The Referendum Thread

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Came across this piece in today's Herald.

Interesting to see how the common people in the rest of the world regard Scotland's bid for independence.

Inside Track: Thoughts on independence from the worldly wise

David Pratt

Foreign Editor, Sunday Herald

Wednesday 5 March 2014

I've been spending a lot of time on the road of late.

Over the past months I have journeyed in Africa, Latin America and recently returned to Bosnia whose bitter war during the break-up of the former Yugoslavia I covered back in the 1990s.

Last month I was sitting in a restaurant at Nairobi airport with a colleague, when an elderly Dutch couple approached our table. They had, it turned out, been on a Kenyan safari holiday.

"Forgive me, but I couldn't help overhearing your accent," said the man by way of an introduction before continuing.

"I just thought I'd wish you luck with the vote for independence in Scotland's forthcoming referendum."

When I asked what made him think I would be voting Yes, the man gave me a puzzled look before throwing the question back at me: "Why wouldn't you? It's a wonderful opportunity for Scotland," he insisted.

It wasn't the first or indeed last time that I've heard such pro-independence sentiments expressed in far-flung places. Indeed, many of the places where this has been most vociferous, have been those where - for understandable reasons - you might expect the very words independence or separatism to give people pause for thought or wariness.

South Sudan is the world's youngest nation, having only achieved its independence from the Republic of Sudan's northern rulers in Khartoum in 2011. Recently while in the capital, Juba, I listened as some men laid out their reasoning with an incredible grasp of the issues at the heart of the Scottish independence debate, as to why they thought it good for Scotland to vote Yes.

Not only was I amazed by their knowledge of the case for and against, but the fact too that this discussion was happening in a country still struggling with tensions that have brewed since its own separation from a large powerful neighbour of which it was once part.

Likewise, while in Bosnia a few weeks ago as part of a charity initiative delegation to learn from the lessons of the Srebrenica massacre and genocide, I was consistently quizzed on my view of Scottish independence. What struck me most about these Bosnian encounters was that even here, in a European country that faces continuing difficulties as a result of the war and subsequent political division of the nation into two entities under the Dayton Accord, Bosnians I met almost unanimously thought Scottish independence a positive thing.

From Juba to Bosnia and beyond, three things have struck me about the Scottish independence issue. The first is that whatever the resonance of the debate here, there is no doubt that it has now caught the imagination of people globally.

The second is that even in countries all too familiar with the risks and costs that political separation brings, the anecdotal evidence suggests people still think it a cause we Scots should embrace. Viewed through the prism of such people and their experiences, the ludicrous scaremongering that has been a hallmark of the debate within the UK can be seen for the nonsense that it is. If such people are not afraid, why should we Scots be?

[/. The work force within the company I work for are from all parts of the globe and is in keeping with the above. When I tell them it's not a forgone conclusion they are very surprised to hear this. I try to explain there are a lot of scare mongering going on with the UK parties. But how any working class Scot can fathom another 10 years of a Tory government is beyond me wheel the same voters can't grasp the hostilities that are coming our way in regard of UK debt the numbers are mind boggling. Here a UK government that keeps putting our young men in to war zones. I don't believe it's because you love the UK it's more to do with being frightened of the unknown no one is better at looking after our interests better than local people. A private post office up next how are Scots who live in rural communities tell me what kind of service they can expect. If you think that's the last of privatisation you had better wake up with a Tory government . 18 months of negotiation after the vote. You think for one moment businesses down south are going to want increased costs because Scotland won't be aloud the pound. No chance. So why won't they let us have the pound ? There words is because we are not going to bail you out if your banks get in to trouble yet the UK government pumped money in to Southern Irish banks , Icelandic banks , you have to ask yourself why because banks everywhere lend to each other so if one fails so does another and another and another. Do you think the Uk and EU pump money into banks out with thief own county for the good of it. No simply because they are all interlinked Globalisation in other words The UK government are trying to scare Scots it's working along with some selfish 80"a thinking. Alex Salmond could have been a bit better organised in my opinion with his stratagy still that won't stop me voting YES

[bluto]

Erm.... LS?

They PUMP money into other economies Banks to make a plump profit out of them. They wouldn't care if the people in those countries have a shite time - but their governments do, so they borrow at expensive rates - and pay back over a long time.

[Stuart Dickson]

Why did you not take issue with this racist Texan?

If I experienced such virtriol and hatred in front of my family I'd have no option but to tell them that their behaviour is offensive.

They have a right to carry arms in the US and this guy certainly looked like the sort that would have one. Courage is fine when you don't have a family to keep safe

[Charlotte Saint]

They have a right to carry arms in the US and this guy certainly looked like the sort that would have one. Courage is fine when you don't have a family to keep safe

i'm sure you'll tell me i'm wrong but the right to bear arms in the US doesn't mean that people are allowed to carry them around with them in their pockets.

Nobody will think less of you if you admit you sh*t it.

[FTOF]

i'm sure you'll tell me i'm wrong but the right to bear arms in the US doesn't mean that people are allowed to carry them around with them in their pockets.

