The Referendum Thread

[Stuart Dickson]

I really wish you would stop using that word. Comparing the SNP to one of the most evil tyrannies in history does your argument no good at all.

I think its a fair comparison. After all Salmond and the SNP machine use very similar propaganda to the Nazi's only instead of the Jews being the ones to blame for everything it's England.

[saintnextlifetime]

In fairness, Salmond's comments seem reasonable and balanced (at least in terms of this quote):

" First Minister Alex Salmond described the announcement as a 'tremendous fillip for the workforce and the whole Grangemouth community, following what could have been a potential disaster'.

He said it had been 'a great team effort from all concerned, including the unions and workforce, the management and governments.' "

Yup, iceberg avoided , ship steadied , course reset. .

[saintnextlifetime]

That's what losers always say. Would you expect them to say 'Well, that's us f***ed'? This close to to the Referendum, the apathy shown by SNP supporters must have frightened the brown stuff out of Salmon.

Aye , right enough. .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I said I wouldn't get involved in this debate but I would just like to thank the good people of Dunfermline for burying the facile irrelevancy that is the Referendum. Just chuck it and save the money. It's a foregone conclusion.

Rick, don't you realise that there are Labour supporters and voters in favour of independence?

[RickMcD]

Rick, don't you realise that there are Labour supporters and voters in favour of independence?

Of course I realise that but in my naivety I had imagined that all SNP voters wanted independence. With the Referendum less than eleven months away I would have thought the SNP would have been mobilising their troops big style. Maybe they have started to believe their own rhetoric and have taken their eye off the ball. I know that by-elections don't always reflect real trends but they do sometimes. I believe Dunfermline was a significant result. It was good for Labour and it might be the beginning of a downward trend for the SNP.

For what its worth, and I have been observing elections for longer than most of our posters, I firmly believe the Scottish electorate will go along with Labour when push comes to shove and that will be a huge factor in the Referendum. But who knows. I don't vote so I keep being told I'm not entitled to an opinion.

[faraway saint]

Of course I realise that but in my naivety I had imagined that all SNP voters wanted independence. With the Referendum less than eleven months away I would have thought the SNP would have been mobilising their troops big style. Maybe they have started to believe their own rhetoric and have taken their eye off the ball. I know that by-elections don't always reflect real trends but they do sometimes. I believe Dunfermline was a significant result. It was good for Labour and it might be the beginning of a downward trend for the SNP.

For what its worth, and I have been observing elections for longer than most of our posters, I firmly believe the Scottish electorate will go along with Labour when push comes to shove and that will be a huge factor in the Referendum. But who knows. I don't vote so I keep being told I'm not entitled to an opinion.

So shut up then.

;)

[Charlotte Saint]

I think its a fair comparison. After all Salmond and the SNP machine use very similar propaganda to the Nazi's only instead of the Jews being the ones to blame for everything it's England.

You really think it's fair to compare the SNP with a party that cost how many lives in Europe and elsewhere? 40million? 50 million? Don't be stupid.

[RickMcD]

So shut up then.

;)

If we all shut it every time we were told to on this forum, Div would have have shut it down years ago. With a few exceptions, most of us have the hide of a rhino. Some of us are hung like a rhino too.

PS I don't have a clue how rhinos are hung-- should have stuck with a donkey

[faraway saint]

If we all shut it every time we were told to on this forum, Div would have have shut it down years ago. With a few exceptions, most of us have the hide of a rhino. Some of us are hung like a rhino too.

PS I don't have a clue how rhinos are hung-- should have stuck with a mouse

Very honest of you Ricardo.

[Stuart Dickson]

You really think it's fair to compare the SNP with a party that cost how many lives in Europe and elsewhere? 40million? 50 million? Don't be stupid.

Yeah. It only seems ridiculous because Scotland doesn't have the potential 1930s Germany had to become an industrial power. The Yes campaign is built on two things - the need to blame England for everything no matter how right or wrong it is, and the goading and bullying of an electorate by claiming anything other than a yes vote is an act of cowardice.

