The Referendum Thread

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I hate msn but I thought this might be relevant . .

http://money.uk.msn.com/features/how-households-would-be-affected-by-scottish-independence

Some scarily ignorant comments to that article- make dicko appear (almost) well informed.

[pozbaird]

Seems obvious to me. The Panda is suggesting that potential "No" voters will have to take a leap of faith, as the Unionist camp is unwilling to specify its plans for Scotland in a continuing UK. The SNP is continually being castigated for not giving details of their plans. It needs pointing out to the No camp that Yes Scotland represents not only the SNP, but many others who think that Scotland would be better on its own. Their is absolutely no guarantee that the SNP will form a government in an independent Scotland.

I don't buy into that, sorry. Voting for independence requires a leap of faith and it may well turn out fine, I don't know. Voting to retain the union will surely not see many 'no' voters doing so while thinking to themselves 'Well, here goes nothing, hope this union thing works out!'

You cannot seriously be suggesting that, can you?

[saintnextlifetime]

I don't buy into that, sorry. Voting for independence requires a leap of faith and it may well turn out fine, I don't know. Voting to retain the union will surely not see many 'no' voters doing so while thinking to themselves 'Well, here goes nothing, hope this union thing works out!'

You cannot seriously be suggesting that, can you?

TBF poz, if we get another government like the Thatcher one , post '79 , then we could be in for a rough ride and perhaps some more asset stripping from our trusted auld neebour. .

[bluto]

Maybe not but there IS a "u" in c**t.

No, wrong again.

There's no 'u' , but there's two asterisks in c**t, you stupid cunt.

[Bart Simpson]

Scotland’s referendum on 18 September 2014 is a choice between two futures.

If we vote Yes, we take the next step on Scotland’s journey. We will move forward with confidence, ready to make the most of the many opportunities that lie ahead. The most important decisions about our economy and society will be taken by the people who care most about Scotland, that is by the people of Scotland. The door will open to a new era for our nation.

Scotland’s future will be in Scotland’s hands.

If we vote No, Scotland stands still. A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation, is lost. Decisions about Scotland would remain in the hands of others.

We, the people who live here, have the greatest stake in making Scotland a success. With independence we can make Scotland the fairer and more successful country we all know it should be. We can make Scotland’s vast wealth and resources work much better for everyone in our country, creating a society that reflects our hopes and ambition. Being independent means we will have a government that we choose – a government that always puts the people of Scotland first.

This is what being independent can deliver for Scotland and it is why the Scottish Government believes the people of Scotland, individually and collectively, will be better off with independence.

[Vambo57]

Who can add facts? Not me, not you, not StuDick, not Oaksoft... not Salmond, not Cameron, not Osbourne, not Barosso, not anyone.

It's all conjecture, what ifs and maybes. As Drew put it - he's willing to take a leap of faith.

I feel many 'yes' voters will feel the same way. Deep breath, say a prayer to your God of choice, close your eyes, say three Hail Marys and two Hello Dollys..... then with a trembling hand plunge that 'X' into the 'yes' box.

Facts? In this debate? I'd love some!

The post above by Bart is full of facts Poz!

The biggest facts for me, being:

After a YES vote, who the Scottish people vote for in a General Election will actually be our government and not at the whim of middle-England

Edited February 24, 2014 by Vambo57

[bluto]

The post above by Bart is full of facts Poz!The biggest facts for me, being:After a YES vote, who the Scottish people vote for in a General Election will actually be our government and not at the whim of middle-England

And the people in the Highlands and Islands will be similarly appalled by the fact their votes would then be at the whim of Central Scotland.

They don't want THAT democracy, either.

I know how it feels. For years I voted in

1 Winston Churchill's old constituency and now...

2. For years I have been voting in Tebbit/IDS's constituency.

My vote never mattered. It never would. Democracy is not perfect.

I assuaged my angst by happily voting for the GLC's Ken Livingstone, on occasion.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

However, our voting system up here in jockland is more representative bluto.

[bluto]

However, our voting system up here in jockland is more representative bluto.

That's good.

It will be nice to see a perfect democracy.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

That's good.

It will be nice to see a perfect democracy.

Mibees you'd like to define that, oh and while you're at it also point out where I said it was perfect?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Highlands and Islands is a large disparate area with different voting patterns in for example western and northern Isles. They don't tend to vote for the red or blue tories though, so you could say that they have been well represented in Scottish Parliament...

[bluto]

However, our voting system up here in jockland is more representative bluto.

Mibees you'd like to define that, oh and while you're at it also point out where I said it was perfect?

Maybe you'd first like to define why "more representative" is a cure-all for sectors of society who like to whinge when they don't get what they want by voting?

The polls to get rid of DL on here would be as effective as separation, I expect. The underlying realities will thrust their way through.

[bluto]

Highlands and Islands is a large disparate area with different voting patterns in for example western and northern Isles. They don't tend to vote for the red or blue tories though, so you could say that they have been well represented in Scottish Parliament...

You could say that, couldn't you?

Well represented is possibly meaningless, as Eck gripes even when there have been 41 (?) Scottish labour MPs and Scottish PMs and cabinet ministers. My point is, (and always has been) that you can't just blame an electoral system for problems of scale, economics and power. Changing the colour of wheels on the wagon won't make it run smoother.

