

 

This is the reason why I've always stated that independence is about who we want controlling the decisions which affect Scotland. Do you want it to be Scots elected by Scots and answerable only to Scotland or do you want it to continue to be taken by another country where a few token Scots have a say?

To me, this is a total no brainer.

I understand that Oaksoft, that's why early in my post I mentioned that I'd like to see plans on the central issues from all parties, regardless of what side of the fence they fall. Also, I get that in the long term, it ought to be purely about people being able to vote and have a say on their own future etc. However the initial potential post independence period would be so critical and sensitive that you simply cannot ignore the party politics either, as to commit to a policy that initially doesn't pan out could cause lasting if not irreparable damage at such a crucial point. So to an extent, it would actually be naive / irresponsible to completely discount the party politics. Not the whole basis for making a decision, but it has to come into the equation.

I also have multiple concerns about what will happen in a legislative sense as currently the vast majority of laws that cover Scotland are actually UK wide statutes linked to a complex series of linked obligations (EU, ECHR, and other linked domestic laws), are we going to hurriedly rewrite these literally thousands of statutes overnight? Is there a long term plan for this? Are we just going to keep the existing UK statutes but substitute Scotland for UK in the wording (we shouldn't do this as the context is very different).

Lots and lots of questions, but very little by way of credible answers. I hope in time that all parties provide hard answers to all of my concerns and more so that I can make an informed decision either way. Without that assurance, I personally believe that just wanting to control our own affairs is not a strong enough reason to throw the dice.

[Drew]

Ach, I very much subscribe to the Kevin Bridges school of thought on this one....

f**k it! It'll be a laugh!

Edited October 21, 2013 by Drew

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

it's all just a politicians game, i will vohite no because there will be higher taxes to pay, the snp are fronted by a bufoon who's only way of debating with other parties is to slag them off then do his wee smug look and fake laugh, there is a lack of sufficient civil servants with the experience of running a country (it is the civil servants who do most of the running of the uk not any political party) a lot of businesses based in englandshire could possibly close there scottish branches because there will be no uk gov funding available anymore.

independence is not about alex salmond

[faraway saint]

independence is not about alex salmond

Somebody better tell Alex Salmond.

[Lex]

There's an entire year to go FFS. The general public isn't interested yet.

Most people haven't even started thinking about Christmas let alone next November.

The NO campaign think this is already in the bag and don't feel the need to build a case for the union as you and others have said.

That is the biggest hope for the YES campaign.

BTW before you start, I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think the NO campaign will probably win because I think people in this country are simply too scared to take responsibility for their own fate. We seem to like having the English to blame. That's why the NO campaign is a negative one. They are telling people to be afraid and fear sells. You have to applaud it as a tactic.

This campaign is a 4 year campaign that effectively started in May 2010. They've had 3 years and 5 months of it, and they have less than 11 months left. The polls are no closer now than they were in 2010.

Yet this doesn't matter? Amazing. Why have they been spending millions on daft rallies, mail shots and billboards then? Why has all this money been wasted if it doesn't matter just now?

Im glad you accept that no is going to win, many yes campaigners haven't came to terms with this yet.

What disappoints me is your low opinion of the Scottish people. Are you implying we aren't educated enough people to decide this issue for ourselves? Why do you hold your country's people in such low regard?

Unlike you, I think the Scottish people know what they're talking about. We will throw this bill out by at least a 20% margin not because of negative campaigning, but because remaining part of the union is the best thing for Scotland.

[Desperately Seeking Susans]

Somebody better tell Alex Salmond.

meant to add `all`

[oaksoft]

I understand that Oaksoft, that's why early in my post I mentioned that I'd like to see plans on the central issues from all parties, regardless of what side of the fence they fall. Also, I get that in the long term, it ought to be purely about people being able to vote and have a say on their own future etc. However the initial potential post independence period would be so critical and sensitive that you simply cannot ignore the party politics either, as to commit to a policy that initially doesn't pan out could cause lasting if not irreparable damage at such a crucial point. So to an extent, it would actually be naive / irresponsible to completely discount the party politics. Not the whole basis for making a decision, but it has to come into the equation.

I also have multiple concerns about what will happen in a legislative sense as currently the vast majority of laws that cover Scotland are actually UK wide statutes linked to a complex series of linked obligations (EU, ECHR, and other linked domestic laws), are we going to hurriedly rewrite these literally thousands of statutes overnight? Is there a long term plan for this? Are we just going to keep the existing UK statutes but substitute Scotland for UK in the wording (we shouldn't do this as the context is very different).

