The Referendum Thread

[faraway saint]

I do, it's important.

Am I one of the 4/5 you talk about? Don't mind if I am, as long as no-one thinks I'm StuD, that really would be too far.....

I'm certainly not trying to diminish the importance but it's descended into a personal battle, with the issue becoming secondary.

Just my view, from the outside.

[salmonbuddie]

Yep, it's one of the reasons I've backed off a bit and only throw in the odd contribution now and again. Like the one above - there are scary people out there.

I'm sure there are equally scary people on the Yes side but no-one's pointed them out yet....

[Stuart Dickson]

Its a micro example of how the Yes / No debate is going IMO and it's how any debate on TV is going to look too.

I blame Alex Salmond - I would I suppose - but it's the tone he's set. Evidence is produced but because he doesn't want to discuss it you get a sneer with him rubbishing the evidence raised. I don't see that happening from the No side.

I think the same thing happens on this thread. I'd love to see some proper discussion around the various issues and news articles but the Natsis on here would rather talk about eggs. It's a shame really

[Guest TPAFKATS]

What a poor attempt at fishing.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Could anyone on here explain what the hell red (?) ed miliband was on about when he came to lunch in Edinburgh yesterday.

[Stuart Dickson]

Maybe if you tried discussing things instead of just posting lies and hiding when you are found out, then you might be taken seriously when you accuse others of not discussing things. As for "the eggs", that would have been dropped long ago if you just had the ability to admit that you were wrong.

That's just a Natsi lie - I've never hidden in my life.

[FTOF]

That's just a Natsi lie - I've never hidden in my life.

No f**king wonder.

There isn't an object big enough for you to hide behind.

[groucho]

Not received one of these yet .

This ridiculous piece of government propaganda is currently being pushed through every door in Scotland at the cost of £750,000 of taxpayers' money. It is a tissue of lies from start to finish and an insult to the intelligence of the Scottish people

http://jimfairlie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/750000-of-uk-government-lies.html

[bluto]

Ok, it's a pro-Yes website, and biased, but think about who you're voting with if you're voting No.http://wingsoverscotland.com/zero-tolerance/

Wow.

George Orwell would be hugely impressed by that shameless piece of doublethink.

It appears that the only people on earth NOT guilty of intolerance and racism are... Nationalists.

[Stuart Dickson]

Not received one of these yet .

This ridiculous piece of government propaganda is currently being pushed through every door in Scotland at the cost of £750,000 of taxpayers' money. It is a tissue of lies from start to finish and an insult to the intelligence of the Scottish people

http://jimfairlie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/750000-of-uk-government-lies.html

I haven't seen one yet either.

I would agree that these campaign brochure things are a waste of taxpayers money though and if they have to be sent out at all they should be sent at the cost of the political parties and not the taxpayer. What I would point out thought is that the UK document - if the figures are accurate - has cost every UK resident £0.01. According to this newspaper article this morning the Yes Campaign have responded with a similar campaign which will cost every Scottish resident £0.14

[TopCat]

I haven't seen one yet either.

I would agree that these campaign brochure things are a waste of taxpayers money though and if they have to be sent out at all they should be sent at the cost of the political parties and not the taxpayer. What I would point out thought is that the UK document - if the figures are accurate - has cost every UK resident £0.01. According to this newspaper article this morning the Yes Campaign have responded with a similar campaign which will cost every Scottish resident £0.14

What a ridiculous waste of money. I assume all the yes campaigners will be condemning this too.

[Stuart Dickson]

Wow.

George Orwell would be hugely impressed by that shameless piece of doublethink.

It appears that the only people on earth NOT guilty of intolerance and racism are... Nationalists.

You need to remember that Stewart Campbell - the author of that Wings Over Scotland article - once wrote on a games forum ‘I hope you get cancer and that your cancer gets AIDS and that you and your entire family die of being raped to death by rabid wolves in the middle of a choking chemical fire. Know what else? 9/11 was brilliant. I watched it all on TV and I laughed the whole time.’

