The Referendum Thread

[Guest TPAFKATS]

None of the Westminster parties can be trusted to deliver on additional devolution. They have had years to provide details and haven't managed it. They could have had a proposal on the ballet paper for devolution max but refused as they thought they could conclusively defeat indy campaign without it. Bet they wish they had included it now!

Remember it took 18 years from the last promise of "jam tomorrow" in 1979 to get a Scottish Parliament even that was due to rise of SNP support.

[Girdiorn boy]

OK so you want to control when your troops get involved in campaigns and then they don't. That's fair enough I guess, but will Independence give you that choice? According to the SNP White Paper an independent Scotland will expect to be full members of NATO. As members of NATO we will be expected to send troops into warzones all around the world wherever NATO are involved regardless of what the population of Scotland thinks of the conflict. That's the nature of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation I'm afraid. NATO is also likely to have a very strong say in what happens at Faslane. That Naval Base is seen as a key military base in the defence of the Atlantic. I really cannot see a situation existing where an Independent Scotland can tell NATO to accept them as full members whilst also telling them to stick Trident up their arse.

I could pick you up on other parts of your post - especially the war criminal angle. After all Tony Blair - the supposed war criminal you refer to - is a Scot, as defined by the White Paper, due to the fact that he was born in Edinburgh. We could also look at the role the socialists in the Westminster government played in taking us into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we could also look at how Socialists usually behave in power particularly when it comes to tax, spending and the economy but I'll leave that for another post. Suffice to say we are and always will be Better Together.

im talking about war crimes over the centuries, we have murdered more folk than anyone else on the planet. we are hated by a multitude of nations for it. id tell em to shove trident up there arse. we dont need them. its a waste of money. why do we need to be full memebers of nato! could we just not be a neutral country and not get involved in other country's conflicts its what the Swiss have done for years and look at them.

[salmonbuddie]

Taking Trident out of Faslane does nothing to reduce its strategic location and its importance to NATO. Scotland in miniature, in effect, which is why we will be welcomed upon independence. And if we don't want to commit troops to a particular situation then we don't, even if that means leaving the organisation. That's not an option we have at present.

[Stuart Dickson]

None of the Westminster parties can be trusted to deliver on additional devolution. They have had years to provide details and haven't managed it. They could have had a proposal on the ballet paper for devolution max but refused as they thought they could conclusively defeat indy campaign without it. Bet they wish they had included it now!

Remember it took 18 years from the last promise of "jam tomorrow" in 1979 to get a Scottish Parliament even that was due to rise of SNP support.

Nonsense. Devo Max would have been Salmonds cop out. He knows Scots don't want independence and he knew that selling what we have with a little bit more power would be an easier sell to Scots. The main parties weren't suckered by his fannying around and wanted a straight yes or no question - which we have. Hopefully when Scotland votes No, Alex Salmonds political career will be over and I'm sure Nationalists everywhere will rejoice at that just as much as the rest of us.

I've stated my preference which would be a scrapping of the bamboo hut parish council. The bamboo hut costs us £72MILLION every year in maintenance costs alone and it shows just what a ridiculous folly it is. Unfortunately I think Westminister would be happy to give Scots more powers at Hollyrood

[Stuart Dickson]

Taking Trident out of Faslane does nothing to reduce its strategic location and its importance to NATO. Scotland in miniature, in effect, which is why we will be welcomed upon independence. And if we don't want to commit troops to a particular situation then we don't, even if that means leaving the organisation. That's not an option we have at present.

It does if they've got nowhere else to put their nuclear deterrents

I'll happily venture that if Scotland ever did become independent one of the first pledges the SNP would negotiate away is nuclear weapons on Scottish soil.

[Stuart Dickson]

im talking about war crimes over the centuries, we have murdered more folk than anyone else on the planet. we are hated by a multitude of nations for it. id tell em to shove trident up there arse. we dont need them. its a waste of money. why do we need to be full memebers of nato! could we just not be a neutral country and not get involved in other country's conflicts its what the Swiss have done for years and look at them.