Lots and lots of questions, but very little by way of credible answers. I hope in time that all parties provide hard answers to all of my concerns and more so that I can make an informed decision either way. Without that assurance, I personally believe that just wanting to control our own affairs is not a strong enough reason to throw the dice.

I think it's fair to say, and I'm going on a limb here that the most likely situation after independence is that we'll basically be unchanged for the following 5-10 years because it's oin the interests of both Scotland and the UK to make as few changes as possible.

For example, we'll have the pound, retain trident in the short term, remain part of the EU and retain the borders and immigration policy as well as retaining the queen and oversight from the Bank of England. Anyone who thinks the UK would not see that as in their own interests as well as ours is basically lying or Stuart Dickson.

There's absolutely no chance whatsoever of thousands of pieces of legislation being completely re-written overnight.

The only difference will be that we'll be equal partners with the UK rather than financially dependent on it and over the longer term we'll start to assert our own individuality.

Other than that we'll see virtually no other major changes for at least 5-10 years.

Of course I could be wrong about this but I don't see it working any other way. This'll be a long term project and I don't think I'll live to see the sort of bullshit scare stories we're being frightened with come to fruition.

Edited October 21, 2013 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

Good point.

You hurtful bastard. The sort of person who pulls the legs off spiders and then drops them in a cup of Dettol.

Edited October 21, 2013 by oaksoft

[faraway saint]

You hurtful bastard. The sort of person who pulls the legs off spiders and then drops them in a cup of Dettol.

You're next.

[FTOF]

What disappoints me is your low opinion of the Scottish people. Are you implying we aren't educated enough people to decide this issue for ourselves? Why do you hold your country's people in such low regard?

Unlike you, I think the Scottish people know what they're talking about. We will throw this bill out by at least a 20% margin not because of negative campaigning, but because remaining part of the union is the best thing for Scotland.

I think the Scottish people have the potential to do great things in order to take Scotland forward as a nation. However, centuries of oppression and more recent extremely Anglo centric policies have knocked the fight out of us and we seem to accept that the political situation during our life time is as good as it gets.

As I said earlier, if you don't want a say on how to run our country in a way that benefits Scotland meaningfully for the Scottish people, then vote no.

My feelings are that I would rue not even making the effort to try and take our future into our own hands, as it would leave me with a feeling of regret for the rest of my life.

It's a highly emotive and personal subject, but I think the biggest disrespect being paid to our nation is by the no camp, who, by implication, have written us all off as no hopers who couldn't possibly make it work on our own. Even more insulting is the fact that they've done this in such a negative and dismissive manner.

I also think you'd be very surprised how many educated people think that a yes vote is voting for Alex Salmond. I've had to explain this to several individuals, who are both well educated and intelligent.

Unfortunately for Salmond, he's had no credible political opposition in the UK for several years. As a result,he's got far too full of himself and made himself very hard to like, and for the "floating" voters, very difficult to vote for.

Edited October 21, 2013 by FTOF

[oaksoft]

Im glad you accept that no is going to win, many yes campaigners haven't came to terms with this yet.

What disappoints me is your low opinion of the Scottish people. Are you implying we aren't educated enough people to decide this issue for ourselves? Why do you hold your country's people in such low regard?

Unlike you, I think the Scottish people know what they're talking about. We will throw this bill out by at least a 20% margin not because of negative campaigning, but because remaining part of the union is the best thing for Scotland.

You're glad? It matters not a jot whether you or I think the NO campaign will win or not. Not sure why you think that's important. What will be will be. It's my lack of faith in Scots which is convincing me that the NO vote will win. I just don't think enough of them have the balls to want to make decisions for themselves without having the English Tories to blame if things go tits.

It's probably not completely an education thing although it's worth pointing out that a substantial number of our most talented people work in other countries - such is the lack of opportunitiy up here. That is the stark factual reality of our "Better Together" nation. Under those circumstances it's almost laughable to suggest that what we have now is worth keeping.

So in short, I don't trust Scots to make the right decision. It'll be partly done through fear of the unknown OR it will be an unwillingness to want to be responsible for the decisions which affect our country. Possibly both.

Any other reason is simply illogical.

Not a single person has provided a reasonable explanation as to why we should allow another country to control everything meangful that we do.

