The Referendum Thread

[oaksoft]

Let him take one step at a time...

Have you not realised that yet again you're butting into someone else's conversation trying to be funny and they're both ignoring you.

[oaksoft]

As i've said already, the better together campaigners aren't selling anything. It's not up to as to make a case. Here's a thought however. A hypothetical thought, as a no vote is a cast iron certainty, but a thought none the less.

If Scotland becomes independent we will continue to use the pound, but we will lose representation in the parliament which regulates the BoE, that sets the base rate of the pound. Basically we will be losing control of our own currency, we will be relying on a government in which we will have no representation looking after our own currency. Is this independence?

If the value of the pound falls, there will be no one we can complain to, because we won't have representation in the parliament which makes vital decisions on how our currency is controlled. Scottish exports and businesses could fail on a matter that's completely out with the control of the Scottish government. Freedom? Anything but.

A yes vote is a vote for taking away Scottish representation on the running and administration of the currency being used. Why would anyone want this? Why do yes campaigners want Scotland to have less fiscal autonomy than it has currently?

This is one of a host of unanswered questions from the yes campaigners. This is one of a host of reasons that they're being humped in every relevant poll. This is one of a host of reasons that next years referendum won't even be close.

65%-35%

There is no "case" to be made at all. It's purely a vote on who you want making decisions affecting Scotland.

Do you want Scots voted by Scots to do it or do you want the English doing it.

Everything else is pure speculation and pish because it'll depend on who is elected.

The SNP are planning to keep pretty much everything as it is which is sensible and the right thing to do.

Stop trying to confuse what is essentially a very easy problem to understand.

Edited November 4, 2013 by oaksoft

[faraway saint]

Have you not realised that yet again you're butting into someone else's conversation trying to be funny and they're both ignoring you.

Who are you?

[bluto]

As i've said already, the better together campaigners aren't selling anything. It's not up to as to make a case. Here's a thought however. A hypothetical thought, as a no vote is a cast iron certainty, but a thought none the less.

If Scotland becomes independent we will continue to use the pound, but we will lose representation in the parliament which regulates the BoE, that sets the base rate of the pound. Basically we will be losing control of our own currency, we will be relying on a government in which we will have no representation looking after our own currency. Is this independence?

If the value of the pound falls, there will be no one we can complain to, because we won't have representation in the parliament which makes vital decisions on how our currency is controlled. Scottish exports and businesses could fail on a matter that's completely out with the control of the Scottish government. Freedom? Anything but.

A yes vote is a vote for taking away Scottish representation on the running and administration of the currency being used. Why would anyone want this? Why do yes campaigners want Scotland to have less fiscal autonomy than it has currently?

This is one of a host of unanswered questions from the yes campaigners. This is one of a host of reasons that they're being humped in every relevant poll. This is one of a host of reasons that next years referendum won't even be close.

65%-35%

There is no "case" to be made at all. It's purely a vote on who you want making decisions affecting Scotland.

Do you want Scots voted by Scots to do it or do you want the English doing it.

Everything else is pure speculation and pish because it'll depend on who is elected.

The SNP are planning to keep pretty much everything as it is which is sensible and the right thing to do.

Stop trying to confuse what is essentially a very easy problem to understand.

Sorry, but you appear to be missing (surely not ignoring...) lex's point which addresses - solely - a vital part of a nation's decision-making process.

Who will be in control of decision-making with regard to the money supply?

It will be everyone in the UK... except the Scots.

Quite important.

[Stuart Dickson]

 

There is no "case" to be made at all. It's purely a vote on who you want making decisions affecting Scotland.

Do you want Scots voted by Scots to do it or do you want the English doing it.

 

Everything else is pure speculation and pish because it'll depend on who is elected.

The SNP are planning to keep pretty much everything as it is which is sensible and the right thing to do.

 

Stop trying to confuse what is essentially a very easy problem to understand.

There isn't a single Scottish politician arguing for Scotland to have our own currency - not one - so it is extremely relevant who will be pulling the economic levers.