Hmm, yes. But then you have to protect your own waters at your own cost and since Scotland is totally dependent on oil that may take a bit of protecting. Still either way it's not an option on the ballot paper - unless you take the view that NATO will tell an independent Scotland to f**k off.

[Girdiorn boy]

Hmm, yes. But then you have to protect your own waters at your own cost and since Scotland is totally dependent on oil that may take a bit of protecting. Still either way it's not an option on the ballot paper - unless you take the view that NATO will tell an independent Scotland to f**k off.

hope they do then we dont have to fight in needless wars

[Girdiorn boy]

Nonsense. Devo Max would have been Salmonds cop out. He knows Scots don't want independence and he knew that selling what we have with a little bit more power would be an easier sell to Scots. The main parties weren't suckered by his fannying around and wanted a straight yes or no question - which we have. Hopefully when Scotland votes No, Alex Salmonds political career will be over and I'm sure Nationalists everywhere will rejoice at that just as much as the rest of us.

I've stated my preference which would be a scrapping of the bamboo hut parish council. The bamboo hut costs us £72MILLION every year in maintenance costs alone and it shows just what a ridiculous folly it is. Unfortunately I think Westminister would be happy to give Scots more powers at Hollyrood

i wont rejoce at him leaving it will be a sad day but then we have wee nicola to step up and make even more noise than alex and do as much for the good of our country and will make sure the torries f**k off forever

[BoWSaint]

[stevenston saint]

Really !

As for calling Salmond and Sturgeon muppets, what the hell does that make Alastair Darling who incidentally is the only one getting "benched". S&S may not be brilliant however they are by a long, long way the best politicians currently plying their trade in Scotland. That said the overall standard cross party is pretty embarassing with the weakness and fear in the No campaign been highlighted ever more clearly by the repeat returns of Cameron to try to bolster a flagging campaign. Labour appear to be like the cyclist in a tour de France breakaway who do not want to take their turn at the front. They are contributing virtualy nil to the better together effort which is more and more being taken over by Cameron and the London based Tories. Lamentable is the one emerging with the least credit from all of this - it's as if there is a definite No tactic to now keep her as far as possible from the front line (which is probably no bad thing).

As if you don't get enough of this shite by email LOL .Oh a like from Mr AL ??

[Stuart Dickson]

hope they do then we dont have to fight in needless wars

Fair enough then. I'm not sure how voting Yes will help your cause since the SNP White Paper is quite clear that Scotland will be members of NATO but if you want to play football with no goalie guarding your goal that's your choice. Good luck.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

1557619_646793805398569_1106993907934649272_n.jpg

Look a poster with facts on it that can be substantiated.

[Stuart Dickson]

1557619_646793805398569_1106993907934649272_n.jpg

Got to love the Natsi's. If in doubt and when losing just make some shit up and put it out as propaganda.

The latest figures show that Scotland is being subsidised by the Rest of the UK currently. It's a point that hasn't been contested by the SNP or anyone in the Yes campaign. In 2013/4 Scotland spent more than it took in through taxes and at the same time the Scottish Government ran up a budget deficit of £12Bn. It would be nice if people didn't just keep posting propaganda shite. It doesn't really help the debate at all.

However since the Natsi's are doing it - I see today that the Better Together campaign is today running a press release quoting "Stefan Fule" as saying that should Scotland become independent under EU rules it would have to lose it's zero rated VAT exemptions that currently exist on most food items and on children's clothing. It also goes on to quote a Nicholas Hallam of CEO Accordance as saying an Independent Scotland would "Extremely probably" have to have a higher VAT rate than England. The article is http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/eu-official-confirms-vat-would-have-to-rise-in-a-separate-scotland

My opinion is that it's speculative at best but since BoWSaint is publishing silly propaganda tonight I thought I'd level the field

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Have a look at this as well if you doubt Scotland's financial abilities.

John Jappy was uk treasury civil servant. He has seen the figures going way back to the 1960s (pre oil days) showing how Scotland was more than paying its way. Better together? More like lied to and misinformed by successive Westminster governments for decades.