Edited October 21, 2013 by oaksoft

[buddiecat]

i think that higher taxation here and better opportunities down south may well see a further drain of our best talents should a yes vote come to win the day. this has always been a problem for us (lack of opportunities causing the brain drain) and many including the majority of my siblings have gone south to get better lives because that was where they could get the best deal for their particular talents,staying in scotland was not so bad as it is less expensive to live here but if it becomes as expensive or even more expensive to live in scotland compared to southern england then i fear more talent will up sticks and move there.

[bluto]

I think the Scottish people have the potential to do great things in order to take Scotland forward as a nation. However, centuries of oppression and more recent extremely Anglo centric policies have knocked the fight out of us and we seem to accept that the political situation during our life time is as good as it gets.

******* SORRY... WHAT CENTURIES OF OPPRESSION ARE YOU IMAGINING? Are you a celtic supporter? Paranoid? The British Empire was founded in large part by Scots. The Union came about because Scotland was pretty much bankrupt due the Darien exploit. Falling in with the English helped Scotland gain great wealth and provided lots of jobs for Jocks abroad. It was our Empire as much as the English.

There haven't been Anglo-centric policies... There have been rightwingwankfest policies (the adjective wasn't mine. It was suggested by the predictive text on this iPad.... Oops.) which appealed to the majority of voters in the UK. And now - cos a few Scots don't like them - they want to give up without a fight and abandon the rest of the UK to that kind of shite.

So much for democracy, so much for passion, morality and doing the right thing. Scots have had a slightly tough time and so they don't want to play the game any more.

That kind of quitting attitude gives me little faith in the ambition and courage of those who would be "independent"... With the same Royal Family, using the British pound, sharing defence needs etc etc.********

Unfortunately for Salmond, he's had no credible political opposition in the UK for several years. As a result,he's got far too full of himself and made himself very hard to like, and for the "floating" voters, very difficult to vote for.

*****FORTUNATELY for Salmond he's had no credible opposition in SCOTLAND for several years cos most political Scots wanted (and succeeded) to be on a bigger stage. He was left with an open field.

Salmond has done a brilliant job as a one-trick pony cos (mixing my metaphors) he was the only big beast in the Scottish Forest. He could keep harping on about the Scottish question whilst the lesser lights of the other parties tried to keep up with him.

I can't help but genuinely admire him. He knew what he wanted and had no distractions. A great, wonderful, political animal. The fact that I think Nationalism is a philosophy that losers naturally turn to, (no personal offence intended... ) makes me despise him, personally. ****

[bluto]

i think that higher taxation here and better opportunities down south may well see a further drain of our best talents should a yes vote come to win the day. this has always been a problem for us (lack of opportunities causing the brain drain) and many including the majority of my siblings have gone south to get better lives because that was where they could get the best deal for their particular talents,staying in scotland was not so bad as it is less expensive to live here but if it becomes as expensive or even more expensive to live in scotland compared to southern england then i fear more talent will up sticks and move there.

Great point.

I headed south cos I wanted to be better paid for what I could do. No other Scottish companies could compete with my then employer. In London there were shoals of companies offering more, and also offering opportunities to work overseas.

Oaksoft says, "Not a single person has provided a reasonable explanation as to why we should allow another country to control everything meangful that we do." He, like most people, ignores the HUGE ELEPHANT in the Scottish room. We live within a Capitalist system. THAT is what dictates most meaningful decisions in your life, not the Nationality of your neighbours. It's not 'the other country' that is to blame.

It was Capitalism which dictated that I (and generations of Scots) leave my homeland in an attempt to find a better life. Blame Capitalism.

That... And I had been seduced by the Swinging Sixties and ALL that London had to offer.

(Btw, it's not England that distorts the politics in the UK. It's London alone. A lavishly wealthy city state more powerful than all else that surrounds it. All the regions of England - and Wales, too - suffer equally as much as the moaning Scots. And I guess the very thought of Scots abandoning/condemning the other parts of the UK to constant Conservatism is what really riles me...)

Edited October 21, 2013 by bluto

[BuddieinEK]

All the regions of England - and Wales, too - suffer equally as much as the moaning Scots. And I guess the very thought of Scots abandoning/condemning the other parts of the UK to constant Conservatism is what really riles me...)

Bluto... that has been my Mantra since day one.

Locally, the SNP politicians are among the few I respect and have time for... they care and I would vote for them without a moments hesitation at a local level... but I cannot agree with their national politics.

