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Lanarkshire_Bud

Scottish Independence Referendum  

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BBC's Investment Expert this morning has stated on Breakfast Business News that Alex Salmond has cost Scotland £hundreds of millions of investment through the instability that has been caused through the referendum. He said it on the back of the news report about the BP guys comments decrying independence. Naga Manchetty looked slightly embarrassed and said "you can't say that" and he said "I absolutely can and I will!"

Oh dear.....another bad day for the Nats is brewing

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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The wording is difficult here though - it specifically says 'its geographic share of UK oil and gas' - but legally speaking - maritime boundaries are not based on geography, and are very much open for negotiation (and currently a reserved matter for the UK and not Scotland to legislate on), and you can bet your bottom dollar that Westminster would fight tooth and nail for an agreed share of oil and gas, and that Scotland (and I will say absolutely catagorically) will not get the full 100% of that in any post-independence agreement. And yes, it is perfectly legal for RUK to negotiate that, and Scotland legally cannot simply lay claim to it (although I would argue that certainly morally speaking they ought to be able to). A lot of people don't know that maritime boundaries were changed barely a decade ago already, so that as far north as Dundee (I am deadly serious), although when you look out you are initially looking at Scottish water, if you go out to still within visual distance barely a few hundred metres out, you're actually looking at English waters. So no - the article doesn't put an end to the debate I'm afraid - it's just one scenario that is definitely not a certainty.

Fair enough, but without North Sea income we're still ahead of many. And no-one's making a fuss about it, for all we know the FT figures could mean the current boundary when it talks about geographic boundaries.

For clarity, the part of the debate I was talking about was whether or not Scotland could (that word this time) be successful given current information. The answer to that, with or without North Sea revenue, is a resounding yes so from that point of view it can be said to be settled. None of us know what the future holds, whether together or apart.

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Well, that's bollocks, as I work in Scotland but don't have that vote.

But if I ever do decide to retire, I'll sell one of my small London places and can buy a big castle in the Glens. Then let the government pay for my care, cos wee Eck will let me still be a heavily subsidised Scot. smile.png

I've just spotted this piece, Bluto and it almost gave me the vapours. What a shock! Which one would you sell? I know you'll never part with Priory Park out by Epping Forest. It means so much to you with its rolling acres. If I could be so bold, what about Cheyne Walk? That bastard Bono's noisy parties would drive anybody to drink. And I don't suppose you'll see much of Nigella and Charles now. The flat in Upper Grosvenor Street is fantastic and the views from the rear are stunning but parking is a real bugger. I know it's none of my business but I wonder if this might be the one to go.

Really, though, what I'm getting round to is please. please don't sell your place at Henley. What will I do in July every year? I love the garden parties down by the jetty with your marquee beautifully decorated and when the lights come on at dusk it really is a sight to behold. And surely you won't sell the Sunseeker? Perish the thought!.No more watching the stunts of the folks in the punts going past.

I'm sure you and the good lady will make the right decision. Would you reconsider relocating to Scotland? Seems there could soon be some nice places going pretty cheaply.

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Fair enough, but without North Sea income we're still ahead of many. And no-one's making a fuss about it, for all we know the FT figures could mean the current boundary when it talks about geographic boundaries.

For clarity, the part of the debate I was talking about was whether or not Scotland could (that word this time) be successful given current information. The answer to that, with or without North Sea revenue, is a resounding yes so from that point of view it can be said to be settled. None of us know what the future holds, whether together or apart.

For me that's a major part of it , the key.........both sides are working on people's fear of the unkown. It's how each camp approaches this, sells it to the electorate, be bold , take control , or be a shitebag and continue to rant at the loathesome Westminster rule, cos it's an easy speen vent, it'll add grist to your daily mill. ??!! Anyway, irrespective of the outcome nowt will change over night, it'll take a generation.

What would be interesting though is if an Indie Scotland returned a Labour Govt................I think secretly Salmond would quite like that.

Anyway, today, still totally undecided...........saw a decent wee prog last night with Cosgrove and Scottishness, it was quite a thought provoking piece.

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For me that's a major part of it , the key.........both sides are working on people's fear of the unkown. It's how each camp approaches this, sells it to the electorate, be bold , take control , or be a shitebag and continue to rant at the loathesome Westminster rule, cos it's an easy speen vent, it'll add grist to your daily mill. ??!! Anyway, irrespective of the outcome nowt will change over night, it'll take a generation.

