The Referendum Thread

[Bud Bundy]

Come off it - a melted wellie look's better - Even NSS widnae !

13 second delay, unlucky for me Div ? Not up to speed David !

[saintnextlifetime]

Since future energy demands will shape our country economically moving forward this is a decent article about UCG written by one of the North Sea Oil pioneers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10518072/UKs-next-offshore-energy-fortune-lies-in-coal.html

Underground coal gasification. http://www.ucgassociation.org

Seems like a sensible option moving forward.

I believe , that , discounting open caste , Scotland still has enough coal onshore . It is just that a well known previous PM , shut the majority of mines. .

http://kochhars.com/democracylive/hi/scotland/newsid_9784000/9784792.stm

[Stuart Dickson]

I believe , that , discounting open caste , Scotland still has enough coal onshore . It is just that a well known previous PM , shut the majority of mines. .

http://kochhars.com/democracylive/hi/scotland/newsid_9784000/9784792.stm

Thatcher did everyone a favour. Traditional mining was woefully inefficient. It scarred the landscape; it's made many miles of surface land unusable for any sort of construction; it was expensive; it wasted coal because deposits had to be left behind to prop up the structures underground; it was dangerous for the miners down there; and it's left a legacy of breathing problems amongst ex miners all throughout the UK. Even today there are fires burning underground burning away at the coal reserves because it was impossible to put the fires out. There's a particularly bad one just outside Wishaw between Law Village and Overtown on the road down to the Garrion Bridge where a local resident who was out for a walk in the woods fell into a bing which has been burning for over 50 years. At Gorebridge residents have been repeatedly warned to stay away from Arniston Bing for exactly the same reason.

Open cast mining was always going to be the way forward. it's much more cost efficient, has much fewer consequences in terms of health and safety and the disrupted land can be restored very easily indeed once all the coal has been extracted. Far from being derided Thatcher should be held up as a modern day hero.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Stuart Dickson]

Guess what folks, they did.

North Lanarkshire

http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=21143

South Lanarkshire

http://www.southlanarkshire.gov.uk/downloads/file/6916/return_of_constituency_members

http://www.southlanarkshire.gov.uk/downloads/file/6917/return_of_regional_members

No we didn't. Have a look at your own figures in the articles you've quoted. Count the number of votes the parties standing on a Independence mandate versus those on a Unionist mandate and you'll see quite clearly that in all area's of Lanarkshire - except East Kilbride - the majority vote went to the Union. In East Kilbride Independence managed a majority, but only just. The figures are actually in double digits, and more people spoiled their ballot papers than the majority Independence got.

All this was against a background where the SNP were trading on a supposed angst in Scotland that the Labour Party had failed to stop the coalition gaining power at Westminster and where voters were expected to protest against the Westminster system.

So - since the people of Lanarkshire did not vote for Independence can we be exempted from an Independent Scotland in the event of a Yes vote in September. After all isn't the Yes Campaign's biggest argument that we all deserve to get what we vote for.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[oaksoft]

No we didn't. Have a look at your own figures in the articles you've quoted. Count the number of votes the parties standing on a Independence mandate versus those on a Unionist mandate and you'll see quite clearly that in all area's of Lanarkshire - except East Kilbride - the majority vote went to the Union. In East Kilbride Independence managed a majority, but only just. The figures are actually in double digits, and more people spoiled their ballot papers than the majority Independence got.

All this was against a background where the SNP were trading on a supposed angst in Scotland that the Labour Party had failed to stop the coalition gaining power at Westminster and where voters were expected to protest against the Westminster system.

So - since the people of Lanarkshire did not vote for Independence can we be exempted from an Independent Scotland in the event of a Yes vote in September. After all isn't the Yes Campaign's biggest argument that we all deserve to get what we vote for.

You said people didn't vote for the SNP.

The totals at the bottom make it perfectly clear that 108,000 or so voted SNP with Labour second on about 87,000.

Do you need me to directly quote your post?

Edited February 26, 2014 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

Oakster, You stressed young Sir ? Fancy a jagged little Pill ?

