The Referendum Thread

[buddiecat]

Wid ye no need three legs tae dae that?

nah just big feet

[Guest TPAFKATS]

possibly,but we will need to build more houses for them first as all the slave immigrant workers,which mr salmond says we will need, will have taken up most of the available accomodation

All of the traditional "western world" will need to increase its population in teh coming years due to an ageing workforce and not enough kids - I blame the baby boomers!

UK refuses to acknowledge as it takes the anti immigration line. At least what SNP are proposing involves allowing skilled workers in who will benefit the country and also contribute to the economy. I believe it amounts to about 24,000 net imigration per year ?

[buddiecat]

She will no doubt appreciate the rest

sshhh dont tell him about us and her,when he's sleeping

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Wid ye no need three legs tae dae that?

Stop boasting...

[BuddieinEK]

I think the point that is portrayed by the yes campaign is that the Scottish vote doesn't really matter. Using the numbers on page 13 here you can see the effect that Scotland had on the outcome of each election. Basically if not a single person in Scotland bothered to vote then it mostly wouldn't have made any difference. It can be (and has been) spun both ways but with pretty much a two horse race since the war it would be pretty incredible if the UK government didn't coincide with what Scotland voted for often. Sometimes, however, we won't get what Scotland voted for and for some people, that is important.

1945 Labour govt (Attlee)

————————————

Labour majority: 146

Labour majority without any Scottish MPs in Parliament: 143

NO CHANGE WITHOUT SCOTTISH MPS

1950 Labour govt (Attlee)

————————————

Labour majority: 5

Without Scottish MPs: 2

NO CHANGE

1951 Conservative govt (Churchill/Eden)

——————————————————–

Conservative majority: 17

Without Scottish MPs: 16

NO CHANGE

1955 Conservative govt (Eden/Macmillan)

——————————————————–

Conservative majority: 60

Without Scottish MPs: 61

NO CHANGE

1959 Conservative govt (Macmillan/Douglas-Home)

————————————————————————

Conservative majority: 100

Without Scottish MPs: 109

NO CHANGE

1964 Labour govt (Wilson)

————————————

Labour majority: 4

Without Scottish MPs: -11

CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY OF 1

(Con 280, Lab 274, Lib 5)

1966 Labour govt (Wilson)

————————————

Labour majority: 98

Without Scottish MPs: 77

NO CHANGE

1970 Conservative govt (Heath)

——————————————–

Conservative majority: 30

Without Scottish MPs: 55

NO CHANGE

1974 Minority Labour govt (Wilson)

————————————————

Labour majority: -33

Without Scottish MPs: -42

POSSIBLE CHANGE – LABOUR MINORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MINORITY

(Without Scots: Con 276, Lab 261, Lib 11, Others 16)

1974b Labour govt (Wilson/Callaghan)

—————————————————–

Labour majority: 3

Without Scottish MPs: -8

CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO LABOUR MINORITY

(Lab 278 Con 261 Lib 10 others 15)

1979 Conservative govt (Thatcher)

————————————————

Conservative majority: 43

Without Scottish MPs: 70

NO CHANGE

1983 Conservative govt (Thatcher)

————————————————

Conservative majority: 144

Without Scottish MPs: 174

NO CHANGE

1987 Conservative govt (Thatcher/Major)

——————————————————

Conservative majority: 102

Without Scottish MPs: 154

NO CHANGE

1992 Conservative govt (Major)

———————————————

Conservative majority: 21

Without Scottish MPs: 71

NO CHANGE

1997 Labour govt (Blair)

———————————–

Labour majority: 179

Without Scottish MPs: 139

NO CHANGE

2001 Labour govt (Blair)

———————————–

Labour majority: 167

Without Scottish MPs: 129

NO CHANGE

2005 Labour govt (Blair/Brown)

——————————————–

Labour majority: 66

Without Scottish MPs: 43

NO CHANGE

2010 Coalition govt (Cameron)

——————————————

Conservative majority: -38

Without Scottish MPs: 19

CHANGE: CON-LIB COALITION TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY

So were our votes not counted?

Did we not get what we voted for in the vast majority of elections?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

sshhh dont tell him about us and her,when he's sleeping

[Bart Simpson]

It could be that the No campaign know the Nationalist campaign is just another utter wank, like the last one was, and that the majority of voting people who live in Scotland are not interested in a yes campaign that guarantees no change other than less representation politically, less say in the direction and use of their currency and the continuation in the availability of Eastenders.

It wouldn't take much effort to defeat that, no matter how many months the Yes-men wittered on at the edges and tied wee yes posters to lamp-posts.

For what it's worth, I think it's risible that you could mock the no campaign for failing to demonstrate a future vision, whilst Eck and co are allowed to get away with "a sprinkling of fairy gold dust".