Edited May 19, 2014 by TPAFKATS

[BoWSaint]

Got to love the Natsi's. If in doubt and when losing just make some shit up and put it out as propaganda.

The latest figures show that Scotland is being subsidised by the Rest of the UK currently. It's a point that hasn't been contested by the SNP or anyone in the Yes campaign. In 2013/4 Scotland spent more than it took in through taxes and at the same time the Scottish Government ran up a budget deficit of £12Bn. It would be nice if people didn't just keep posting propaganda shite. It doesn't really help the debate at all.

However since the Natsi's are doing it - I see today that the Better Together campaign is today running a press release quoting "Stefan Fule" as saying that should Scotland become independent under EU rules it would have to lose it's zero rated VAT exemptions that currently exist on most food items and on children's clothing. It also goes on to quote a Nicholas Hallam of CEO Accordance as saying an Independent Scotland would "Extremely probably" have to have a higher VAT rate than England. The article is http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/eu-official-confirms-vat-would-have-to-rise-in-a-separate-scotland

My opinion is that it's speculative at best but since BoWSaint is publishing silly propaganda tonight I thought I'd level the field

Yup, more speculation of what could happen by Better Together, just like us driving on the right hand side of the road and not being able to watch Dr Who. Now bike helmets and onesies could cost more. Magically, they also couldn't. Tada! More scaremongering that BT claim they aren't doing!!! Can't focus on their own campaign so have to drag down the opposition with more speculation which you quite openly admit. Focus on your own campaign...are we getting the status quo or getting more powers for the Scottish Goverment? Make your mind up UK! VAT might go up.....just like it recently did with the UK government?! Shock horror. The future is uncertain. It is uncertain however the vote goes.

If we are such a drain on the UK (12Bn a year!) then why on earth would rUK be so desperate to keep such a leech attached? The only sensible approach would be to thank us for our time over the past 300 years, wish us well and then start worrying about where to spend all the extra money that they suddenly have. Instead they are fighting tooth and nail to keep throwing money into the bottomless pit of Scotland at the expense of the other 90% of the country. Thanks Westminster! Wait a minute, do we really want to be ruled by people who would make such terrible financial decisions for our country?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Yup, more speculation of what could happen by Better Together, just like us driving on the right hand side of the road and not being able to watch Dr Who. Now bike helmets and onesies could cost more. Magically, they also couldn't. Tada! More scaremongering that BT claim they aren't doing!!! Can't focus on their own campaign so have to drag down the opposition with more speculation which you quite openly admit. Focus on your own campaign...are we getting the status quo or getting more powers for the Scottish Goverment? Make your mind up UK! VAT might go up.....just like it recently did with the UK government?! Shock horror. The future is uncertain. It is uncertain however the vote goes.

If we are such a drain on the UK (12Bn a year!) then why on earth would rUK be so desperate to keep such a leech attached? The only sensible approach would be to thank us for our time over the past 300 years, wish us well and then start worrying about where to spend all the extra money that they suddenly have. Instead they are fighting tooth and nail to keep throwing money into the bottomless pit of Scotland at the expense of the other 90% of the country. Thanks Westminster! Wait a minute, do we really want to be ruled by people who would make such terrible financial decisions for our country?

Nick clegg announced today that IF we vote no Lib Dems would be the guarentor of more devolution. That'll be the same Nick Clegg who told the rest of the uk that the lib dems wouldnt introduce tuition fees for students

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Scotland is 12bn in debt as part of the UK, which is 114bn in debt.

As the troll says "It would be nice if people didn't just keep posting propaganda shite. It doesn't really help the debate at all."

[Stuart Dickson]

Yup, more speculation of what could happen by Better Together, just like us driving on the right hand side of the road and not being able to watch Dr Who. Now bike helmets and onesies could cost more. Magically, they also couldn't. Tada! More scaremongering that BT claim they aren't doing!!! Can't focus on their own campaign so have to drag down the opposition with more speculation which you quite openly admit. Focus on your own campaign...are we getting the status quo or getting more powers for the Scottish Goverment? Make your mind up UK! VAT might go up.....just like it recently did with the UK government?! Shock horror. The future is uncertain. It is uncertain however the vote goes.