What would be interesting though is if an Indie Scotland returned a Labour Govt................I think secretly Salmond would quite like that.

Anyway, today, still totally undecided...........saw a decent wee prog last night with Cosgrove and Scottishness, it was quite a thought provoking piece.

What channel was that , Nipper. .

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If you're talking about the one I put the link up for, Rick, then you're wrong, I'm afraid - this is what is says, read it again if you don't believe me:

"If its geographic share of UK oil and gas output is taken into account, Scotland’s GDP per head is bigger than that of France. Even excluding the North Sea’s hydrocarbon bounty, per capita GDP is higher than that of Italy. Oil, whisky and a broad range of manufactured goods mean an independent Scotland would be one of the world’s top 35 exporters."

Not "could be," "is" - a blunt assertion that I hoped in vain would put an end to this particular aspect of the debate. As ts says, the FT is hardly noted for its pro-Nationalist stance.

I just don't think you're taking on board what I was really driving at. I came back at Tony Soprano's post when he said he couldn't understand why the Beeb hadn't picked up on this article. I still think if that's the best article to back up the SNP's argument, then pity help them. i suggested that anyone with an open mind reading that might be less than impressed. Take even the header:- 'Even the pro-unionists accept that the country has all the ingredients to be a viable nation state'. Can you quote one example of someone saying that Scotland wouldn't be viable? Of course Scotland will continue to be viable. Plenty have said that it might be poorer off but it's not going to declare itself bankrupt like Rangers and have to start all over again.

Referring now to the paragraph that you asked me to reread, I find it ironic that the first word in it is 'IF'. I posted on here a long time ago that the question of geographic share and maritime boundaries is an absolute minefield. Is that a pun? I probably need hardly mention it again now that za has covered it. I think anyone who thinks that the UK government will not fight as za suggests is deluded by auto suggestion.

Move on now to the next paragraph of the article, the one which starts off:- 'An independent Scotland COULD also expect' etc. Maybe it also couldn't.

Moving on, and bearing in mind we're still talking about the article I'm not very sure why they dredge up a seven year old statement by David Cameron. An MP saying one thing in opposition and another thing in government?Well, f**k me, that's a first! Remember too that Cameron went on to make the important point that Scotland has free access to a market of 60m. people just down the road.

The next paragraph starting 'Scotland's fiscal health' is I would have thought pretty depressing from a Nationalist point of view especially taking onboard the bunfight that will follow between governments over oil as mentioned above if there is a Yes vote.

James Knightley's contribution was effectively one negative comment for the Yes campaign and one positive.

Honestly, Salmonbuddie, my original comment about this article was really aimed at the level of journalism. The more you encouraged me to read it, the more I've come to believe if this is the kind of article you choose to highlight as helpful, I'd love to read what you think is anti.

Just to finish I'll refer again to James Knightley's piece where at the end of the first paragraph he uses the words 'far from clear'. For me that sums up the whole argument that Nationalists are putting up. They've not sold it to me (but then I don't count) and when it comes to the bit, I don't believe they will sell it to the Scottish people.

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Guest TPAFKATS

I just don't think you're taking on board what I was really driving at. I came back at Tony Soprano's post when he said he couldn't understand why the Beeb hadn't picked up on this article. I still think if that's the best article to back up the SNP's argument, then pity help them. i suggested that anyone with an open mind reading that might be less than impressed. Take even the header:- 'Even the pro-unionists accept that the country has all the ingredients to be a viable nation state'. Can you quote one example of someone saying that Scotland wouldn't be viable? Of course Scotland will continue to be viable. Plenty have said that it might be poorer off but it's not going to declare itself bankrupt like Rangers and have to start all over again.

Referring now to the paragraph that you asked me to reread, I find it ironic that the first word in it is 'IF'. I posted on here a long time ago that the question of geographic share and maritime boundaries is an absolute minefield. Is that a pun? I probably need hardly mention it again now that za has covered it. I think anyone who thinks that the UK government will not fight as za suggests is deluded by auto suggestion.

Move on now to the next paragraph of the article, the one which starts off:- 'An independent Scotland COULD also expect' etc. Maybe it also couldn't.

