Charlotte Saint Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well exactly. I can't get my head around the pro independence lobby at all. They say they want independence and when we get a straight forward yes or no question on it they start to demand that the no campaign offer Devo Max as a consolation prize. There's no need at all. Despite recent polls support for independence has never really been steady at anything other that 33% - support for remaining in the Union has always been steady at around 66%. Why would a consolation prize be offered to the losers? It was interesting watching Welsh Assembly members on all sides saying on Politics Today saying that there is absolutely no desire for Independence from the UK in Wales and them saying that although they believed Devolution was a success the big failing was that the Scottish, Northern Ireland and Welsh Assemblies had no formal contact to discuss what policies had been implemented that worked, and what had failed, meaning that many of the devolved parliaments were duplicating work that was doomed to failure. someone needs to get out more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I can't get my head around the pro independence lobby at all. They say they want independence and when we get a straight forward yes or no question on it they start to demand that the no campaign offer Devo Max as a consolation prize. There's no need at all. Despite recent polls support for independence has never really been steady at anything other that 33% - support for remaining in the Union has always been steady at around 66%. Why would a consolation prize be offered to the losers? I agree with this. There will be no consolation prize. People need to understand that there will be no further powers without independence and that a No vote will see the Westminster government punish us. All I'm saying is that the NO campaign need to be honest about this. At the moment they are pretending there will be some extra powers coming. That simply won't happen and those favouring devo max need to understand this ASAP. It's all or nothing. Independence or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 We already elect MPs to Westminster. Why did we need another level of MPs and a building, infrastructure, etc to go with it? Why don't we get rid of it and if there is anything purely Scottish to decide upon then let the Scottish MPs at Westminster get on with it! The independence argument is a joke as well. I remember a couple of decades ago when the SNP were arguing that we needed independence because interest rates were used by the Bank of England to cool rising house prices in the South of England. Now we are being told that they want to keep the pound? If they can change their minds about something so fundamental in the relatively short space of 20 years then it really isn't a good idea! : It depends on whether you believe in localisation of power or not. I just do't understand why anyone in Scotland would prefer to be governed by Tories we didn't elect. It's a real puzzler that one. Even Tory voters up here must see how ludicrous that is. As for your comment about interest rates? I don't get your point. Since Salmond made that speech interest rates are now set by an independent source free from political interference. That's a pretty significant switch and requires re-evaluation. Interesting that you think changing your mind is a sign of weakness. You must be one of a small band who see virtue in remaining stubborn in the face of shifting sands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Simpson Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think Oaksoft has answered the question for me. However for all those in the anti-devolution camp, you are in the minority. The majority of Scots want more powers at Holyrood with devolution. The question is as to whether it is with complete independence or Devo Max. The SNPs majority status in government has brought about an unprecedented referendum and time will tell as to whether we are ready for independence. A No vote though without increased powers at Holyrood will not put this once in a generation issue to rest. I'm not arguing black versus white, but advocating a return to pre-devolution isn't going to happen. Therefore unless alternatives are offered, a No vote will simple leave resentment and increased desire to vote Yes next time round... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I agree with this. There will be no consolation prize. People need to understand that there will be no further powers without independence and that a No vote will see the Westminster government punish us. All I'm saying is that the NO campaign need to be honest about this. At the moment they are pretending there will be some extra powers coming. That simply won't happen and those favouring devo max need to understand this ASAP. It's all or nothing. Independence or nothing. Apart from the blatant adoption of an all or nothing fear campaign, here's an addition of the "expecting bread to be buttered on both sides" argument.The Government are " pretending there will be some extra powers coming"... on the one hand, whilst on the other...the Government are obviously bluffing about things that will NOT happen after the vote eg "if we vote Yes then, of course, the Government will have to negotiate about using the £". I would suggest that this is a very clever and astute Government ploy, until I recall that this is a Tory Government. This merely underlines why I suggest that there is no need for them to say anything. The Yes campaign has to make it up as they go along and change hearts and minds. Edited February 25, 2014 by bluto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluto Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 A No vote though without increased powers at Holyrood will not put this once in a generation issue to rest. Far be it from me to grumble, but at my age it seems far more often and tedious than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 It depends on whether you believe in localisation of power or not. I just do't understand why anyone in Scotland would prefer to be governed by Tories we didn't elect. It's a real puzzler that one. Even Tory voters up here must see how ludicrous that is. As for your comment about interest rates? I don't get your point. Since Salmond made that speech interest rates are now set by an independent source free from political interference. That's a pretty significant switch and requires re-evaluation. Interesting that you think changing your mind is a sign of weakness. You must be one of a small band who see virtue in remaining stubborn in the face of shifting sands. Well everyone knows my thoughts on localisation of power. We had