Like people outside London blaming it for all their ills, the Central Belt gets a similar dislike from other parts of Scotland.

Edited February 24, 2014 by bluto

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I said neither cure all or perfect, it is more representative of voting than the Westminster version though so it is an improvement.

[bluto]

I said neither cure all or perfect, it is more representative of voting than the Westminster version though so it is an improvement.

So you'd forego all 'independence' aspirations if the UK adopted the Scottish voting system cos it was an improvement?

Or does vambo's "whim of middle England's" voters still sick in the craw?

[Stuart Dickson]

TBF poz, if we get another government like the Thatcher one , post '79 , then we could be in for a rough ride and perhaps some more asset stripping from our trusted auld neebour. .

Oh FFS - aye a really rough ride like being allowed to purchase your council house at a massive discount boosting your families personal wealth by tens of thousands of pounds or like a reforming government who realises that Scotland are not competitive any more in manufacturing in the traditional heavy industries and seeks investment in new modern technologies for the Scottish workforce instead. Perhaps you should remember that the current Scottish Government - not the UK government - is the one who is stripping Scottish public assets by encouraging Scottish Councils to sell off council owned assets to help balance the books.

Anyway I like the assertion that an Independent Scotland would manage to avoid voting a conservative government into power.

Take a look back over facts from past Westminster elections and you'll find that prior to a growth in the Independence movement Scotland was very much a conservative voting country. Indeed it's very clear that the only reason Labour support became so strong in Scotland is because the SNP started to split the Conservative vote whilst having absolutely no effect on the Labour vote.

For example in 1951 and 1955 Scotland elected 35 and 36 Conservative MP's to Westminster. Those same years Scotland was represented by 35 and 34 Labour MP's while the Liberal Party took the only other seat. In the last Westminster election Scotland elected 41 Labour MP's, 1 Conservative, 11 Lib Dems, and 6 SNP. Now if you assume that post Independence the single policy party - the SNP - will no longer hold any relevance, who is there to split the central right vote? It could even be argued that post Independence there would be much more chance that the Scots would elect a Scottish version of David Cameron to office than is the case in the Union.

Anyway, I thought it was the No campaign that was supposed to be "Project Fear" - your post is ridiculous scaremongering on an unprecedented scale. :rolleys:

Edited February 24, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

The post above by Bart is full of facts Poz!

The biggest facts for me, being:

After a YES vote, who the Scottish people vote for in a General Election will actually be our government and not at the whim of middle-England

Ahem, Barts posts was reasonably factual until he got to the wattery eyed romantism view of a future Scotland. Where he deviated was when he claimed that an Independent Scotland could be more successful than a Scotland within the UK Union. We don't know that for certain at all. All we do know is that to be more successful as an Independent country than we have been in the Union we would have to achieve a very high bar.

Now look at Hollyrood currently. Can you see the kind of political talent that can deliver that successful Scotland?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So you'd forego all 'independence' aspirations if the UK adopted the Scottish voting system cos it was an improvement?

Or does vambo's "whim of middle England's" voters still sick in the craw?

No, I like the idea of our wee country governing itself- asopposed to decisions being made in and at the behest of what is best for the city state of London.

[Stuart Dickson]

I said neither cure all or perfect, it is more representative of voting than the Westminster version though so it is an improvement.

How though?

The Westminster system allows every single one of us to elect a single representative to go and fight for us in Westminster. If I've got an issue I'd like discussed at Westminster I have a single constituency office where I can go and see Frank Roy, or his assistant, where I can air my gripe. If he ignores it then I don't vote for him at the next election, if he deals with it he might get a shock and I might vote for him for the first time in my life.

Compare that with Scotland where I'm asked for a first, second, third and so on choice. The votes will be counted, candidates eliminated, and at the end of the whole thing I'll land up with a MSP that represents me directly and then another group of MSP's who don't represent me at all and who instead represent the party who were perhaps everyone's second choice or even third choice. It gets even worse in practice because, as I've continually pointed out, that if the list MSP who is representing their party on the basis of them having got enough second and third choice votes then fall out with the party they represent and resign the whip they can continue in their role as an MSP representing no-one but themselves and yet having a vote on absolutely everything.

Now I know the Westminster voting system isn't perfect but the Scottish hybrid is a f**king joke on every single level. It's not even proportional representation because the SNP didn't get an outright majority in terms of votes cast yet they have a majority government.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Shoosh, dicko! The adults are talking.

[Stuart Dickson]

Shoosh, dicko! The adults are talking.

No answer then? Running scared? I suppose this is what you mean by "Project Fear" and "Unionist Bullying"

[bluto]

Bob Mortimer has a point.

https://twitter.com/RealBobMortimer/status/437677592389644288/photo/1

Shame it's on Twitter.

oaky won't deign to have a gander....

[pozbaird]

I genuinely have no grouse with Alex Salmond, but see if he calls Aberdeen 'Eh-berr-deen' one more time, I might just nip up to 'Eh-berr-deen' and give him a slap in the pus.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I was hoping someone could provide names for that line up. Initially thought it was a new romantic beat combo, then I recognised clegg & Boris.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

No answer then? Running scared? I suppose this is what you mean by "Project Fear" and "Unionist Bullying"

There's nothing to say. You rant on like a petulant child, but didn't manage to address the point I made with 2 lines.