Moving on, and bearing in mind we're still talking about the article I'm not very sure why they dredge up a seven year old statement by David Cameron. An MP saying one thing in opposition and another thing in government?Well, f**k me, that's a first! Remember too that Cameron went on to make the important point that Scotland has free access to a market of 60m. people just down the road.

The next paragraph starting 'Scotland's fiscal health' is I would have thought pretty depressing from a Nationalist point of view especially taking onboard the bunfight that will follow between governments over oil as mentioned above if there is a Yes vote.

James Knightley's contribution was effectively one negative comment for the Yes campaign and one positive.

Honestly, Salmonbuddie, my original comment about this article was really aimed at the level of journalism. The more you encouraged me to read it, the more I've come to believe if this is the kind of article you choose to highlight as helpful, I'd love to read what you think is anti.

Just to finish I'll refer again to James Knightley's piece where at the end of the first paragraph he uses the words 'far from clear'. For me that sums up the whole argument that Nationalists are putting up. They've not sold it to me (but then I don't count) and when it comes to the bit, I don't believe they will sell it to the Scottish people.

Rick Im not going to attempt to engage in discussion concerning your whole post, not purely due to the length of it but because my sausage fingers couldn't handle it on the phone.

Suffice to say my concern re BBC is that they constantly run stories using ifs and coulds and maybes when supporting no campaign. This story from FT was stronger than most that they run every week, including the non story from the BP dude yesterday.

Of course they still refuse to acknowledge the UWS research re BBC being biased is accurate

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Guest TPAFKATS

BBC's Investment Expert this morning has stated on Breakfast Business News that Alex Salmond has cost Scotland £hundreds of millions of investment through the instability that has been caused through the referendum. He said it on the back of the news report about the BP guys comments decrying independence. Naga Manchetty looked slightly embarrassed and said "you can't say that" and he said "I absolutely can and I will!"

Oh dear.....another bad day for the Nats is brewing

Poor naive dicko

I notice this statement but there aren't any facts or evidence to substantiate...

It's the BBC, when will you learn...

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Rick Im not going to attempt to engage in discussion concerning your whole post, not purely due to the length of it but because my sausage fingers couldn't handle it on the phone.

Suffice to say my concern re BBC is that they constantly run stories using ifs and coulds and maybes when supporting no campaign. This story from FT was stronger than most that they run every week, including the non story from the BP dude yesterday.

Of course they still refuse to acknowledge the UWS research re BBC being biased is accurate

Fair do's, Tony. I wasn't defending the BBC, merely pointing out why I thought that particular article was barely newsworthy and poorly researched. There was nothing in it that none of us hadn't heard before. I rarely see the BBC news. I do hear Radio 4 current affairs fairly regularly. I'm neither pro nor anti the Beeb. The whole world criticises it at times.

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Your not trying to say that reporters/journalists for the BBC would try and discredit the Yes campaign, because Independence will reduce the amount of money that they receive down in London and will cost some of them jobs or reduced wages.

No... That would be like saying Scottish unionist mp's would be out of a job or their ex colleagues in the lords would be stripped of their ermine and allowances and this might cloud their opinions.
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No... That would be like saying Scottish unionist mp's would be out of a job or their ex colleagues in the lords would be stripped of their ermine and allowances and this might cloud their opinions.

Oh goody! I love a conspiracy theory. Not had one for a wee while.

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Fair do's, Tony. I wasn't defending the BBC, merely pointing out why I thought that particular article was barely newsworthy and poorly researched. There was nothing in it that none of us hadn't heard before. I rarely see the BBC news. I do hear Radio 4 current affairs fairly regularly. I'm neither pro nor anti the Beeb. The whole world criticises it at times.

FAO Bluto. OK, I've spotted a wee error in my third sentence! I stand corrected. Do you remember correction at school?

A self-cancelling triple negative. It's wee, alright.

Then again, most of your posts are pish. :P

(Wee Tam: his tawse: correction!)

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Your not trying to say that reporters/journalists for the BBC would try and discredit the Yes campaign, because Independence will reduce the amount of money that they receive down in London and will cost some of them jobs or reduced wages.

I've got to laugh at this shit.

Every time someone says something to discredit the Independence argument the nats move quickly to try to discredit them. It was happening yesterday with the guy from BP, and here we see it all over again with the BBC. The thing is if these major employers in Scotland are all saying they want a No vote isn't that in itself backing up the fact that big businesses are holding off investing in Scotland.