[oaksoft]

Sorry, but you appear to be missing (surely not ignoring...) lex's point which addresses - solely - a vital part of a nation's decision-making process.

Who will be in control of decision-making with regard to the money supply?

It will be everyone in the UK... except the Scots.

Quite important.

In the short term only which is sensible.

Only an idiot would try and change everything overnight - even with full independence.

Everything will be open to debate beyond independence including our currency.

We can't have that debate at the moment because we are not allowed to.

[oaksoft]

There isn't a single Scottish politician arguing for Scotland to have our own currency - not one - so it is extremely relevant who will be pulling the economic levers.

At the moment and in the short term yes and that is sensible.

Only an idiot……..see my post above to bluto.

[Lex]

At the moment and in the short term yes and that is sensible.

Only an idiot……..see my post above to bluto.

You've missed my point. If Scotland were to become independent retaining the pound is unquestionably the best available option, it's the lesser of three evils. The other two being attempting to join the cluster f**k German controlled Euro or taking the risk and expense of forming our own currency. Neither are viable options and neither will be for a considerable time.

The point is what folly it is for a country's best option to be giving up its own fiscal autonomy. That's the best thing an independent Scotland could hope for. The best thing is crossing our fingers and hoping a foreign country's government in which we are not represented makes decisions regarding our currency that are in the best interest of the Scottish people. What utter folly.

It's no wonder the Scottish people can't wait to throw this bill out.

[oaksoft]

You've missed my point. If Scotland were to become independent retaining the pound is unquestionably the best available option, it's the lesser of three evils. The other two being attempting to join the cluster f**k German controlled Euro or taking the risk and expense of forming our own currency. Neither are viable options and neither will be for a considerable time.

I understand that BUT it should be the Scottish parliament elected by Scots who should be making that decision not Westminster.

Edited November 4, 2013 by oaksoft

[bluto]

I understand that BUT it should be the Scottish parliament elected by Scots who should be making that decision not Westminster.

You're struggling, obviously.

You 'understand' that... yet persist with irrelevant lunacy.

There will be NO singularly Scottish decision-making on currency, if it is linked to the GBP OR if it is linked to the Euro. An independent Scotland could not influence UK currency and similarly an Independent Scotland if it got into/went into Europe would have to go with the Euro flow.

However... if, say, a Scottish Parliament decided to fly solo with, say, 'The Bawbee' well then, ok, it could be said that it was Scottish decision-making. Even then, the International Markets would dictate where The Bawbee sat vis a vis the GBP and/or the Euro.

Edited November 4, 2013 by bluto

[faraway saint]

You're struggling, obviously.

You 'understand' that... yet persist with irrelevant lunacy.

There will be NO singularly Scottish decision-making on currency, if it is linked to the GBP OR if it is linked to the Euro. An independent Scotland could not influence UK currency and similarly an Independent Scotland if it got into/went into Europe would have to go with the Euro flow.

However... if, say, a Scottish Parliament decided to fly solo with, say, 'The Bawbee' well then, ok, it could be said that it was Scottish decision-making. Even then, the International Markets would dictate where The Bawbee sat vis a vis the GBP and/or the Euro.

I'll change my vote to yes if the "bawbee" is a cert for our new currency.

[smcc]

You're struggling, obviously.

You 'understand' that... yet persist with irrelevant lunacy.

There will be NO singularly Scottish decision-making on currency, if it is linked to the GBP OR if it is linked to the Euro. An independent Scotland could not influence UK currency and similarly an Independent Scotland if it got into/went into Europe would have to go with the Euro flow.

However... if, say, a Scottish Parliament decided to fly solo with, say, 'The Bawbee' well then, ok, it could be said that it was Scottish decision-making. Even then, the International Markets would dictate where The Bawbee sat vis a vis the GBP and/or the Euro.

I wonder if you would be good enough to tell us how much influence Scottish voters have on the Uk currency as things stand at present.