Nobody will think less of you if you admit you sh*t it.

Or he admits he made it up.

We've come to expect that.

[Bud Bundy]

No doubt about it. I knew he had posted more than the three of us put together because I've him on ignore and they show up easily. Have you noticed how often he posts two or three posts on the trot? I think he talks to himself. Explains a lot.

Wee Cabal of Unionist Fcukwht Pish going on Here ! London calling ?

[Bud Bundy]

That is a belter right enough. Another of the Rule Britannia contestants whose specialist subject was the bleeding obvious.- Fcking Day Queen believer, And a shit football team ?

[Stuart Dickson]

i'm sure you'll tell me i'm wrong but the right to bear arms in the US doesn't mean that people are allowed to carry them around with them in their pockets.

Nobody will think less of you if you admit you sh*t it.

• All states allow some form of concealed carry, the carrying of a concealed firearm in public.
• Many states allow some form of open carry, the carrying of an unconcealed firearm in public on one's person or in a vehicle.

Edit to add - that is from the Wikipedia page on the Bill of Rights.

The incident happened one year to the day after we had been in Orlando when a former Disney employee lost his case against his former employees because they sacked him after he tried to enter the theme parks with a pistol in his possession. He claimed they had denied him his rights as a US Citizen.

Yeah I shit it. Getting out of the lift seemed like a good call.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

If you can make up words when you feel like it......

[saintnextlifetime]

"No one should be under any illusion that voting for independence means getting independence, which means becoming a new country outside the UK”

David Mundell

Scotland Office minister

Another intellectual heavyweight weighs into the debate....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26424658

David Mundell , aye , you would never know that he is a major Tory f**kwit until he opens his Unionist gob. .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Aye well I've found you need to be careful when venturing worldwide about why people think Scotland should have independence.

Three years ago now I took the family on a trip to Hawai'i. O'Ahu to be exact. One night in the lift we were in was a BIG Texan. He had the hat and cowboy boots - real comic strip stuff. Anyway he heard us talking and got all excited. "You need to vote for Independence" he said. "We in Texas have wanted independence for decades now but that Muslim bastard Obama won't give us it. You need independence so you can rid yourself of all them niggers"

Fortunately at that point the lift doors opened and the four of us got out of the lift. We weren't even on the right floor.

Last October my son and I were in Florida - Tampa to be exact - at the Buccaneers game. We had a brilliant time in amongst some really friendly people most of whom were chatting away to us. Of course many of them had Scottish or Irish "in them" whatever that means. One guy clearly didn't like us much though. Turns out Kenny McAskill is a fanny - so therefore so are all Scots.

So in summary, you met two Americans, at separate times and in different states, and they were both racist.

Good input...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

David Mundell , aye , you would never know that he is a major Tory f**kwit until he opens his Unionist gob. .

Indeed. In his herald interview he basically acknowledges that UK gov will rip up Edinburgh agreement in event of yes vote.

[Bud Bundy]

So in summary, you met two Americans, at separate times and in different states, and they were both racist.

Good input...

In a nutshell, You believe Dickson is a Master debater ?

[Stuart Dickson]

So in summary, you met two Americans, at separate times and in different states, and they were both racist.

Good input...

The point is that it's a pretty silly argument to put forward that we should either vote or not vote for Independence cause some people from far off countries have an opinion, especially when the journalist hasn't spoken to them long enough to know if they have an agenda.

Certainly on this thread Sean Connery and David Bowie were lampooned for their opinions - so why should we blindly follow the opinion of someone from the Netherlands or from the Sudan.

[saintnextlifetime]

Indeed. In his herald interview he basically acknowledges that UK gov will rip up Edinburgh agreement in event of yes vote.

TBH , I always expected that there would be something like that lined up . England has never given up any of her possessions without a fight . .

Prior to the signing of the Union in 1707 , Daniel Defoe was here , working as a spy to let the British government know what would happen and they had an army just over the border in case the Lords didn't sign or in case there were any public unrest after the signing. .

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Erm.... LS?

They PUMP money into other economies Banks to make a plump profit out of them. They wouldn't care if the people in those countries have a shite time - but their governments do, so they borrow at expensive rates - and pay back over a long time.

Erm.... LS?

They PUMP money into other economies Banks to make a plump profit out of them. They wouldn't care if the people in those countries have a shite time - but their governments do, so they borrow at expensive rates - and pay back over a long time.

Bluto , Make no mistake if banks and governments in Greece, Spain, Ireland, Iceland were not bailed out the banking system in Europe would have collapsed. That's why I wrote if one falls many more fall because they are all inter connected through loans to each other. The banking system at that time was a joke and probably it's like a pack of cards one falls others fall also unless governments can bail them out. Governments did not throw money to them to make money it's because they had to for their own interests to protect their citizen's savings.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Lochwinnoch Saint

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The point is that it's a pretty silly argument to put forward that we should either vote or not vote for Independence cause some people from far off countries have an opinion, especially when the journalist hasn't spoken to them long enough to know if they have an agenda.

