The Referendum Thread

[Drew]

If it wasn't for his bravado and an utterly crap innings by the likes of Blair - and a disproportionate power exerted by London, Eck would never have had his chance in the watery Scottish sun.

So there you have it.

In one sentence, Bluto has completely disregarded the democratic will of the Scottish people in opting to elect a government in Edinburgh who had a referendum for Independence as a cornerstone of their manifesto. Goodness me no, it had nothing to do with the people of Scotland exercising their democratic right, it was down to Salmond's bluster and the fact that Blair is a c**t.

Dearie me, mate, true colours and all that....

Edited March 12, 2014 by Drew

[Stuart Dickson]

So there you have it.

In one sentence, Bluto has completely disregarded the democratic will of the Scottish people in opting to elect a government in Edinburgh who had a referendum for Independence as a cornerstone of their manifesto. Goodness me no, it had nothing to do with the people of Scotland exercising their democratic right, it was down to Salmond's bluster and the fact that Blair is a c**t.

Dearie me, mate, true colours and all that....

But Drew, Scots excersized their democratic rights in the last General Election as they always do. The SNP won just 6 seats, down from the 7 they previously had, and managed only 19.9% of the vote on a 63.8% turnout. 42% voted Labour, 18.9% voted Liberal, and 16.7% voted Conservative. However you look at it in the last Westminster Elections a huge number of Scots voted for Unionist Parties.

Now those positions appear to be backed up by just about every Independence Poll we've had since then. When you consider the fact that there is an unpopular coalition in power at Westminster you would expect a small percentage increase for the side deemed not to be taking the government stance. The latest poll shows that 53% of those surveyed will vote to stay in the Union, 12% haven't made up their mind, and just 35% of Scots have indicted that they would vote Yes.

Now I'm enjoying this whole referendum thing right now because it has politicised a huge part of Scotland even if the debate is piss poor and many Yes voters have become entrenched through their own ignorance but even I can acknowledge that this is a huge waste of time, effort and public money and surely even the most ardent Natsi would have to admit that it has injected a high level of uncertainty into the Scottish Business Community just at a time when the conditions for economic growth around the UK has never been better.

If you look at the waste of money element on it's own merit, for example, it's been revealed by Nicola Sturgeon that the whole nonsense surrounding the Independence White Paper cost the UK taxpayer some £1.3m. That's the taxpayer - not the Yes Campaign who should normally fund their electioneering literature. Just think, that money could have been better spent paying for Mr Salmond to do his next three American junkets where he returns empty handed, just like the last time.....oh wait.....

Edited March 12, 2014 by Stuart Dickson

[Denbud]

I'm sure you would not be so disingenuous as to suggest that the potential dismemberment of a settled state is solely going to impact on the disruptive influence attempting to cause that dismemberment?

In point of fact, I wasn't referring to myself, alone. I am not as selfish as a separatist.

I was referring to the many Scots currently living and working abroad, sending money home, intending to return to their families and live out their lives, there. I have been made aware that many of them are extremely pished aff with this SHITE state of affairs to be in, salmonbuddie, and all the fresh foreign air in the world won't make them f**king happier!

Eck IS YOUR leader. He leads the Scottish Government in this precipitate and doomed move in search of Separation. If it wasn't for his bravado and an utterly crap innings by the likes of Blair - and a disproportionate power exerted by London, Eck would never have had his chance in the watery Scottish sun. But he has - and so you need to make the most of him.

I bet Wallace wisnae dissed by his supporters.

Though Jesus certainly was...

...there's precedent.

I spent 17 years living and working outside the UK, I always maintained my main home in Scotland payed whatever taxes were due in Scotland and was registered to vote in Scotland. If you make the choice to work away from here and no longer register as having your main residence here then you have made a choice the fact that you may intend to come back here and live in years to come doesn't give you the right to choose how to vote in the here and now. I at one time thought maybe I would retire to spain at no time when I was thinking this did I have any inclination that I should have a right to change the direction the spanish people take just because I may go there to live in the future.

You have obviously made the choice to live and earn down south for the past few years and as such have probably been registered to vote where your home address is, so have in essence made choices for the future of the area in which you presently lived but you think that it is right that you or others like you should be able to make choices for where you may live in the future. I think as someone has mentioned previously if you are registered to vote in scotland (no matter colour, creed, nationality or religion)you will have the right to choose, even if you decided then to emegrate a year later

kew, cue que the spelling police cause my spelling is shiite

[Drew]

But Drew, Scots excersized their democratic rights in the last General Election as they always do. The SNP won just 6 seats, down from the 7 they previously had, and managed only 19.9% of the vote on a 63.8% turnout. 42% voted Labour, 18.9% voted Liberal, and 16.7% voted Conservative. However you look at it in the last Westminster Elections a huge number of Scots voted for Unionist Parties.