Stressed? Nah! Just not prepared to sit quietly whilst 2 posters who don't contribute anything to any debate continually snipe from the sidelines.

It's not just me they are doing it to.

A forum is for discussion.

Either have the courage to form your own opinion and discuss stuff or feck off and leave the rest of us in peace.

Even Dickson has more value than those two roasters (except when he's deliberately trolling or making references to the Nazis) because he'll at least state his beliefs.

[Stuart Dickson]

You said people didn't vote for the SNP.

The totals at the bottom make it perfectly clear that 108,000 or so voted SNP with Labour second on about 87,000.

Do you need me to directly quote your post?

I said we didn't vote for the SNP - we voted for the Union. The majority of Lanarkshire residents who did vote, voted for Unionist parties - not ones on an Independence mandate. That's very clear. It might be interesting to do the same sort of calculations for the rest of Scotland too. I wonder if any region actually voted for Independence?

[oaksoft]

I said we didn't vote for the SNP - we voted for the Union. The majority of Lanarkshire residents who did vote, voted for Unionist parties - not ones on an Independence mandate. That's very clear. It might be interesting to do the same sort of calculations for the rest of Scotland too. I wonder if any region actually voted for Independence?

Are you suggesting every single Tory and Labiour voter wanted the Union?

Polls suggest you are wrong. Almost 30% of them in total support independence and that doesn't include the undecideds.

In short, it's not possible for you to make your assertion based on a General Election result.

BTW the total vote of every other party (12 or so of them) only just exceeded (by a mere 12,000), the SNP vote.

People are smarter than you are giving them credit for.

In a general election supporters of independence will not necessarily vote SNP.

Similarly you're about to find that in the Independence vote, many Labour and Tory voters will vote against their own side but happily return to the fold for the next general election.

Edited February 26, 2014 by oaksoft

[Stuart Dickson]

North Lanarkshire was 115,274 for Independence Parties v 118,286 for Unionist Parties.

South Lanarkshire was 43,840 for Independence Parties v 58,247

I don't know where you were getting your figures from Cockles since your provided them but you are simply wrong. Lanarkshire rejected Independence at the last Scottish Elections - so can we be assured that regardless of the outcome of the referendum that the wishes of our electorate will be honoured and we can remain as part of the UK? After all it's the Natsi argument that we should all believe in local governance.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[oaksoft]

North Lanarkshire was 115,274 for Independence Parties v 118,286 for Unionist Parties.

South Lanarkshire was 43,840 for Independence Parties v 58,247

I don't know where you were getting your figures from Cockles since your provided them but you are simply wrong. Lanarkshire rejected Independence at the last Scottish Elections - so can we be assured that regardless of the outcome of the referendum that the wishes of our electorate will be honoured and we can remain as part of the UK? After all it's the Natsi argument that we should all believe in local governance.

I wonder how many people genuinely confuse general elections with an independence referendum?

Surely it can't be more than 5 ?

[Howard Hughes in BlueSuedeShoes]

The Scottish Labour leader doing her utmost for the Yes campaign.

[oaksoft]

The Scottish Labour leader doing her utmost for the Yes campaign.

That is absolutely unbelievable.

[buddiecat]

I dont know which branch of the civil Service you work in, but surely if we vote yes there will still have to be a certain level of government jobs in your field. I havent had the inclination to read the white thingmy jig that was published but I would imagine that they have thought through the whole DVLA, passport, work and pensions, job centre, national insurance etc. etc. which i would imagine would create quite a few new departments in scotland for things not locally run. Look on the brightside maybe you will get a handsome redundancy package along with the civil service pension and stroll into the same job in the scottish civil service

only in the job 6 years so no big redundancy package and only 6 years pension (modern type,not legacy type which is the much talked about lucrative package which is no longer on offer) thousands of others are on this same package as we work in contact centres covering the whole of the uk, ,jobcentres,passport office and pensions and dvla already have enough staff to cover scotland from existing scottish bases and even they will have less custom as they also cover customers from outside scotland, 75% of contact centre workers will be surplus, plus those who work in benefit delivery centres and also rely on custom from Ruk.therefore there will be no guarantee that a job is there for us and any jobs going will have hundreds of applicants for each post, also the work could be given to private companies who will be reluctant to hire those who are getting on a bit - like me, so i have to vote no to try and preserve my job, in my opinion anyone voting yes is voting people out of work, they wil not want people to lose jobs (with a few exceptions) but will probably not even consider this scenario

[buddiecat]

A westminster committee (cant recall the name) has already stated in print that it will be abolishing the Barnett formula.