He also, in an angry exchange with the sister of Hillsborough victim Thomas Fox that "If people stop when they get to a wall of human beings instead of ramming it, nobody dies.’ He accused other Liverpool fans of being ‘c***s’.

Now I know each side has their extremists but there aren't many No extremists who's website gets linked to in official campaign literature in the same way Wings Over Scotland has been advertised through the SNP literature. Hypocrisy is something the Yes Campaign has done really well.....

The good news for all Scots though is that Stewart Campbell has also said that if the country votes No he's had it with Scotland and he's going to f**k off somewhere else. Good news peeps - you know what to do.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Context is everything...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

What a ridiculous waste of money. I assume all the yes campaigners will be condemning this too.

Don't be silly Lex.

you will note that the liar stated that it was literature produced by the YES campaign. The YES campaign isn't funded through taxation. The uk government on the other hand...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So how's that big weekend going in Stirling? Genuine question, the bbc had no coverage of the Bannockburn event on their news earlier!

[salmonbuddie]

Wow.

George Orwell would be hugely impressed by that shameless piece of doublethink.

It appears that the only people on earth NOT guilty of intolerance and racism are... Nationalists.

That's disingenuous, bluto, you're better than that - I also said

I'm sure there are equally scary people on the Yes side but no-one's pointed them out yet....

Feel free to fill in the gaps, I know you hope to help.

Edited June 28, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[Stuart Dickson]

Don't be silly Lex.

you will note that the liar stated that it was literature produced by the YES campaign. The YES campaign isn't funded through taxation. The uk government on the other hand...

Ah - I thought you'd say that.

See thing is you forgot about this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26528814

The White Paper was issued by the Scottish Government, funded by the Scottish Taxpayer at a cost of 25p for each resident living in Scotland - that's 25 times MORE than that the UK Government literature cost each UK resident. And as the campaign has shown the White Paper has proven to nothing more than a list of lies, false assumptions, and fantasy figures that haven't been costed yet. Indeed it makes my posts on here look well researched and supremely accurate.

Oh aye, edited to add, it seems I was wrong about it being a Yes Campaign brochure that Alex Salmond and co were planning too - it's a Scottish Government one instead so that's another 14p per Scottish Resident wasted on tomorrows toilet paper.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

So how's that big weekend going in Stirling? Genuine question, the bbc had no coverage of the Bannockburn event on their news earlier!

According to the STV website the MOD reckons that somewhere between 35,000 and 50,000 attended Armed Forces Day, and the Courier has the figure at Bannockburn at 10,000 with Visit Scotland claiming ALL 10,000 tickets sold out by early afternoon.

When Bannockburn Live was first proposed the capacity for the event was supposed to be 45,000 for each of the initially planned THREE days. Then after disappointing ticket sales that was slashed to 20,000 for each of just TWO days. According to all the major news networks 20,000 tickets were still on sale two days ago but somehow the event became "sold out" when they hit 10,000 if you believe the spin.

[FTOF]

Not content with staging an event that allows guns to be put into children's hands and treating war as some sort of circus, they've managed to ignore the rules on non-politicising of the armed forces.

Desperate times indeed for the unionists.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/westminster-propaganda-war-to-encourage-armed-forces-to-vote-no.24607959

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Ah - I thought you'd say that.

See thing is you forgot about this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26528814

The White Paper was issued by the Scottish Government, funded by the Scottish Taxpayer at a cost of 25p for each resident living in Scotland - that's 25 times MORE than that the UK Government literature cost each UK resident. And as the campaign has shown the White Paper has proven to nothing more than a list of lies, false assumptions, and fantasy figures that haven't been costed yet. Indeed it makes my posts on here look well researched and supremely accurate.

Oh aye, edited to add, it seems I was wrong about it being a Yes Campaign brochure that Alex Salmond and co were planning too - it's a Scottish Government one instead so that's another 14p per Scottish Resident wasted on tomorrows toilet paper.

So that's two untruths you've admitted to in the previous post that I referrenced.

Well done ya fanny!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The MOd might well be quoting many thousands attending armed forces day. Anecdotally, people are talking around 2000 tops for the free event.