[FTOF]

You really think it's fair to compare the SNP with a party that cost how many lives in Europe and elsewhere? 40million? 50 million? Don't be stupid.

Oh, he's way past that level.

[salmonbuddie]

Yeah. It only seems ridiculous because Scotland doesn't have the potential 1930s Germany had to become an industrial power. The Yes campaign is built on two things - the need to blame England for everything no matter how right or wrong it is, and the goading and bullying of an electorate by claiming anything other than a yes vote is an act of cowardice.

You have made some really stupid statements in your time on here, StuD, but comparing the Yes campaign to the Nazis really trumps all of them.

Go and have a look at the positive, yes positive, campaign being run by YesScotland then come back, admit your mistake and apologise to all the decent, hardworking and genuine people you've besmirched.

[salmonbuddie]

oh well thats it decided then, and btw prozac and tizer - a heady mix

I didn't say it was decided, just pointing out a fact.

And my apologies for making full use of the English language, I'll be sure to dumb things down for you next time.

[salmonbuddie]

 

Neither does describing those that would vote for the Union as 'scared' or that the whole campaign is based on 'fear'.

 

Not voting for change due to a complete lack of tangible evidence (yet - hopefully evidence will come through the closer we get) as opposed to speculation that things will be better in the long term, is NOT the same thing as 'fear'.

 

Each side are as bad as each other on the political front when it comes to 'buzz words' and spin, neither worse and neither better. Thankfully I can see through most of the bullsh*t.

Project Fear is BT's own name for what they're doing, ZA, not the Yes campaign's.

[zurich_allan]

Project Fear is BT's own name for what they're doing, ZA, not the Yes campaign's.

Mibees aye, Mibees no, but regardless of that it is still a wee catchphrase that is used and not accurate. That fact doesn't change regardless when it is used as a rather pathetic veiled insult by one side against the other. As I already said, each side is as bad as each other with the immature name calling, it's quite pathetic for adults to get involved in. I for one refuse.

[salmonbuddie]

Unfortunately it is very accurate and pinpoints exactly how BT are playing it.

[oaksoft]

Of course I realise that but in my naivety I had imagined that all SNP voters wanted independence.

Surprisingly that isn't true.

There are plenty of SNP supporters who actually don't want independence at all.

There are plenty of Labour supporters who DO want independence.

This is NOT about Labour or SNP. This is about something which really goes beyond party politics.

You and Dicky are absolutely obsessed with the SNP and Salmond in particular to the point where you don't seem capable of separating the issues.

[RickMcD]

Surprisingly that isn't true.

There are plenty of SNP supporters who actually don't want independence at all.

There are plenty of Labour supporters who DO want independence.

This is NOT about Labour or SNP. This is about something which really goes beyond party politics.

You and Dicky are absolutely obsessed with the SNP and Salmond in particular to the point where you don't seem capable of separating the issues.

The one thing I can, almost, admire you for is that you once admitted on here you didn't care if Scotland was going to be worse off after independence you would still go for it. At least you were honest. I think plenty of the protagonists are lying to their back teeth. You just can't take on board that there are a lot of guys like me who think all politicians are lying bastards when it suits them. When whips say 'Shit', down go the MP's knickers. I think Salmond is a smug, conceited arsehole who is full of his own importance. Like a lot of MP's, but a bit more annoying than most. If you have been paying attention, I agree with very little that StuDick says.

[Bud the Baker]

Surprisingly that isn't true.

There are plenty of SNP supporters who actually don't want independence at all.

There are plenty of Labour supporters who DO want independence.

This is NOT about Labour or SNP. This is about something which really goes beyond party politics.

You and Dicky are absolutely obsessed with the SNP and Salmond in particular to the point where you don't seem capable of separating the issues.

[Bud the Baker]

Yeah. It only seems ridiculous because Scotland doesn't have the potential 1930s Germany had to become an industrial power. The Yes campaign is built on two things - the need to blame England for everything no matter how right or wrong it is, and the goading and bullying of an electorate by claiming anything other than a yes vote is an act of cowardice.