I asked my local SNP MSP (who I have all the time in the world for) what the benefits of independence would be.

After listening, I told her that if me being better off as a result of independence meant that some poor pensioner in Hull or Wigan suffered as a result... if some poor family in Leeds or Newcastle were worse off to make me wealthier... then I could not support that.

I asked for a reason to support independence other than increased personal wealth. The only thing I got was "we would be able to make our own decisions"!

Sorry... but increased devolution would give exactly that, would it not?

[Bart Simpson]

For me the answer is Yes.

I would happily see Scotland as a wee but Independent country in Europe and as a Republic.

However, I respect the views of those who disagree, whether it be with regards Independence, Europe or the Monarchy.

In the modern world I see no need for a hierarchical system as exists in Britain and would happily see this change, but that is not the question currently in hand.

Independence is simply a question of self determination, something over which each nation, not just Scotland, should have complete control of.

For me this is an aspirational view, taking responsibility for our own destiny and creating a better society for all to live in.

Regardless of the result of the referendum we all have to get up the next day and go to work with those of opposing opinions. The rest of Britain will still be next door, as will our European neighbours.

The next year should be dedicated to a grown up discussion of the pros and cons of each position.

Scotland has gained a lot from the Act of Union, but to argue this hasn't been at an equally great cost is wrong. Many Scots though don't see this as we have never, in my opinion, particularly been a united people, but with time this is changing as people see we can take responsibility for our own affairs.

The referendum regardless of the result allows us all to examine where we stand and where we all would like to go as a Nation.

Regardless of the result it is another step towards more autonomy and would say that the hard work for the BT campaign will start following a No vote, in that the status quo isn't working for the people of Scotland otherwise we would not be having a referendum on Independence. Devo Max will then come to the fore and in a generation or two as more and more Scots see that we can take full responsibility for our own destiny the Independence question will be asked once more with a different answer.

This is a journey for us all whether you see it as a waste of time or with conviction and passion. Hopefully the next year will bring constructive debate and engage the population as a whole without antagonism and negativity.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

We will all make up our own minds but for the life of me I can’t understand why you would not want local people to look after local policies. Where is the largest investment in the UK for the past 20 years and longer, down south no less that’s why so many Scots go south You and me have no idea what taxation will be like, it won’t be much worse than what we have at the moment. I can hear you say here we go again oil will help an independent Scotland pay off its share of national debt far quicker than the South will be able to do. How will the south pay off its national debt ? Yes you are right cuts and taxation. There is plenty proof out there that Thatcher’s government put out propaganda to frighten the Scottish people which worked. Had we got our independence back then we would be a wealthy vibrant country going by Norway which has no debt and banks over flowing at the seams with cash all thanks to oil.

Being independent we will be able to set taxation for companies to come and invest in Scotland creating jobs which will stop people going south as they have today under the UK government.

The Scottish government has been a pain in the ass to our education departments. But on the other side of the coin universities are free unlike down south. A teacher in Scotland has to be fully qualified before standing in front of children. In England now you don’t need to be qualified to be a teacher. One Muslim school as not one qualified teacher in its ranks which would never happen in Scotland. Everything will not be all rosy in independence but 100% will be far better off than we will be under another term of Tory government.

[BuddieinEK]

We will all make up our own minds but for the life of me I can’t understand why you would not want local people to look after local policies. Where is the largest investment in the UK for the past 20 years and longer, down south no less that’s why so many Scots go south You and me have no idea what taxation will be like, it won’t be much worse than what we have at the moment. I can hear you say here we go again oil will help an independent Scotland pay off its share of national debt far quicker than the South will be able to do. How will the south pay off its national debt  ? Yes you are right cuts and taxation. There is plenty proof out there that Thatcher’s government put out propaganda to frighten the Scottish people which worked. Had we got our independence back then we would be a wealthy vibrant country going by Norway which has no debt and banks over flowing at the seams with cash all thanks to oil.

Being independent we will be able to set taxation for companies to come and invest in Scotland creating jobs which will stop people going south as they have today under the UK government.

The Scottish government has been a pain in the ass to our education departments. But on the other side of the coin universities are free unlike down south. A teacher in Scotland has to be fully qualified before standing in front of children. In England now you don’t need to be qualified to be a teacher. One Muslim school as not one qualified teacher in its ranks which would never happen in Scotland. Everything will not be all rosy in independence but 100% will be far better off than we will be under another term of Tory government.    