If we are such a drain on the UK (12Bn a year!) then why on earth would rUK be so desperate to keep such a leech attached? The only sensible approach would be to thank us for our time over the past 300 years, wish us well and then start worrying about where to spend all the extra money that they suddenly have. Instead they are fighting tooth and nail to keep throwing money into the bottomless pit of Scotland at the expense of the other 90% of the country. Thanks Westminster! Wait a minute, do we really want to be ruled by people who would make such terrible financial decisions for our country?

Oh dear - the driving on the right hand side of the road story was launched on the unsuspecting public on the 1st of April 2014. It wasn't put out there by Better Together, but by the Guardian newspaper having a little bit of a laugh. Imagine being silly enough to quote that as some sort of No Campaign scare story

As for Dr Who well there is at least some logic in that idea as the SNP have acknowledged. Currently Scots pay a TV licence which funds the BBC. If Scots vote for Independence then it is obviously open to all manner of possibilities about what would then happen regarding the broadcaster. It's possible for example that the Scottish Parliament would decide to scrap the TV Licence, or to reduce it or to collect the money but refuse to pass it to the BBC instead using the money for the SBC that the White Paper talks about. Now obviously if Scots aren't paying a licence fee the relationship with the broadcaster would need to change. I don't think it's likely we wouldn't get Dr Who, but we may need to pay to view it, or we may need to sit through TV adverts to watch it as they do in the US. Of course I suspect that many Scots desperate for an Eastenders fix would simply buy a proxy and use that to access the content on iPlayer circumventing the copyright laws as many Scots already do when watching football or movies online.

As for what happens in the event of a No vote - well quite simply everything is likely to remain pretty much the same. UK Governments tinker with legislation cause that's what they do. We have a coalition government right now that appear to have run out of things to do until the next general election when they hope the electorate will allow them a divorce. The UK economy is back on track now, Osbourne and Cameron will be widly acclaimed for bringing the UK out of recession even if they have failed to cut spending. Is there likely to be more powers given to Edinburgh - I think there is no doubt that there will be mores the pity cause I don't think the parish council made up of failed councillors can be trusted with anything more than deep discussions on sheep dipping.

[Stuart Dickson]

Scotland is 12bn in debt as part of the UK, which is 114bn in debt.

As the troll says "It would be nice if people didn't just keep posting propaganda shite. It doesn't really help the debate at all."

I don't know where you are getting your figures from but the overall UK deficit was standing at £96Bn in January and it's been falling rapidly against a backdrop that sees our GDP rising, employment rates at record highs, etc, etc. We've even managed to bust the tax avoidance scheme where Gary Barlow and his pals had their money hidden which means we've recouped yet another £340m. Where the UK economy is being dragged down this year is by the Scottish Government and their over reliance on high oil prices which led to the Scottish deficit rising dramatically - bucking the trend for every other part of the UK.

Scotland on it's own isn't fiscally viable without large tax increases or big public service cuts. The SNP White Paper based it's costings on sky high Brent Crude Oil prices which would have forced up the cost of petrol, the cost of electricity and gas in the home, and pushed up the cost of everything we buy in the shops due to increased costs in shipping and manufacture. If the SNP had their way growth in Scotland would have completely stalled, unemployment would be rocketing and confidence in the Scottish economy would be at a record low. Fortunately Scotland has the rest of the UK to fall back on. f**k going it alone

[salmonbuddie]

It does if they've got nowhere else to put their nuclear deterrents

I'll happily venture that if Scotland ever did become independent one of the first pledges the SNP would negotiate away is nuclear weapons on Scottish soil.

No it doesn't, its strategic value as a North Atlantic support base is not reduced by removal of nuclear weapons. Remind me again what NATO stands for? Operation Warrior is run every year, I can see the number of international warships that use Faslane from my office window.