Sorry Stuart, but this isn't terribly relevant.

Scots aren't as daft as some people seem intent on portaying us as. We are all too aware that a few more SNP members in seats in Westminster will make very little impact in terms of how we are governed from London.

I voted SNP in the last Scottish election. I had two overriding reasons for doing so:

1. In order to secure a referendum on Scottish Independence;

2. What were the alternatives? Scottish Labour are a basket case, the Lib Dems are irrelevant, and the Tories are beneath contempt.

The above reasons are ranked in order of importance, incidentally.

Is is spurious nonsense to draw upon the fortunes of the SNP in UK elections as a basis for undermining the fact that Scottish people voted them into power in Scotland in the full knowledge that this provided them with a mandate to hold an Independence referendum. Are you denying this to be the case? Good luck with that.

[salmonbuddie]

Denbud's got it right. I worked abroad, in the EU, paid UK tax/NI and maintained my voting rights. If you've chosen not to and expect to have a say because you might come home eventually then you're on a hiding to nothing.

Edited March 12, 2014 by salmonbuddie

[bluto]

So there you have it.

In one sentence, Bluto has completely disregarded the democratic will of the Scottish people in opting to elect a government in Edinburgh who had a referendum for Independence as a cornerstone of their manifesto. Goodness me no, it had nothing to do with the people of Scotland exercising their democratic right, it was down to Salmond's bluster and the fact that Blair is a c**t.

Dearie me, mate, true colours and all that....

Twist the words and play the man, ignore any salient point being made.

The democratic right that was exercised WAS influenced by the factors I quoted, whether you believe that to be the case or not.

The SNP benefited from a disenchanted electorate but, more importantly, the SNP did not win an overwhelming majority solely on the strength of one manifesto commitment - though I am slowly understanding you may be sufficiently myopic to have voted for that, alone.

If you have any desire for debate, (though I suspect not), you really need to be more open to opinion that differs from yours.

[Stuart Dickson]

Sorry Stuart, but this isn't terribly relevant.

Scots aren't as daft as some people seem intent on portaying us as. We are all too aware that a few more SNP members in seats in Westminster will make very little impact in terms of how we are governed from London.

I voted SNP in the last Scottish election. I had two overriding reasons for doing so:

1. In order to secure a referendum on Scottish Independence;

2. What were the alternatives? Scottish Labour are a basket case, the Lib Dems are irrelevant, and the Tories are beneath contempt.

The above reasons are ranked in order of importance, incidentally.

Is is spurious nonsense to draw upon the fortunes of the SNP in UK elections as a basis for undermining the fact that Scottish people voted them into power in Scotland in the full knowledge that this provided them with a mandate to hold an Independence referendum. Are you denying this to be the case? Good luck with that.

Well funnily enough I reckon most Scots who did vote in the Scottish Elections - and remember the turnout was pathetic at just over 50% - used the basis that Scottish Labour was a basket case, the Lib Dems were irrelevant and the xenophobic practice of Scots just not voting Conservative for the fear of the shame of someone finding out. I seem to remember that there was a poll at the time that suggested that many of the SNP voters on that day actually had little interest in a referendum or on splitting the UK.

[Drew]

The democratic right that was exercised WAS influenced by the factors I quoted, whether you believe that to be the case or not.

Have you undertaken an exhaustive academic study in this area?

You are coming across as increasingly dismissive of Scottish people, I'm afraid.

It seems, by your reasoning, that we've all been taken in by the Svengalian figure that is Alex Salmond, and remain trapped in a self-spun web of bitterness and reproachfulness directed at Tony Blair. Such is our collective malaise, we are not capable of independent rational thought.

We are a simple folk, 'tis true.

Your suggestion that I cannot accept that others might have a view differing from my own is ironic and laughable in the extreme.

Oh, and if you are concerned about your words being twisted, stop posting bombastic riddles.

[Drew]

Well funnily enough I reckon most Scots who did vote in the Scottish Elections - and remember the turnout was pathetic at just over 50% - used the basis that Scottish Labour was a basket case, the Lib Dems were irrelevant and the xenophobic practice of Scots just not voting Conservative for the fear of the shame of someone finding out. I seem to remember that there was a poll at the time that suggested that many of the SNP voters on that day actually had little interest in a referendum or on splitting the UK.

You've completely missed the point here, Stuart.

However you choose to dress it up, this referendum is taking place against the backdrop of an entirely legitimate democratic mandate. By extension, I will fully accept the outcome (oh, and I won't whine about turnout).