Bluto, I am dismayed and angered by the abysmal BT campaign not mocking it. It is morally reprehensible the way they have treated the Scottish electorate.

18-24 months ago we were told it is all or nothing and Devo Max was not an option. Now in response to narrowing opinion polls the tide has turned and we are no longer voting for all or nothing, it's Yes vs Devo Max.

The goal posts have shifted, after postal voters have made their vote! The question for the referendum is now should Scotland have more powers within the UK or become independent?

That is no way to treat 5million plus people. It is simply panic stations and brinkmanship of the highest order. Whilst I welcome the promise of additional powers it hardly speaks of a unified clear voice for our future. It is a brass necked gamble as was not including a third option originally.

Read my posts on this debate. I want constructive commentary and critique. I want openness and honesty on both sides to allow undecided voters to make up their minds. This is the most important vote in several generations if not ever for Scotland. To treat it's people with such disdain is woefully inexcusable.

Or are you telling me that in actual fact the promises are not worth the paper they are yet to be written on? Just like those in 1979?

Regardless of perspective there is no positive voice for the future of Scotland from BT. It has taken recent opinion polls to stir them into action albeit in disarray. I simply hope Scots either call their bluff or hold them strongly to account.

As for Wee Eck, have I defended the SNP at any point in my previous post?

I'm voting Yes because it is what I believe in. I don't agree with every signal point of the Yes campaign but I believe Scotland is a nation capable of determining it's own destiny.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Bart Simpson

[buddiecat]

All of the traditional "western world" will need to increase its population in teh coming years due to an ageing workforce and not enough kids - I blame the baby boomers!

UK refuses to acknowledge as it takes the anti immigration line. At least what SNP are proposing involves allowing skilled workers in who will benefit the country and also contribute to the economy. I believe it amounts to about 24,000 net imigration per year ?

don't know the figures,but hopefully if this situation does arise we will train our current inhabitants for skilled jobs before we bring in others to make up the shortfall,

how can you blame the baby boomers for us not having enough kids ? and dont call me an ageing worker - even though i am one

[Bart Simpson]

> if I was voting No I would be thoroughly underwhelmed and disappointed by the campaign that has been led to this point.

I don't think you would be alone in that thought Bart, which is one reason why it's currently neck and neck. Like much in politics it's a game of poker. Most of these guys like to hold the cards until they have to make a play. Pretty much all as bad as each other imho.

To treat such a massive vote with this lack of respect especially after postal votes have been cast is wrong. Edited September 8, 2014 by Bart Simpson

[buddiecat]

Bluto, I am dismayed and angered by the abysmal BT campaign not mocking it. It is morally reprehensible the way they have treated the Scottish electorate.

18-24 months ago we were told it is all or nothing and Devo Max was not an option. Now in response to narrowing opinion polls the tide has turned and we are no longer voting for all or nothing, it's Yes vs Devo Max.

The goal posts have shifted, after postal voters have made their vote! The question for the referendum is now should Scotland have more powers within the UK or become independent?

That is no way to treat 5million plus people. It is simply panic stations and brinkmanship of the highest order. Whilst I welcome the promise of additional powers it hardly speaks of a unified clear voice for our future. It is a brass necked gamble as was not including a third option originally.

Read my posts on this debate. I want constructive commentary and critique. I want openness and honesty on both sides to allow undecided voters to make up their minds. This is the most important vote in several generations if not ever for Scotland. To treat it's people with such disdain is woefully inexcusable.

Or are you telling me that in actual fact the promises are not worth the paper they are yet to be written on? Just like those in 1979?

Regardless of perspective there is no positive voice for the future of Scotland from BT. It has taken recent opinion polls to stir them into action albeit in disarray. I simply hope Scots either call their bluff or hold them strongly to account.

As for Wee Eck, have I defended the SNP at any point in my previous post?

I'm voting Yes because it is what I believe in. I don't agree with every signal point of the Yes campaign but I believe Scotland is a nation capable of determining it's own destiny.

as for yes Vs devo max,it has certainly changed the goalposts,anyone who had thought of higher taxation being a deciding factor in voting no can now dismiss that,we will pay higher tax with either option.

[scottd]

as for yes Vs devo max,it has certainly changed the goalposts,anyone who had thought of higher taxation being a deciding factor in voting no can now dismiss that,we will pay higher tax with either option.

Yet to hear the explanation as to why Scotland controlling its own affairs will automatically lead to higher taxes.

[Stuart Dickson]

Yet to hear the explanation as to why Scotland controlling its own affairs will automatically lead to higher taxes.

Have you ever heard a Scottish politician talk of "tax lowering" powers?