From 2015 austerity cuts will see at least £4bn per year less pocket money given to Scotland from Westminster. the current London government has already stated that there is a need for more cuts and "red" Ed Milliband has stated his admiration for thatcher and the need to be as tough as tories in recent weeks.

Ian Davidson, Labour MP for weegie land and chairman of Scottish Select Affairs committee at Westminster has stated that powers will be stripped from Holyrood in event of a no vote.

Just before Christmas House of Lords revoked energy powers from Scotland back to Westminster.

Will that do for starters or do you need more evidence?

With regards civil service jobs there is no reason why they couldn't be "outsourced" from rUK to anywhere else.

There will also be a need to swap posts that are currently centralised in UK - so there will still be demand for civil service posts, just might need to see staff in both Scotland and rUK learn retrained. I don't know the job you do within civil service and this is not meant to necessarily reflect your situation.

austerity cuts are uk wide and not directed at scotland alone, the scrapping of the barnett formula also affects Ruk and not just scotland, in my opinion if there is a no vote then holyrood becomes less tenable as the people will have gone against it's wishes demonstrating a wish for westminster to rule them,so no evidence in those points i'm afraid, and as for the energy powers being revoked i dont see that as punishment, did they say they were being revoked in case scotland votes for independence ?

incidentally i hate politicians and tories in particular but have to put up with them

[buddiecat]

Well we can start with the fact that the Barnett formula is about to get screwed and that we can look forward to many more years of severe budget cuts. That's your starter for 10.

BTW I have no idea why you think legally you'd be out of work.

Who is saying you wouldn't legally be allowed to work in this area?

Who is saying you'd lose your job?

it was me who said it, because i am bound by uk law which is necessary for me to be able to deal with confidential information, if i am no longer part of the uk then i am not bound by uk law and therefore unable to access confidential info on uk residents, which renders me unable to do my job, i know this because i read it every morning when opening my it systems "you are bound by uk law, accessing this system for unlawful reasons blah blah blah"

and see my previous post re the barnett formula - it covers N I and wales also

[salmonbuddie]

There's no such thing as UK law, buddiecat, tell them to stick it!

I work in a government funded industry, too, and there's a slim chance that independence will cost me my job or, more likely, more in tax. I'm willing to take my chances on those because I think independence is the best bet for the future for both my son and my grandson. I also think that the wider social benefits it will bring are worth it, too, and would vote Yes on that basis alone.

[buddiecat]

There's no such thing as UK law, buddiecat, tell them to stick it!

I work in a government funded industry, too, and there's a slim chance that independence will cost me my job or, more likely, more in tax. I'm willing to take my chances on those because I think independence is the best bet for the future for both my son and my grandson. I also think that the wider social benefits it will bring are worth it, too, and would vote Yes on that basis alone.

the point is i am a civil servant for the uk gov and directly employed by them, they will not employ me if i am not a uk citizen and scotland would have more than enough experienced staff to run benefits etc, so some of us will be out of a job, i support my children (even though they are hairy arsed weans now) financially from time to time and would be unable to if i have no job and at 57 going on 58 i dont see much chance of getting a job with equivilant wages

[salmonbuddie]

Nice to see a multi-national like GlaxoSmithKline nailing their colours to the wall and supporting the YES campaign:

And the deal winner.....

I suspect an advertising agency might be getting its jotters in the very near future, especially for using that last image!