No, it is ridiculous.

There's a general rule of thumb that says when you bring Hitler & the Nazis into an online debate you've lost.

[oaksoft]

The one thing I can, almost, admire you for is that you once admitted on here you didn't care if Scotland was going to be worse off after independence you would still go for it. At least you were honest. I think plenty of the protagonists are lying to their back teeth. You just can't take on board that there are a lot of guys like me who think all politicians are lying bastards when it suits them. When whips say 'Shit', down go the MP's knickers. I think Salmond is a smug, conceited arsehole who is full of his own importance. Like a lot of MP's, but a bit more annoying than most. If you have been paying attention, I agree with very little that StuDick says.

And if you've been paying attention you'll know I spent an entire thread recently trying to convince Dickson that ALL politicians of ALL parties were bastards.

It's irrelevant whether or not we are worse off under independence for two reasons:-

1) We can't know for sure either way as we cant predict the future so any "proof" either way will be flawed.

2) Scotland simply needs to be making it's own decisions rather than letting another country do it. That is just logic. Some of those decisions will work and some won't. It's precisely the same thing as leaving home when you hit 21. Mu may well look after your money better. You'll have a better standard of house probably and she'll do your washing and cook your tea. Are you seriously suggesting you'd stick with mum rather than get out there and take responsibility for your own decisions on ALL aspects of your life? This is how I see the debate. It's between those who want to be responsible for their decisions and those who want a fall guy if it all goes tits.

[buddiecat]

I didn't say it was decided, just pointing out a fact.

And my apologies for making full use of the English language, I'll be sure to dumb things down for you next time.

aw grow up it was a joke

[Callum Gilhooley]

Neither does describing those that would vote for the Union as 'scared' or that the whole campaign is based on 'fear'.

Not voting for change due to a complete lack of tangible evidence (yet - hopefully evidence will come through the closer we get) as opposed to speculation that things will be better in the long term, is NOT the same thing as 'fear'.

Each side are as bad as each other on the political front when it comes to 'buzz words' and spin, neither worse and neither better. Thankfully I can see through most of the bullsh*t.

So you can see through the bullshit but cant see the difference between calling someone a Nazi & calling someone scared ?

[zurich_allan]

So you can see through the bullshit but cant see the difference between calling someone a Nazi & calling someone scared ?

Of course I can see the difference, I didn't compare the two - you might think I did, but I didn't. What I did was give another example of inappropriateness from the other side, I didn't rank them. Two separate examples is not the same thing as a comparison - back to school.

[Stuart Dickson]

And if you've been paying attention you'll know I spent an entire thread recently trying to convince Dickson that ALL politicians of ALL parties were bastards.

It's irrelevant whether or not we are worse off under independence for two reasons:-

1) We can't know for sure either way as we cant predict the future so any "proof" either way will be flawed.

2) Scotland simply needs to be making it's own decisions rather than letting another country do it. That is just logic. Some of those decisions will work and some won't. It's precisely the same thing as leaving home when you hit 21. Mu may well look after your money better. You'll have a better standard of house probably and she'll do your washing and cook your tea. Are you seriously suggesting you'd stick with mum rather than get out there and take responsibility for your own decisions on ALL aspects of your life? This is how I see the debate. It's between those who want to be responsible for their decisions and those who want a fall guy if it all goes tits.

1. True, you can't predict the future, however you can study the form and make your best educated guess based on past results. In this case we know that prior to the Union Scotland was an industrial backwater, a bankrupt nation, and a nation ripped apart by internal prejudice and bigotry and constant wars whether they be between clans, or the English. We also know that the subsequent 300 years of Union with the English has seen our greatest prosperity .

2. Scotland will never "make it's own decisions" regardless of whether it's governed through Westminster or Brussels. Especially not since the Yes campaign are seeking support on the basis that they will now seek membership of the EU and of NATO and they will seek to retain the pound.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Stuart Dickson