The SNP will not be the party in power after independence so you're wrong again on that one, too. Not that you'll ever admit it, can't make up my mind if that makes you childish or a troll.

Edited May 20, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[oaksoft]

I don't know where you are getting your figures from but the overall UK deficit was standing at £96Bn in January and it's been falling rapidly against a backdrop that sees our GDP rising, employment rates at record highs, etc, etc. We've even managed to bust the tax avoidance scheme where Gary Barlow and his pals had their money hidden which means we've recouped yet another £340m. Where the UK economy is being dragged down this year is by the Scottish Government and their over reliance on high oil prices which led to the Scottish deficit rising dramatically - bucking the trend for every other part of the UK.

Scotland on it's own isn't fiscally viable without large tax increases or big public service cuts. The SNP White Paper based it's costings on sky high Brent Crude Oil prices which would have forced up the cost of petrol, the cost of electricity and gas in the home, and pushed up the cost of everything we buy in the shops due to increased costs in shipping and manufacture. If the SNP had their way growth in Scotland would have completely stalled, unemployment would be rocketing and confidence in the Scottish economy would be at a record low. Fortunately Scotland has the rest of the UK to fall back on. f**k going it alone

The poster uses details from official GERS figures 2012 to 2013.

As for large tax increases or public service cuts?

[thepaisleypanda]

If you voted for Independence then no you won't be entitled to 9% of the benefits because you won't contributing to the rest of the UK. There may be some sort of arrangement made with the rUK to allow Scotland to continue to use the UK diplomatic service, although I'm not sure that it would serve Scotland any better than sharing a French or a German embassy. After all why would an rUK diplomat promote the Scottish Whisky industry ahead of, for talk sake, Rum, Brandy or Gin? I'm not sure why exactly you are struggling with the concept of this. Even Nicola Sturgeon is saying Scotland will have fewer embassies FFS.

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/9196-uk-government-criticised-after-embassies-charge-to-promote-whisky

Cos they get paid for it?

[Isabella Duke]

The latest figures show that Scotland is being subsidised by the Rest of the UK currently. It's a point that hasn't been contested by the SNP or anyone in the Yes campaign. In 2013/4 Scotland spent more than it took in through taxes and at the same time the Scottish Government ran up a budget deficit of £12Bn. It would be nice if people didn't just keep posting propaganda shite. It doesn't really help the debate at all.

Stuart, you know I'm a supporter of the yes campaign and I've had a few chuckles on this thread reading the way you have run rings round the no fans.

Just going to pick you up on this comment however - as I don't actually know the stats much.

The fact that Scotland spends more than it takes in and is running up a budget deficit doesn't mean that we are being subsidised by the rest of the UK surely? Surely the rest of the UK is also spending more than it brings in in taxes and is also running up a budget deficit?

I suppose the question is, are we running up more of a defcit than the rest of the UK?

[Drew]

Stuart, you know I'm a supporter of the yes campaign and I've had a few chuckles on this thread reading the way you have run rings round the no fans.

Just going to pick you up on this comment however - as I don't actually know the stats much.

The fact that Scotland spends more than it takes in and is running up a budget deficit doesn't mean that we are being subsidised by the rest of the UK surely? Surely the rest of the UK is also spending more than it brings in in taxes and is also running up a budget deficit?

I suppose the question is, are we running up more of a defcit than the rest of the UK?

Stopped reading....

Right.

There.

[oaksoft]

Stuart, you know I'm a supporter of the yes campaign and I've had a few chuckles on this thread reading the way you have run rings round the no fans.

Just going to pick you up on this comment however - as I don't actually know the stats much.

The fact that Scotland spends more than it takes in and is running up a budget deficit doesn't mean that we are being subsidised by the rest of the UK surely? Surely the rest of the UK is also spending more than it brings in in taxes and is also running up a budget deficit?

I suppose the question is, are we running up more of a defcit than the rest of the UK?

No we are not. Scotland's deficit is below that of the UK.