that long before Devolution because our local councils did that job - and still do really. Anyway I'm glad you've clarified your position on localisation of power and self determination. I note that Lanarkshire did not vote SNP in either the last General Election or in the Scottish Election. Instead we voted for parties who wish us to remain in the Union. I'm sure you'll be happy for us to determine that our future remains in the Union regardless of the referendum result? Perhaps more importantly though - I see that the constituencies for which Faslane sits in also voted for "Unionist Parties" and are represented by a Lib Dem MP and a Labour MSP. Given your views can we expect the Scottish Government to happily back calls for the Trident base to remain a UK enclave in the event of a Yes vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 It was interesting watching Welsh Assembly members on all sides saying on Politics Today saying that there is absolutely no desire for Independence from the UK in Wales and them saying that although they believed Devolution was a success the big failing was that the Scottish, Northern Ireland and Welsh Assemblies had no formal contact to discuss what policies had been implemented that worked, and what had failed, meaning that many of the devolved parliaments were duplicating work that was doomed to failure. Aside from the fact that this is barely comprehensible, it doesn't make a great deal of sense in any event. To suggest that devolved legislatures should consult with each other with a view to establishing what has or hasn't worked in their respective jurisdications is counter-intuitive. The very ethos of devolved power is to foster decision-making that is tailored and relevant to the specified localities. Let's face it, the respective devolved bodies would be as well checking things out with Westminster before implementing policies. Defeats the purpose, somewhat, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Far be it from me to grumble, but at my age it seems far more often and tedious than that. Oh and you can bet that if the Natsi's don't get a Yes vote they'll be back calling for an Independence Referendum within the next 10 years - no doubt this time claiming that toddlers at nursery need to be given a vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Oh and you can bet that if the Natsi's don't get a Yes vote they'll be back calling for an Independence Referendum within the next 10 years - no doubt this time claiming that toddlers at nursery need to be given a vote. This Natsi chat of yours is as bad as the St Maureen pish on P&B. It does nothing to advance your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Saint Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 This Natsi chat of yours is as bad as the St Maureen pish on P&B. It does nothing to advance your argument. Don't waste your time Drew, i tried to get him to stop that offensive phrase a while back and it made no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 This Natsi chat of yours is as bad as the St Maureen pish on P&B. It does nothing to advance your argument. St Maureen.....that's quite good. I might steal that too.: Thanks for that. I don't use P&B these days. It's nice to be kept up with modern advances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Simpson Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Oh and you can bet that if they don't get a Yes vote they'll be back calling for an Independence Referendum within the next 10 yearsThis is my point exactly, omitting the flippant and derisory commentary.The undeniable fact is that 2/3 want more autonomy in whatever form. If this is not delivered following a potential No vote on independence then the issue will not go away. I completely accept that the main crux of the No campaign is to simply get a No by whatever means with no necessity to provide an alternative. However, the astute and talented politicians at Westminster surely know that an SNP majority Government in Holyrood is pretty categorical evidence that the status quo at Westminster isn't working for Scotland... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Ali v Frasier, Sugar Ray Leonard v Roberto Duran... 10.30 tonight, Sturgeon v Lamont... Get the beer and popcorn in? Nah, me neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddiecat Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I agree with this. There will be no consolation prize. People need to understand that there will be no further powers without independence and that a No vote will see the Westminster government punish us. All I'm saying is that the NO campaign need to be honest about this. At the moment they are pretending there will be some extra powers coming. That simply won't happen and those favouring devo max need to understand this ASAP. It's all or nothing. Independence or nothing. interesting point in bold there,on what evidence do you state the westminster government will punish us - given that you are basically already arguing that they already punish us for not being in the south of england - what else will they do ?, i do not know about any other peoples jobs but i do know that if a yes vote is the outcome then myself and thousands others who are employed by uk government will be living in a separate country and become redundant because lawfully i will not be allowed to deal with english,welsh and irish residents confidential information, Ruk makes up 95% or more of my daily workload and that of most other civil servants in scotland, therefore thousands will lose their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I agree with this. There will be no consolation prize. People need to understand that there will be no further powers without independence and that a No vote will see the Westminster government punish us. All I'm saying is that the NO campaign need to be honest about this. At the moment they are pretending there will be some extra powers coming. That simply won't happen and those favouring devo max need to understand this ASAP. It's all or nothing. Independence or nothing. Thanks to Bluto I saw this via his reply. Oaky, I used to think you were a bit Dolly Dimple but now I see you are plain f**king nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbud Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 interesting point in bold there,on what evidence do you state the westminster government will punish us - given that you are basically already arguing that they already punish us for not being in the south of england - what else will they do ?, i do not know about any other peoples jobs but i do know that if a yes vote is the outcome then myself and thousands others who are employed by uk government will be living in a separate