[bluto]

Bluto, I am dismayed and angered by the abysmal BT campaign not mocking it. It is morally reprehensible the way they have treated the Scottish electorate.

18-24 months ago we were told it is all or nothing and Devo Max was not an option. Now in response to narrowing opinion polls the tide has turned and we are no longer voting for all or nothing, it's Yes vs Devo Max.

The goal posts have shifted, after postal voters have made their vote! The question for the referendum is now should Scotland have more powers within the UK or become independent?

That is no way to treat 5million plus people. It is simply panic stations and brinkmanship of the highest order. Whilst I welcome the promise of additional powers it hardly speaks of a unified clear voice for our future. It is a brass necked gamble as was not including a third option originally.

Read my posts on this debate. I want constructive commentary and critique. I want openness and honesty on both sides to allow undecided voters to make up their minds. This is the most important vote in several generations if not ever for Scotland. To treat it's people with such disdain is woefully inexcusable. P

Or are you telling me that in actual fact the promises are not worth the paper they are yet to be written on? Just like those in 1979?

Regardless of perspective there is no positive voice for the future of Scotland from BT. It has taken recent opinion polls to stir them into action albeit in disarray. I simply hope Scots either call their bluff or hold them strongly to account.

As for Wee Eck, have I defended the SNP at any point in my previous post?

I'm voting Yes because it is what I believe in. I don't agree with every signal point of the Yes campaign but I believe Scotland is a nation capable of determining it's own destiny.

I am as equally appalled by the way Nationalists are treating 60 million Britons, who are being subjected to selfish brinkmanship and given no say in the matter. Even more disdain shown for the rest of the nation than anything YOU can gripe about.

Also I have already dealt with promises not worth the paper they are written on... did you not read the about sprinkled fairy dust or all the other posts about "things being ok after the vote and we'll deal with it THEN"? What is it that marks out Nationalist politics as being a breed apart? How can you so blindly trust them? Can't be because they are Jocks cos Alistair Darling and Broonie get a healthy scepticism.

Why do you allow Nationalist politicians get away with their pish?

And finally... Despite the fact that Nationalist politicians have always been too scared (like all politicians) to use the powers they already have to raise more taxes and fix problems they deem to be peculiarly Scottish, more devolved powers have always been a likelihood.... The timing is as effective as it need be. A couple of weeks before the vote... NOT a year in advance to be engulfed by spurious pish such as spouted on this forum, (though not by me, obviously).

I hate to concede that Herr Dixon deserves a medal for mindlessly responding to so much of it.

Edited September 9, 2014 by bluto

[BoWSaint]

so you went from country to country unchecked,don't see why you felt the need to quote my post,my point was that having border posts dont scare me,in fact a border post might be a good thing if people who are doing wrong or have done wrong are stopped from entering or leaving a country,and it could disrupt the trafficking of drugs etc,

I quoted you because you said it is normal to have these border checks but in a lot of cases it isn't normal as I showed. Just because we leave the UK doesn't mean a 50ft fence with barbed wire, search lights, sniffer dogs and armed guards. Why couldn't it just be like the borders I described?

So were our votes not counted?

Did we not get what we voted for in the vast majority of elections?

Read the post again.

[Seaside Nipper]

> It should be an honest offering and a clear choice-not a game of brinkmanship.

In an ideal world I would not disagree with you at all Beyond. Unfortunately, as we all know, this is Politics. The stakes are high and anything goes. Would anyone be surprised by anything that either side does over the next 9 days?

Hmm, yes , quite.

We are about to witness the expression of the true Democratic right of voters to decide the future governance of a country. That is a fabulous thing.

The sad facts are that professional liars, consultants and shabby miscreants grasping at tax payers money will do just about anything to blind, ridicule, manipulate or frankly bribe the voters in order to secure their own personal end

Oh well, in for a penny and in true esprit de corp, my vote is available for the foxy Esther McVey to persuade me what box to stick my pencil in .....................

Imagine putting the future of a country up for the chance of a bag off.......................low !!

[saintnextlifetime]

Hmm, yes , quite.

We are about to witness the expression of the true Democratic right of voters to decide the future governance of a country. That is a fabulous thing.

The sad facts are that professional liars, consultants and shabby miscreants grasping at tax payers money will do just about anything to blind, ridicule, manipulate or frankly bribe the voters in order to secure their own personal end

Oh well, in for a penny and in true esprit de corp, my vote is available for the foxy Esther McVey to persuade me what box to stick my pencil in .....................

Imagine putting the future of a country up for the chance of a bag off.......................low !!

It sounds like you are saying that they are trying to patronise an entire nation ? Is that going to come back and bite them on the arse. .