I don't think we have any influence with 59 Scottish MPs out of a total of 650.

[Lex]

I understand that BUT it should be the Scottish parliament elected by Scots who should be making that decision not Westminster.

Can't you see your contradiction here? The decision has been made regarding an independent Scotland currency, the only viable decision, which is we will be keeping what will become the Northern Irish, Welsh and English pound. The only difference being we will be surrendering our representation in the parliament in which critical decisions are made regarding the management of that currency.

Surely its better to have Scottish MP's in Westminster citing Scottish interests when key fiscal policies are being debated than having no Scottish representation at all?

A vote for independence is a vote for decreasing to zero the Scottish peoples representation on the management of our own currency.

[Lex]

I wonder if you would be good enough to tell us how much influence Scottish voters have on the Uk currency as things stand at present.

I don't think we have any influence with 59 Scottish MPs out of a total of 650.

It's certainly infinitely better than 0 out of 591, which is what's being proposed by the separatists.

[oaksoft]

You're struggling, obviously.

You 'understand' that... yet persist with irrelevant lunacy.

There will be NO singularly Scottish decision-making on currency, if it is linked to the GBP OR if it is linked to the Euro. An independent Scotland could not influence UK currency and similarly an Independent Scotland if it got into/went into Europe would have to go with the Euro flow.

However... if, say, a Scottish Parliament decided to fly solo with, say, 'The Bawbee' well then, ok, it could be said that it was Scottish decision-making. Even then, the International Markets would dictate where The Bawbee sat vis a vis the GBP and/or the Euro.

Deary me.

This is REALLY simple bluto.

An independent Scotland will be able to decide what currency it wants for itself.

It can do this at any time.

At the moment we can't do this at all.

[RickMcD]

Deary me.

This is REALLY simple bluto.

An independent Scotland will be able to decide what currency it wants for itself.

It can do this at any time.

At the moment we can't do this at all.

I'm beginning to get your drift, Oaky. Bad decisions won't seem just as bad when they're bad Scottish decisions. Do you really think Scotland can choose a currency at any time? Just watch speculators hovering like vultures.

[Stuart Dickson]

 

I wonder if you would be good enough to tell us how much influence Scottish voters have on the Uk currency as things stand at present.

 

I don't think we have any influence with 59 Scottish MPs out of a total of 650.

Oh FFS. Two of the last three Chancellor's are Scottish

[bluto]

I wonder if you would be good enough to tell us how much influence Scottish voters have on the Uk currency as things stand at present.

I don't think we have any influence with 59 Scottish MPs out of a total of 650.

Apart from the point Lex offered, there is the glaringly obvious example of Gordon Brown,(the MP for Dunfermline who took the wise decision at the time for GB NOT to join the Euro), and there have been shoals of other able Scots in the British Government. There has ALWAYS been Scottish influence upon the British Government, so it's just silly to always blame the English.

Obviously, in terms of 'able', Danny Alexander disnae make the cut...

[FTOF]

Of course the recent Scottish chancellors consulted the Scottish voters, before being told what to do by a London centric government and it's advisors.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Of course the recent Scottish chancellors consulted the Scottish voters, before being told what to do by a London centric government and it's advisors.

Exactly, decisions are currently made based on what is best for London, not Scotland, its economy, industry or people.

[oaksoft]

I'm beginning to get your drift, Oaky. Bad decisions won't seem just as bad when they're bad Scottish decisions. Do you really think Scotland can choose a currency at any time? Just watch speculators hovering like vultures.

Yes of course we can.

I don't think we WILL and I'm not suggesting it would be a good or a bad decision but I keep coming back to this - it'll be OUR decision and not Westminster's.

This is about ownership of the decision making process - not about whether making a particular decision will be a good one or not.

People are getting hung up on the latter when the vote next year is about the former.

ETA: Not all decisions will be bad ones BTW. For those politicians who do make bad decisions, they are more likely to be held accountable by their Scottish voters if they do f**k up. At the moment they can butcher Scotland (e.g. the bedroom tax, the welfare cuts, the attack on the poor and disabled) with impunity and there's not a bloody thing we can do about it.