country and become redundant because lawfully i will not be allowed to deal with english,welsh and irish residents confidential information, Ruk makes up 95% or more of my daily workload and that of most other civil servants in scotland, therefore thousands will lose their job. I dont know which branch of the civil Service you work in, but surely if we vote yes there will still have to be a certain level of government jobs in your field. I havent had the inclination to read the white thingmy jig that was published but I would imagine that they have thought through the whole DVLA, passport, work and pensions, job centre, national insurance etc. etc. which i would imagine would create quite a few new departments in scotland for things not locally run. Look on the brightside maybe you will get a handsome redundancy package along with the civil service pension and stroll into the same job in the scottish civil service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well everyone knows my thoughts on localisation of power. We had that long before Devolution because our local councils did that job - and still do really. Anyway I'm glad you've clarified your position on localisation of power and self determination. I note that Lanarkshire did not vote SNP in either the last General Election or in the Scottish Election. Instead we voted for parties who wish us to remain in the Union. I'm sure you'll be happy for us to determine that our future remains in the Union regardless of the referendum result? Perhaps more importantly though - I see that the constituencies for which Faslane sits in also voted for "Unionist Parties" and are represented by a Lib Dem MP and a Labour MSP. Given your views can we expect the Scottish Government to happily back calls for the Trident base to remain a UK enclave in the event of a Yes vote? Was that the Lib Dem and Labour parties that are against replacing Trident or even the ones that are anti nuclear weapons - they tend to flip flop a bit over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 interesting point in bold there,on what evidence do you state the westminster government will punish us - given that you are basically already arguing that they already punish us for not being in the south of england - what else will they do ?, i do not know about any other peoples jobs but i do know that if a yes vote is the outcome then myself and thousands others who are employed by uk government will be living in a separate country and become redundant because lawfully i will not be allowed to deal with english,welsh and irish residents confidential information, Ruk makes up 95% or more of my daily workload and that of most other civil servants in scotland, therefore thousands will lose their job. A westminster committee (cant recall the name) has already stated in print that it will be abolishing the Barnett formula. From 2015 austerity cuts will see at least £4bn per year less pocket money given to Scotland from Westminster. the current London government has already stated that there is a need for more cuts and "red" Ed Milliband has stated his admiration for thatcher and the need to be as tough as tories in recent weeks. Ian Davidson, Labour MP for weegie land and chairman of Scottish Select Affairs committee at Westminster has stated that powers will be stripped from Holyrood in event of a no vote. Just before Christmas House of Lords revoked energy powers from Scotland back to Westminster. Will that do for starters or do you need more evidence? With regards civil service jobs there is no reason why they couldn't be "outsourced" from rUK to anywhere else. There will also be a need to swap posts that are currently centralised in UK - so there will still be demand for civil service posts, just might need to see staff in both Scotland and rUK learn retrained. I don't know the job you do within civil service and this is not meant to necessarily reflect your situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks to Bluto I saw this via his reply. Oaky, I used to think you were a bit Dolly Dimple but now I see you are plain f**king nuts. Maybe bluto will be kind enough to pass this on - either man up and talk to me yourself or stop responding to my posts and stop making sly comments on other threads. Deal with me directly or not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 interesting point in bold there,on what evidence do you state the westminster government will punish us - given that you are basically already arguing that they already punish us for not being in the south of england - what else will they do ?, i do not know about any other peoples jobs but i do know that if a yes vote is the outcome then myself and thousands others who are employed by uk government will be living in a separate country and become redundant because lawfully i will not be allowed to deal with english,welsh and irish residents confidential information, Ruk makes up 95% or more of my daily workload and that of most other civil servants in scotland, therefore thousands will lose their job. Well we can start with the fact that the Barnett formula is about to get screwed and that we can look forward to many more years of severe budget cuts. That's your starter for 10. BTW I have no idea why you think legally you'd be out of work. Who is saying you wouldn't legally be allowed to work in this area? Who is saying you'd lose your job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Lamont a few pounds over fighting weight. Sturgeon looks to be in better shape. Not long to the big fight now. Eve Muirhead carrying the round cards wearing nothing but a pair of M&S spanks. Might tune in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Lamont a few pounds over fighting weight. Sturgeon looks to be in better shape. Not long to the big fight now. Eve Muirhead carrying the round cards wearing nothing but a pair of M&S spanks. Might tune in. On paper its a bit of a mismatch. Will "Stairheid Rammy" Lamont manage to fight off "The Sturge" while holding her script? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On paper its a bit of a mismatch. Will "Stairheid Rammy" Lamont manage to fight off "The Sturge" while holding her script? Stairheid Rammy in the famous black and white, and The Sturge in change kit red. A magnificent effort from both women to engage with the St Mirren support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Stairheid Rammy in the famous black and white, and The Sturge in change kit red. A magnificent effort from both women to engage with the St Mirren support. I'm going to go out on a limb here - both of them will attempt to talk all over each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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