[salmonbuddie]

the point is i am a civil servant for the uk gov and directly employed by them, they will not employ me if i am not a uk citizen and scotland would have more than enough experienced staff to run benefits etc, so some of us will be out of a job, i support my children (even though they are hairy arsed weans now) financially from time to time and would be unable to if i have no job and at 57 going on 58 i dont see much chance of getting a job with equivilant wages

Like I say, I'm a quasi civil servant and in the same position as you both work wise and in supporting family from time to time. I'm 55 and could just as easily as you find myself out of a job, for the same reasons. But I'm still voting Yes for the reasons I gave in that last post.

[buddiecat]

Like I say, I'm a quasi civil servant and in the same position as you both work wise and in supporting family from time to time. I'm 55 and could just as easily as you find myself out of a job, for the same reasons. But I'm still voting Yes for the reasons I gave in that last post.

each to his own, but i believe in if it aint broke dont fix it,it works well for my family as it is and i also believe we wont have enough financial reserve or borrowing power to sustain social benefits,which will in turn cause social unrest,that is because nobody has convinced me that we will be able to afford going it alone

[salmonbuddie]

Fair enough on the first bit, and I respect that if that's how you feel, even if if I disagree and think that the problem is that the system IS broke and DOES need fixing!

For the second bit, though, have a look at the figures out there - even the unionist parties admit that Scotland will survive and probably prosper on its own in the event of independence. I think we would see improved social benefits under independence if we implement the kind of thing the Common Weal points us toward.

[saintnextlifetime]

Fair enough on the first bit, and I respect that if that's how you feel, even if if I disagree and think that the problem is that the system IS broke and DOES need fixing!

For the second bit, though, have a look at the figures out there - even the unionist parties admit that Scotland will survive and probably prosper on its own in the event of independence. I think we would see improved social benefits under independence if we implement the kind of thing the Common Weal points us toward.

Do you have any links to that , SB. .

[salmonbuddie]

Here's Cameron for starters:

“Supporters of independence will always cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies, such as Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country” - David Cameron (April 2007)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3639114/Scots-and-English-flourish-in-the-Union.html

And Darling:

"The question is not whether Scotland can survive as a separate state. Of course it could." - Alistair Darling (June 2012)

http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-96#entry1158428

There are others, too, can't be arsed finding them right now.

Edited February 26, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[Guest TPAFKATS]

the point is i am a civil servant for the uk gov and directly employed by them, they will not employ me if i am not a uk citizen and scotland would have more than enough experienced staff to run benefits etc, so some of us will be out of a job, i support my children (even though they are hairy arsed weans now) financially from time to time and would be unable to if i have no job and at 57 going on 58 i dont see much chance of getting a job with equivilant wages

Buddiecat, I can completely understand why people will vote based on how it will directly affect them with regards future employability, employment, wages etc, especially with only single digit years until state pension age.

austerity cuts are uk wide and not directed at scotland alone, the scrapping of the barnett formula also affects Ruk and not just scotland, in my opinion if there is a no vote then holyrood becomes less tenable as the people will have gone against it's wishes demonstrating a wish for westminster to rule them,so no evidence in those points i'm afraid, and as for the energy powers being revoked i dont see that as punishment, did they say they were being revoked in case scotland votes for independence ?

incidentally i hate politicians and tories in particular but have to put up with them

However, this reads like refusing to board a life boat on the titanic in case it also sinks

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Here's Cameron for starters:

“Supporters of independence will always cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies, such as Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country” - David Cameron (April 2007)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3639114/Scots-and-English-flourish-in-the-Union.html

And Darling:

"The question is not whether Scotland can survive as a separate state. Of course it could." - Alistair Darling (June 2012)

http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php/topic/37355-the-referendum-thread/page-96#entry1158428

There are others, too, can't be arsed finding them right now.

It started out as better together - cant go it alone, now its just better together, best of both worlds. All unionist ministers and darling have been flip flopping over the last few months with regards Scotland's capabilities as an independent nation. Cameron finally acknowledged on Monday that rUK wouldn't block Scotland in EU. Hardly surprising as he signed the edinburgh agreement which commits rUK to this, however he and others had been sabre rattling for months. Carmichael still is, although no one really pays any attention to him...