Someone somewhere can try to persuade me that it's a good thing that we can't do a single thing to stop a Tory government, which has not been voted for by our country, causing mayhem and wilful destruction on our people whenever they feel like it.

Edited November 4, 2013 by oaksoft

[bluto]

Yes of course we can.

I don't think we WILL and I'm not suggesting it would be a good or a bad decision but I keep coming back to this - it'll be OUR decision and not Westminster's.

This is about ownership of the decision making process - not about whether making a particular decision will be a good one or not.

People are getting hung up on the latter when the vote next year is about the former.

ETA: Not all decisions will be bad ones BTW. For those politicians who do make bad decisions, they are more likely to be held accountable by their Scottish voters if they do f**k up. At the moment they can butcher Scotland (e.g. the bedroom tax, the welfare cuts, the attack on the poor and disabled) with impunity and there's not a bloody thing we can do about it.

Someone somewhere can try to persuade me that it's a good thing that we can't do a single thing to stop a Tory government, which has not been voted for by our country, causing mayhem and wilful destruction on our people whenever they feel like it.

You don't seem to understand 'democracy'. It's far from perfect but it's what we've got.

Democracy won't ever give you all that you want.

Today it's the UK that pisses you off, next year (if there's been a yes vote) it may be the east coast and Teuchters that get your goat, cos they won't do something you think might be good for Paisley, then what? Independence for Renfrewshire... Or mibbe Kilmacolm? Or just your street?

In the modern, integrated and interdependent world, you need to learn how to compromise, how to get along... And for all it's flaws, democracy is currently the best system on offer.

It really is crackpot to suggest that giving a more parochial set of your acquaintances or co-patriots a vote will deliver instant karma. You can't agree with the most minimal of posters on here - how do you think changing the number of voters is going to serve you better?

"It will be our decision."

Poppycock.

[Stuart Dickson]

Of course the recent Scottish chancellors consulted the Scottish voters, before being told what to do by a London centric government and it's advisors.

Erm yes, they had to - otherwise one would presume they would have been voted out of office within their constituencies....after all that is how the Westminster system works unlike the rather undemocratic system in Holyrood where someone like Humza Yousaf can assume control of a ministerial position going through the regional list system having been rejected by his constituency voters.

[Stuart Dickson]

Yes of course we can.

I don't think we WILL and I'm not suggesting it would be a good or a bad decision but I keep coming back to this - it'll be OUR decision and not Westminster's.

This is about ownership of the decision making process - not about whether making a particular decision will be a good one or not.

People are getting hung up on the latter when the vote next year is about the former.

ETA: Not all decisions will be bad ones BTW. For those politicians who do make bad decisions, they are more likely to be held accountable by their Scottish voters if they do f**k up. At the moment they can butcher Scotland (e.g. the bedroom tax, the welfare cuts, the attack on the poor and disabled) with impunity and there's not a bloody thing we can do about it.

Someone somewhere can try to persuade me that it's a good thing that we can't do a single thing to stop a Tory government, which has not been voted for by our country, causing mayhem and wilful destruction on our people whenever they feel like it.

What a load of shite. How will they be held accountable in the Scottish system? If their constituents reject them they still get into parliament off the back of the list system. You need to be out and out stupid to think that your MSP is more accountable to the electorate than your MP And Scots could have prevented a conservative government from happening, as they have done in the past three General Elections had they voted exclusively for Labour and didn't waste their vote on the SNP and on the Lib Dems.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Stuart Dickson

[FTOF]

 

Erm yes, they had to - otherwise one would presume they would have been voted out of office within their constituencies....after all that is how the Westminster system works unlike the rather undemocratic system in Holyrood where someone like Humza Yousaf can assume control of a ministerial position going through the regional list system having been rejected by his constituency voters. 

No they did not. The only people consulted, who had little or no interest in Scotland's well being, were London centric politicians and advisors.