I caught a bit from stv last night and from there camera angles there no where near the numbers quoted by the ministry.

A bit of background on the build up to the big weekend. Police Scotland demanded that the capacity for Bannockburn be reduced as they couldn't resource both this and Armed forces day on the same day in the same place. You'll recall that uk gov decided to make armed forces day this weekend in Stirling after the Bannockburn event had been announced.

[Stuart Dickson]

So that's two untruths you've admitted to in the previous post that I referrenced.

Well done ya fanny!

Still no condemnation of the waste of taxpayers money? Shame on you

[Stuart Dickson]

The MOd might well be quoting many thousands attending armed forces day. Anecdotally, people are talking around 2000 tops for the free event.

I caught a bit from stv last night and from there camera angles there no where near the numbers quoted by the ministry.

A bit of background on the build up to the big weekend. Police Scotland demanded that the capacity for Bannockburn be reduced as they couldn't resource both this and Armed forces day on the same day in the same place. You'll recall that uk gov decided to make armed forces day this weekend in Stirling after the Bannockburn event had been announced.

Fergus Ewing said last week on TV that it was Stirling Council who wanted to host Armed Forces Day - not the UK Government. He also failed to mention any cutting of capacity by the police and was still attempting to sell 20,000 tickets last Sunday.

As for the rest , well I haven't seen pictures of the crowd but I really do doubt that 2,000 would attend a free event with the Red Arrows etc, and 10,000 would pay to watch kiddy on fighting.

[Stuart Dickson]

I got mine the other day - full of lies that have already been debunked and a couple of statements of the obvious that have no relevance at all. However, if someone doesn't know the truth then they might believe these lies - hence the Scottish Government's need to spend more taxpayers' money to inform people of the truth.

Not that I agree with spending taxpayers' money on this but the SNP was elected as the Scottish Government with the referendum as one of their policies and, I would say, therefore has the duty to inform voters of the lies that they are being fed in this leaflet. The parties in power in the UK did not, to my knowledge, have anything in their manifestos about holding a referendum. So, I would say, the Scottish Government has more "right" to spend taxpayers' money on this than the UK Government has. It's also important to point out that the UK Government is able to spread the cost across all the UK (hence 1p) while the Scottish Government is spreading the cost over Scotland alone (hence 14p). Of course, according to the No campaign, we are subsidised and so it is actually rUK money that the Scottish Government is spending on this.

In the last Scottish Election 1,967,742 Constituency Votes were placed. The SNP won 902,915 of those votes - that's 45%. The other 55% went to Unionist Party Representatives.

The population of Scotland is given as 5,295,000 approx. Less than 20% of all Scots voted for the SNP in the last Scottish Election.

The population of the UK is given as 63,230,000 approx. In the last General Election only 491,386 Scots voted for the SNP. that means that around 1 in 130 people in the UK voted for the SNP.

Yet you claim that these results give the SNP the right to use Scottish Taxpayers money under the guise of the Scottish Parliament to spent 39p for every person in Scotland to send out a White Paper document and some referendum propaganda? Indeed you claim it give them more of a mandate to spend this money than it gives the UK Government to spend 1p per person to send out some brochure.

You're absolutely right that none of these documents should be getting produced at the cost to the taxpayer. I haven't seen the UK document as yet, however I am now intregued enough to read the document, whereas before I would have binned it. I'm certainly interested to see what these disproved lies are that Westminster is printing on paper, and I can't wait to see the "absolute truth" that is supposed to be coming from the Scottish Government. Lets face it if the SNP do actually manage to put out a factual document it certainly will be a first.

[Stuart Dickson]

Haud on, it's not my rules. I'm not making it up. It was Alex Salmond who claimed that Margaret Thatcher had no mandate in Scotland and was wanted by no-one in Scotland despite the fact that she was voted for by more Scots than have EVER voted SNP in any one election. Indeed she managed a whole 504,000 more votes from Scots in 1979 than Alex Salmond managed in 2010.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Stuart Dickson