[bluto]

Just how big is your sample of Scots abroad that you say are "pushed aff"? Feck me you are sounding more like Dicko everyday

I was riffing on a quote from trainspotting, that obviously ye didnae get... so it failed.

I'm sure you know this, but Wallace wisnae "dissed" he was betrayed by his one time supporter and ally Sir John Monteith at Robroyston.

But I'm sure you know that....

Or was it at the behest of Robert de Brus? We don't really know, for sure.

Point I was making - here is Eck being dissed by the people who elected him and who are betraying him, disowning him before he has led them to the Promised Land - probably due to lack of confidence and getting their kicks in early.

I don't trust politicians and bankers. I know I'm not alone.

No you're not.

I do however trust the people of Scotland to be able to stand together a build a brighter future for the people who decide to live here.

Are you including Scottish bankers and Scottish politicians in this trust? If not, then that would be racist: if so, then there's a logic problem and it's the one that worries me more - turning your back on current problems will not solve them, if you really on the same fallible people.

There have been significant changes in the diversity of our nation through immigration since you (and I) left to work down south. To counter your argument, I've had the pleasure of listening to their experiences and how they believe that independence can only be good for everyone living here.

I still work in Scotland and I visit often, so I don't see a point to this comment or what follows - I have no argument with that.

We are all Jock Tamson's Bairns....Scotland is a welcoming a nation, diverse in culture, rich in history and many of us are confident in being able to shape our future.

This is Scotlands story.

and

We should be proud of our past and believe that we can improve in the future.

I don't see that happening by staying within the UK. Sadly too many people are scared by change and I don't believe we will get Independence because of that fear of the unknown.

Salmond and some of his policies I don't agree with, but I'm not voting him or his cohorts. I'm voting for change to try and make a better future for my kids and future generations.

The Faslane Peace Camp has been operating continously in different locations since 1982.

How good would it be to finally the rid ourselves of WMD? That would be a proud legacy to leave my grandkids.

Change is uncomfortable for most people in any society. It can however be the most liberating thing for people to do.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Dicko thinks it's xenophobic for scots not to vote tory. More quality input...NOT!

[bluto]

Have you undertaken an exhaustive academic study in this area?

No. So I guess you have, as you must be more right in your opinion than I am. Eck postponed this as long as possible cos he never believed it achievable, like Cameron has done with the Tory election promise.

You are coming across as increasingly dismissive of Scottish people, I'm afraid.

Again, no. I am a Scot, lest ye forget. I live with a Scot, my family is Scottish - and I have a great deal of faith in how the majority of Scots will vote on Pretendypence.

However, I am being swayed to feel that way about the separatists on this particular thread.

It seems, by your reasoning, that we've all been taken in by the Svengalian figure that is Alex Salmond, and remain trapped in a self-spun web of bitterness and reproachfulness directed at Tony Blair. Such is our collective malaise, we are not capable of independent rational thought.

Your suggestion that I cannot accept that others might have a view differing from my own is ironic and laughable in the extreme.

I am simply reacting to the posts you make - and the tone that suffuses them. You do not welcome non-separatists.

We are a simple folk, 'tis true.

Oh, and if you are concerned about your words being twisted, stop posting bombastic riddles.

There you go with that 'tone' thing again - to which I fear I surrender and respond in kind. It's bad of me, but there you go...

My apologies for hopelessly overestimating any capacity for understanding.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

Suppose with it being a political thread with different opinions arguments will break out. It's the scare mongering that gets me by so called Scottish companies. You don't get Tesco or the Asada's of this world saying they will move out of Scotland. I'm seriously thinking of closing down our accounts with the Royal bank and switching to bank of Scotland.Salmond Is an extremely clever man many don't give him credit just I hate him. Yet he broke the labour strong hold in Scotland which deserves credit alone just for that as Labour are not the party it used to be. I just hope Salmond has an ace card up his sleeve and is keeping it for the right moment.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Lochwinnoch Saint

[RickMcD]

So there you have it.

In one sentence, Bluto has completely disregarded the democratic will of the Scottish people in opting to elect a government in Edinburgh who had a referendum for Independence as a cornerstone of their manifesto. Goodness me no, it had nothing to do with the people of Scotland exercising their democratic right, it was down to Salmond's bluster and the fact that Blair is a c**t.

Dearie me, mate, true colours and all that....

What happens next year if Labour re-establishes a comfortable majority?

[Denbud]

What happens next year if Labour re-establishes a comfortable majority?

then there has been a democratic vote and we have to live with it until the next oppertunity to change

[Stuart Dickson]

Dicko thinks it's xenophobic for scots not to vote tory. More quality input...NOT!