The Natsi squad are a bit too over eager to discredit. It's almost as thought they've been collectively studying Joseph Goebels propaganda handbook....:rolleyes:

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Think it was BBC 2 last night ................anyway

 

"Five Million Ways To Be Scottish, presented by broadcaster and journalist Stuart Cosgrove, will be available on the BBC iplayer until Tuesday, 11 February"

I thought it was quite good too. Will be on iplayer. Was the second episode in a series of 13. Didn't see the first one, but last night focused on identity and it's components for different individuals.

The 'concentric circles' idea was quite good. I'm not sure if this is a sad inditement of myself, but I'm sure there would be a St.Mirren circle in mine...perhaps replacing the British one others may feel...

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Oh goody! I love a conspiracy theory. Not had one for a wee while.

Indeed, although its not that far fetched esp when bearing in mind the reputation that our elected and indeed unelected members have with the populace.

Speaking out in favour would mean losing the whip and being deselected ahead of 2015 westminster election.

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I've got to laugh at this shit.

Every time someone says something to discredit the Independence argument the nats move quickly to try to discredit them. It was happening yesterday with the guy from BP, and here we see it all over again with the BBC. The thing is if these major employers in Scotland are all saying they want a No vote isn't that in itself backing up the fact that big businesses are holding off investing in Scotland.

The Natsi squad are a bit too over eager to discredit. It's almost as thought they've been collectively studying Joseph Goebels propaganda handbook....rolleyes.gif

So far we have a chap from BP giving his personal view that he likes the union...

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So far we have a chap from BP giving his personal view that he likes the union...

To be fair there are a fair number of major businesses opposed to the idea independence.

I'm acquainted with someone, who is financial director for a Scottish firm with a £50 million turnover, who works in these circles and he informs me that it is sheer greed that is the major influence for their stance, which is not unexpected.

The companies concerned are making a fortune out of Scotland. Behind the scenes they are planning ahead for the long term by working to adapt their business plans to help their companies grow in an independent Scotland. However, in public they prefer to talk about the short term and direct the focus on to how much money they might lose during the negotiation stage, if independence came about. The reality is that they may well take a financial hit, but not enough to put them out of business or to seriously dent their profits.

The good thing for Scotland is that many of these companies are either tied to Scotland, given the nature of their businesses, or they know that even after independence they would still make money out of us. So they'll moan a lot in media, but ultimately most would continue to contribute sizeable amounts to the Scottish economy.

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To be fair there are a fair number of major businesses opposed to the idea independence.

I'm acquainted with someone, who is financial director for a Scottish firm with a £50 million turnover, who works in these circles and he informs me that it is sheer greed that is the major influence for their stance, which is not unexpected.

The companies concerned are making a fortune out of Scotland. Behind the scenes they are planning ahead for the long term by working to adapt their business plans to help their companies grow in an independent Scotland. However, in public they prefer to talk about the short term and direct the focus on to how much money they might lose during the negotiation stage, if independence came about. The reality is that they may well take a financial hit, but not enough to put them out of business or to seriously dent their profits.

The good thing for Scotland is that many of these companies are either tied to Scotland, given the nature of their businesses, or they know that even after independence they would still make money out of us. So they'll moan a lot in media, but ultimately most would continue to contribute sizeable amounts to the Scottish economy.

There might only be the american dude from BP, there might be hundreds. All I am looking for is evidence that major employers in Scotland are all saying they want a No vote

I'm not naive enough to believe that all major employers want a YES vote. I'm also not going to insult the intelligence of my fellow buds on here by claiming it wink.png

I believe that an awful lot of employers and businesspersons wont declare a hand just now. They will be savvy enough to know that they may have to operate in an Independent Scotland or within UK in the future.

In the interest of balance though, here's a couple of quotes -

"Lets leave the ppl of Scotland to make determination. If I need to operate in 39 countries, rather than 38, that's what we'll do" - Tweet from Ross McEwan, Chief Executive RBS Jan 14

"There's certainly no sign of investors being deterred from coming to Scotland; if anything the reverse appears to be true" - Ernst & Young's 2013 UK attractiveness survey - Scotland

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There might only be the american dude from BP, there might be hundreds. All I am looking for is evidence that major employers in Scotland are all saying they want a No vote

I'm not naive enough to believe that all major employers want a YES vote. I'm also not going to insult the intelligence of my fellow buds on here by claiming it wink.png

I believe that an awful lot of employers and businesspersons wont declare a hand just now. They will be savvy enough to know that they may have to operate in an Independent Scotland or within UK in the future.