Fair enough... but again I wonder.. will that mean I'm better off at the expense of pensioners in the Midlands? Hard working Geordies? Unemployed Welsh miners?

It's an awfy wee Island. I don't want to become wealthier at their expense.

[Stuart Dickson]

I think it's fair to say, and I'm going on a limb here that the most likely situation after independence is that we'll basically be unchanged for the following 5-10 years because it's oin the interests of both Scotland and the UK to make as few changes as possible.

For example, we'll have the pound, retain trident in the short term, remain part of the EU and retain the borders and immigration policy as well as retaining the queen and oversight from the Bank of England. Anyone who thinks the UK would not see that as in their own interests as well as ours is basically lying or Stuart Dickson.

There's absolutely no chance whatsoever of thousands of pieces of legislation being completely re-written overnight.

The only difference will be that we'll be equal partners with the UK rather than financially dependent on it and over the longer term we'll start to assert our own individuality.

Other than that we'll see virtually no other major changes for at least 5-10 years.

Of course I could be wrong about this but I don't see it working any other way. This'll be a long term project and I don't think I'll live to see the sort of bullshit scare stories we're being frightened with come to fruition.

Oh FFS Scotland have got no hope of being equal partners with England. No hope at all. To claim that is absurd. It's almost as ridiculous as thinking that one day the Scottish Premiership could be as rich and as powerful as the English Premiership - or as thinking that gate prices in the two countries should be comparable!

England will continue to be major powers on the global market. The London Stock Exchange will continue to hold it's status as one of the biggest and most important Stock Exchanges in the world - currently it's the fourth biggest behind two in the USA and one in Japan. England will retain it's veto in the European Parliament, they'll continue to enjoy equal status with the likes of Germany and France and they will continue to hold the attention and influence of American politicians who will continue to see England as an important ally and as a friend. And Sterling will continue to be one of the worlds most important currencies.

Scotland, without England, will have all the standing and voice of Lithuania or Belarus which is fantastic if you are a Eurovision Song Contest fan, but it's going to be frustrating as f**k when you realise that Independence within Europe means being ruled over by politicians who couldn't even point your country out on a map, never mind being elected on a manifesto that has any relevance in Scotland. How can anyone say Scotland - which hasn't even had a stock exchange for 40 years - will enjoy equal standing? Even if Scotland manages to hold onto it's NATO status - as the SNP tell us we will - it's going to be on a "you'll do what you are told" basis and nothing else.

As for all this shite about a vote for independence being "positive" and a vote for the Union being "negative" - how the f**k does that work? The Union has had a positive effect on Scotland for almost 400 years. Scotland benefited more than any other part of the Union through our trading with the colonies and with the commonwealth. Want proof? Look at Paisley's history built almost entirely in a pattern stolen from India printed onto fabric that was sold into every part of the Empire.

Like Lex says the Better Together campaign doesn't have to make a case for Scots to vote to stay in the Union. The case is made for it by 300 years of combined power, wealth and success. You can continue to enjoy all the benefits of the most successful political Union in European history. It's the separatists that have to prove the case for Independence. They have to prove we will no worse off at the very least - an argument that the separatists haven't even come close to making in their campaign so far.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

We will all make up our own minds but for the life of me I can’t understand why you would not want local people to look after local policies. Where is the largest investment in the UK for the past 20 years and longer, down south no less that’s why so many Scots go south You and me have no idea what taxation will be like, it won’t be much worse than what we have at the moment. I can hear you say here we go again oil will help an independent Scotland pay off its share of national debt far quicker than the South will be able to do. How will the south pay off its national debt ? Yes you are right cuts and taxation. There is plenty proof out there that Thatcher’s government put out propaganda to frighten the Scottish people which worked. Had we got our independence back then we would be a wealthy vibrant country going by Norway which has no debt and banks over flowing at the seams with cash all thanks to oil.

Being independent we will be able to set taxation for companies to come and invest in Scotland creating jobs which will stop people going south as they have today under the UK government.

The Scottish government has been a pain in the ass to our education departments. But on the other side of the coin universities are free unlike down south. A teacher in Scotland has to be fully qualified before standing in front of children. In England now you don’t need to be qualified to be a teacher. One Muslim school as not one qualified teacher in its ranks which would never happen in Scotland. Everything will not be all rosy in independence but 100% will be far better off than we will be under another term of Tory government.

Oh FFS.