It is if your sole reason for writing off the Tories is that they are all "Eton Toffs" - which plenty do.

[RickMcD]

then there has been a democratic vote and we have to live with it until the next oppertunity to change

I wasn't talking about the Independence vote. We know how that will go. I simply mean that surely we're back to Maverick.

[Stuart Dickson]

Suppose with it being a political thread with different opinions arguments will break out. It's the scare mongering that gets me by so called Scottish companies. You don't get Tesco or the Asada's of this world saying they will move out of Scotland. I'm seriously thinking of closing down our accounts with the Royal bank and switching to bank of Scotland.Salmond Is an extremely clever man many don't give him credit just I hate him. Yet he broke the labour strong hold in Scotland which deserves credit alone just for that as Labour are not the party it used to be. I just hope Salmond has an ace card up his sleeve and is keeping it for the right moment.

That'll be the same Bank of Scotland that was taken over by Lloyds Banking Group in 2008. Lloyd Banking Groups Head Office isn't in Scotland

[Drew]

What happens next year if Labour re-establishes a comfortable majority?

In what sense?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

It is if your sole reason for writing off the Tories is that they are all "Eton Toffs" - which plenty do.

Don't be silly, or rather don't be sillier than normal.

You obviously know all these "plenty" who have this one reason?

People don't vote tory because of their policies and principles ( as much as they have principles). The Eton Toffs part is a by product.

BTW, Eton Toffs are neither a nation or a race which makes your xenophobic comment just another attempt at mudslinging.

[RickMcD]

In what sense?

What do you mean sense? I used to think you talked sense but you must have noticed by now that I'm not alone in thinking that you've grown blinkers. We now know that you voted SNP at the last election so whose arse were you kissing before Salmond's? If you've been paying attention you'll know that I don't vote before you ask. You have adopted a sneering, superior sense of your own superiority. Don't worry, some of your acolytes will spring to your defence.

I don't feel any need to explain 'sense' to you. It was a straightforward question. There could be multiple answers.

[Drew]

What do you mean sense? I used to think you talked sense but you must have noticed by now that I'm not alone in thinking that you've grown blinkers. We now know that you voted SNP at the last election so whose arse were you kissing before Salmond's? If you've been paying attention you'll know that I don't vote before you ask. You have adopted a sneering, superior sense of your own superiority. Don't worry, some of your acolytes will spring to your defence.

I don't feel any need to explain 'sense' to you. It was a straightforward question. There could be multiple answers.

FFS, this is a wind-up, right?

Are you genuinely taking issue with me simply asking you to clarify something so I could answer you properly? Could I have asked it in a more inoccuous, reasonable way?

ETA: seriously, I'm utterly baffled by your post.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Drew

[pozbaird]

What happens if Labour re-establish a majority in the future? I don't know. I'd be too busy thinking 'Fcuk sake, Joanne Lamont is now head honcho.'

On another pressing matter, aren't Eton Toffs some kind of sweets?

Edited March 12, 2014 by pozbaird

[RickMcD]

What happens if Labour re-establish a majority in the future? I don't know. I'd be too busy thInking 'Fcuk sake, Joanne Lamont is now head honcho.'

On another pressing matter, aren't Eton Toffs some kind of sweets?

Good question, Poz. If as expected there is a No vote in the referendum, then it's academic. It will make next year's general election interesting. It looks like the coalition government are doing pretty well so far as the economy is concerned. Nobody is saying it is fantastic but it's a lot better than was forecast and better than most of our fellow Europeans. Still a long way to go but normally the economy counts massively. A week in politics as you know is a long time. The next six months will be an eternity and the general election will be after that,

The Eton Toffs are a shower of usually spoiled rich kids who think they have a God given right to rule the world. A lot of them are tossers but some are actually quite talented. Ex pupils include Hugh Laurie, Humphrey Lyttleton, Bear Grylls, Ranulph Fiennes, David Cameron and Boris Johnson. An eclectic bunch.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Danny Alexander, chief secretary to the treasury said today;

"whatever the Scottish government says now, the government of an independent Scotland would be forced to raise taxes and cut public services. We are better off together."

Alistair Darling, chairman of Better Together said today;

"If Scotland was independent today we would have no option but to cut spending on services like schools and hospitals or put up taxes – or probably both. Today as part of the UK we don't have to do that."

Quoted in the media including all the major newspapers and both STV and BBC. Not only is there a level of irony that our resident Billy Liar character (yes its you thicko dicko) would be proud of but also none of these journalists or editors seems fit to mention the "austerity" cuts to public services that the uk has been undertaking for the last few years?????????

You couldn't make this shit up!

Edited March 12, 2014 by TPAFKATS