In the interest of balance though, here's a couple of quotes -

"Lets leave the ppl of Scotland to make determination. If I need to operate in 39 countries, rather than 38, that's what we'll do" - Tweet from Ross McEwan, Chief Executive RBS Jan 14

"There's certainly no sign of investors being deterred from coming to Scotland; if anything the reverse appears to be true" - Ernst & Young's 2013 UK attractiveness survey - Scotland

It doesn't take too much searching to find those against Independence. For example Iain McMillan of the CBI says he's 100% against Independence. He's challenged Alex Salmond to be open and honest about independence and he's put 170 questions to Salmond - none of which have been answered. Instead in a style we've all become familiar with Nicola Sturgeon responded claiming that Iain McMillan had also been against devolution and that he was regurgitating the same old scare stories. Also from the CBI in Scotland John Cridland said that the Bank Of England £50 note has a picture of James Watt and Matthew Boulton on it. He said they were a great partnership of Scottish and English engineering. He said he we can't say if either would have achieved much apart but that he knew absolutely that if you rip the £50 note in half both halves are not worth £25.00.

Real Business magazine polled Scottish small businesses and discovered that a massive 70% of small business leaders were planning to vote No in the referendum. Of those polled 60% said that they needed more information from the Yes Campaign as to what Independence would mean for them, something that continues to remain unanswered. Only 15% of those polled said they intend to vote in favour of Independence.

Alex Jackman of the Forum of Private Businesses claimed his members don't want Independence and stated that "if it wasn't broken why fix it"

There's loads more - just do a search on Google for business leaders who are against Independence and at the end of just about every quote you'll see some sort of smear or attack launched at the individual or the organisation by nationalists or worse by Nicola Sturgeon. She's going to be busy too because there are plenty more Bob Dudleys about to break cover over the coming months.

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It seems that one of his major worries is how long it would take for Scotland to be re-admitted to the EU. Strange that the Beeb has omitted this from their website, when I heard it quite clearly on the radio earlier today. It does not seem to have occurred to him that there is a strong possibility that rUK might not be in the EU in a few years time!

An in/out referendum is unlikely, and even if it does happen a British state would remain a major player in the European Markets.

A "nothing" comment expressing a personal opinion which appears to be pandering to "project fear".

What better way to deflect from the fact that BP's profits are down.

Also BP, as a company, are so scared of Scottish independence that they are doing this:

Source - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26028481

Emm... You do realise that Scotland won't be independent before 2016 regardless of the result of the vote, don't you? Therefore that renders your point totally irrelevant. There's nothing there about investment in an independent Scotland. In the unlikely horrible event of a yes vote Salmond himself is targeting an independence day of March 2016, the reality is it'd be much later.

The boss of BP can bash his gums all he wants - welcome to democracy.

He would however better serve his company by investing his time into making sure they stop getting fined for polluting the environment across our planet.

Most major businesses support a No vote? Most?

You'll be able to provide details of where greater than 50% of all major businesses are saying that.

Good luck finding 50%. There must be literally thousands of businesses in Scotland which can be classed as major.

Oh and you might want to address why his fear is so great that he's investing billions of pounds in the North Sea anyway as raised above.

Several. Here's Ralph Soames, head of billion turn over major Glasgow based firm Aggreko speaking out against intimidation by the SNP after he spoke out in favour of the union.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9694537/Alex-Salmond-should-allow-business-leaders-to-speak-out-against-independence.html

Other prominent business leaders who favour a no vote include Duncan Ballantyne, Michelle Mone, head of the CBI John Cridland and Royal Mail chairman Donald Brydon. How many would you like? Business wants the union. Workers want the union. Scotland wants the union.

The only trade union that openly supports the no campaign is the GMB and this was done without consulting their members , all other trade unions are staying neutral .

That's simply incorrect i'm afraid. The steelworkers union recently came out in favour of the union: http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/steelworkers-union-back-better-together

Other unions supporting the union include NUM, Usdaw and Aslef.

There's not often that business and unions unite to this extent over any political issue, they have here though. The business bosses feel it's in their interests, the workers feel it's in theirs too. Can they both be wrong?

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