First off local people DO look after local policies. They always have done. Those people are councillors elected to run the policies that run your schools, hospitals, your sports centres, community centres and who empty your bins and fix the roads. They made local policy decisions long before devolution and they will continue to do so regardless of whether Scottish people vote for Independence or not.

Devolution created an extra tier - a wasteful tier - to politics in the UK. Suddenly in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the political gene pool was further diluted. Where those not deemed competent enough to be elected to represent their electorate in Westminster, could be hand picked by their party leaders to pick up a big pay cheque and huge expenses in a kind of retirement home where they get to talk about important life changing matters like whether cyclists should be given favour in the eyes of the law if they are hit by a car.

Thirdly a yes vote next November will see Scotland gain Independence Within Europe if the campaign is to be believed. Apparently we'll still be in the European Parliament and in NATO which will mean that instead of English speaking people in London making our big budget and defence decisions we are going to hand control of that to politicians who couldn't point Scotland out on a world map, and who refuse to speak English, never mind give much thought to policies that have an impact on Scottish life. Just ask the Scottish fishermen what they think of the European Parliaments ability to represent their interests has been over the last 40 years. Far from Independence delivering a "local voice on local policies" it's going to have almost the exact opposite effect.

[Stuart Dickson]

Devo Max will then come to the fore and in a generation or two as more and more Scots see that we can take full responsibility for our own destiny the Independence question will be asked once more with a different answer.

God I hope not. I can't think of anything worse right now than having MSP's attempting to run taxation and spending in Scotland. The last four Parliaments have seen Cabinet Secretaries for Finance who have set out spending plans and budgets that they've failed to stick to. John Swinney in particular has been guilty of over promising and under delivering when setting budgets. I wouldn't trust any of those fannies with pocket money, never mind taxation revenue.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Bluto... that has been my Mantra since day one.

Locally, the SNP politicians are among the few I respect and have time for... they care and I would vote for them without a moments hesitation at a local level... but I cannot agree with their national politics.

I asked my local SNP MSP (who I have all the time in the world for) what the benefits of independence would be.

After listening, I told her that if me being better off as a result of independence meant that some poor pensioner in Hull or Wigan suffered as a result... if some poor family in Leeds or Newcastle were worse off to make me wealthier... then I could not support that.

I asked for a reason to support independence other than increased personal wealth. The only thing I got was "we would be able to make our own decisions"!

Sorry... but increased devolution would give exactly that, would it not?

Wrote this further back which is important to understand 3/4 of all Brittish wealth is in London and the south east. I'm not so sure as a person you or I will be better off but hell I would sure like to give it a try. Nothing to do with not liking England , everything to do with standing on your own two feet. Do you think fuel companies going private has been good for you ? Or the post office going private will be good for rural Scotland ? IAnyway as much as I hope we get the YES vote I don't see it happening this time round.

[Stuart Dickson]

Wrote this further back which is important to understand 3/4 of all Brittish wealth is in London and the south east. I'm not so sure as a person you or I will be better off but hell I would sure like to give it a try. Nothing to do with not liking England , everything to do with standing on your own two feet. Do you think fuel companies going private has been good for you ? Or the post office going private will be good for rural Scotland ? IAnyway as much as I hope we get the YES vote I don't see it happening this time round.

What makes you think that an Independent Scotland could have continued to subsidise the post office through all of it's bad years? If the Post Office struggled to break even with business across the whole of the UK how the hell do you think a Scottish Post Office could have done better - when everyone knows the most costly parts of the UK to deliver mail to is rural Scotland.

[saintargyll]

I think the reason a no vote is romping the polls and is the clear favourite with all bookmakers is very little to do with party politics. The reason is simply that there isn't a convincing case for independence, and there never has been.

in this so called poll...were you asked?

[saintargyll]

There doesn't have to be a case to keep the union though. As with any change, there needs to be a clear and convincing need to change. The No campaign isn't selling anything new, the Yes campaign is.

It's been up to them to come out and sell the idea of an independent Scotland to the nation, and it's something the people of Scotland just isn't buying.

Historical polls going back 20 odd years for this question show support to be roughly 60-40 in favour of no. After the millions pounds spent by the yes campaigners in the 3 years since the SNP's majority election victory.... it's still roughly 60-40 in favour of no.

They've made no inroads whatsoever. Is support for independence going to shift more in the next 11 months than it has done in the last 20 years? Of course it isn't, and that's why a no vote is a 1/7 shot at the bookies.

Have you ever been asked in any of these polls???