[saintnextlifetime]

I quoted you because you said it is normal to have these border checks but in a lot of cases it isn't normal as I showed. Just because we leave the UK doesn't mean a 50ft fence with barbed wire, search lights, sniffer dogs and armed guards. Why couldn't it just be like the borders I described?

Yeh the way they go on about that consistently leads me to think that they believe it will herd the scared flock into a naw vote . It only illustrates their viewpoint of us , as a nation , and their desperation to keep us as a vassal state . A bit sad really. .

It also reminds me of Cameron dictating that if we leave the rUk , that "we can never go back" . Hopefully , that is one political promise he intends to keep. .

Edited September 9, 2014 by saintnextlifetime

[TopCat]

Still predicting 65/35 win for no?

When did I predict that?

[Phil McCracken]

It also reminds me of Cameron dictating that if we leave the rUk , that "we can never go back" . Hopefully , that is one political promise he intends to keep. .

i don't think Cameron was dictating but rather stating a fact.

Scotland can decide to leave on its own but to rejoin would entail a referendum of the r of uk as well. The liklihood of that happening would be zero.

[Phil McCracken]

I predict a 55 / 45 no win

at least

[Edinbuddie]

i don't think Cameron was dictating but rather stating a fact.

Scotland can decide to leave on its own but to rejoin would entail a referendum of the r of uk as well. The liklihood of that happening would be zero.

Yahooo!!!

In the entire history of the world, has any country ever democratically voted to be governed from another country?

[Edinbuddie]

I am as equally appalled by the way Nationalists are treating 60 million Britons, who are being subjected to selfish brinkmanship and given no say in the matter. Even more disdain shown for the rest of the nation than anything YOU can gripe about.

Also I have already dealt with promises not worth the paper they are written on... did you not read the about sprinkled fairy dust or all the other posts about "things being ok after the vote and we'll deal with it THEN"? What is it that marks out Nationalist politics as being a breed apart? How can you so blindly trust them? Can't be because they are Jocks cos Alistair Darling and Broonie get a healthy scepticism.

Why do you allow Nationalist politicians get away with their pish?

And finally... Despite the fact that Nationalist politicians have always been too scared (like all politicians) to use the powers they already have to raise more taxes and fix problems they deem to be peculiarly Scottish, more devolved powers have always been a likelihood.... The timing is as effective as it need be. A couple of weeks before the vote... NOT a year in advance to be engulfed by spurious pish such as spouted on this forum, (though not by me, obviously).

I hate to concede that Herr Dixon deserves a medal for mindlessly responding to so much of it.

So, in a partnership of 'equals', the people of one country ponder that it may be better for them to govern themselves and make decisions that better suit their particular circumstances. The people vote in such a way that gives the majority party within that country's devolved parliament the mandate to hold a referendum on the matter. A referendum is then held. In what way is that treating the rest of the UK with disdain? If you're arguing that voters in the rest of the UK should be given the chance to vote, then by the same logic, the proposed Tory/UKIP referendum on the EU should give voters in every EU country the chance to vote on it.

Jocks....I do hope that's ironic.

Mr Dickson certainly does 'mindlessly repond' to a lot of things.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

don't know the figures,but hopefully if this situation does arise we will train our current inhabitants for skilled jobs before we bring in others to make up the shortfall,

how can you blame the baby boomers for us not having I enough kids ? and dont call me an ageing worker - even though i am one

I meant there were loads of baby boomers who in turn have had less kids, their kids also had less kids than the baby boomer generation. This has led to an ever ageing population with more retiring and less working.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I am as equally appalled by the way Nationalists are treating 60 million Britons, who are being subjected to selfish brinkmanship and given no say in the matter. Even more disdain shown for the rest of the nation than anything YOU can gripe about.

Also I have already dealt with promises not worth the paper they are written on... did you not read the about sprinkled fairy dust or all the other posts about "things being ok after the vote and we'll deal with it THEN"? What is it that marks out Nationalist politics as being a breed apart? How can you so blindly trust them? Can't be because they are Jocks cos Alistair Darling and Broonie get a healthy scepticism.

Why do you allow Nationalist politicians get away with their pish?

And finally... Despite the fact that Nationalist politicians have always been too scared (like all politicians) to use the powers they already have to raise more taxes and fix problems they deem to be peculiarly Scottish, more devolved powers have always been a likelihood.... The timing is as effective as it need be. A couple of weeks before the vote... NOT a year in advance to be engulfed by spurious pish such as spouted on this forum, (though not by me, obviously).

I hate to concede that Herr Dixon deserves a medal for mindlessly responding to so much of it.

LOL, you're funny!

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Miliband urging rest of uk to fly the saltire and show how much Scotland is loved.

Not sure how many folk in England have a saltire in the cupboard...