Certainly on this thread Sean Connery and David Bowie were lampooned for their opinions - so why should we blindly follow the opinion of someone from the Netherlands or from the Sudan.

Maybe that's a question you should ask of the BBC and other media who are slavishly reporting that Ben van Burden, the chief exec of Shell, that's Royal Dutch Shell, thinks we should vote No...

[bluto]

Bluto , Make no mistake if banks and governments in Greece, Spain, Ireland, Iceland were not bailed out the banking system in Europe would have collapsed. That's why I wrote if one falls many more fall because they are all inter connected through loans to each other. The banking system at that time was a joke and probably it's like a pack of cards one falls they others fall also unless governments can bail them out. Governments did not throw money to them to make money it's because they had to for their own interests to protect their citizen's savings.

I agree.

And that's why I wrote about the poor people in those countries paying for the bail-out.

Scotland's banks can certainly fail and be rescued/subsidised/bailed out and I know who will pay the price.

It's never a benign government that pays. Eck does not have a bottomless sporran.

[bluto]

Maybe that's a question you should ask of the BBC and other media who are slavishly reporting that Ben van Burden, the chief exec of Shell, that's Royal Dutch Shell, thinks we should vote No...

Mind you BvB (I recognise that name... )is possibly more relevant to Scotland's future than Connery, Bowie, a wee nederlander, a Sudanese or a Texan in a lift.

Edited March 6, 2014 by bluto

[salmonbuddie]

I agree.

And that's why I wrote about the poor people in those countries paying for the bail-out.

Scotland's banks can certainly fail and be rescued/subsidised/bailed out and I know who will pay the price.

It's never a benign government that pays. Eck does not have a bottomless sporran.

I do feel sorry for the poor people of the US having to bail out an English bank.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4895234

Surely we can finally put this particular myth to bed instead of constantly going round in circles.

[Vambo57]

I'm going to Amsterdam for 6 months on 2nd September this year.

Can I still vote somehow despite not being in the country?

A Postal Proxy?

I agree.

And that's why I wrote about the poor people in those countries paying for the bail-out.

Scotland's banks can certainly fail and be rescued/subsidised/bailed out and I know who will pay the price.

It's never a benign government that pays. Eck does not have a bottomless sporran.

Eck? Eck?

How many times? The Referendum vote is not for a person or party. It is Yes or No to being Independent. Or maybe you knew that and think the SNP would win the Scottish General Elections AFTER the Referendum on Scottish Indepenedence?

[Maboza]

I'm going to Amsterdam for 6 months on 2nd September this year.

Can I still vote somehow despite not being in the country?

You will be able to vote if you are still registered as living in Scotland, on the electoral roll and with the council for council tax purposes.

If you are not fulfilling the criteria above and instead registering officially (even for 6 months) as a resident in Amsterdam then you will not be able to vote.

[bluto]

Eck? Eck?

How many times? The Referendum vote is not for a person or party. It is Yes or No to being Independent. Or maybe you knew that and think the SNP would win the Scottish General Elections AFTER the Referendum on Scottish Indepenedence?

My apologies. I should never have brought Eck into this - he didnae do anything. I think it was big boy who then ran away....

I simply thought puerile jokes and comments could be made about any personality however remotely involved with the process/discussion, not just Cameron, daft Tory MPs, Texans and Dixon.

Didnae know there were rules and exclusions.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

That's harsh. I don't think there's been any purile posts about Texans...yet.

[smcc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26475169

News of a leak from a test nuclear submarine engine at Dounreay.

Scottish Veterans Minister Keith Brown said it was unacceptable the Scottish government had not been told until now.

As a result of the radioactive discovery at the Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment at Dounreay, the nuclear submarine HMS Vanguard is to be refuelled with a new nuclear core at a cost of £120m.

The MoD has said that the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (Sepa) and the defence nuclear inspectorate had been kept informed since the summer of 2012.

But Mr Brown said Sepa had been asked "not to make this information more widely known for security reasons".

He added: "It is totally unacceptable that for almost two years the UK government failed to notify Scottish Ministers on such an important issue.

"The Ministry of Defence, who are responsible for the regulation of operations and safety at Vulcan, informed Sepa of this situation in the summer of 2012 and requested that they were not to make this information more widely known for security reasons.

"Sepa's role is to highlight potential for adverse wider environmental impact and I can reassure the public that they have not identified any, but will continue to closely monitor the situation.

"UK Defence Minister Philip Dunne eventually notified (Scottish Environment Secretary) Richard Lochhead of the situation shortly in advance of the UK government's parliamentary statement today.

"There is no excuse for UK Ministers not picking up the phone and alerting us to this situation two years ago and I have today written to Philip Hammond seeking an early meeting to ensure such disrespect is never shown again."

Does anyone want to continue to be governed by a London government which did not release the information to SEPA till 6 months after the leak was discovered and then told SEPA to keep it under its hat for "security reasons"?