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Lex

How Big A Club Are We?

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Yeah I made some generalizations - you can't have a topic like this and not do so. I said Dundee Utd. were the biggest of the Tier 3 teams and also that Morton were the ones currently in most danger of losing this status. My point is that teams in a Tier have more in common with other teams in that tier than with teams in other tiers regardless of current fluctuations in form.

Like I've said Dundee Utd. are the biggest of the 3rd Tier clubs in my classification but they've struggles with debt in recent years and have just been bailed out by fans taking over the bank debt. Going back to the 90's when they were relegated they didn't win the old First Division and IIRC it took a last minute equalizer in the play-offs before they beat Thistle in extra time to get them back into the last but one incarnation of the top flight whereas a couple of seasons later Hibs won the same division by over 20 points. Tier 2 teams (like Hibs) will bounce back from relegation in a season or so whereas teams from the third Tier might not and may be forced to spend the best part of a decade in the First Division (like us in the '90's), or Championship as it is now called. OK Hearts may be an exception next season due to Rangers but these are truly exceptional circumstances.

My main point is that trying to base who is the biggest club between ourselves Killie, Motherwell & The Fakes based on trophies some of which were won before WW2 instead of whether a club can currently support full-time football is flawed.

Putting United below the other city clubs just because they needed a playoff to come straight back up is a tad harsh IMO. Surely trophies are more important than how you got promoted back to the top flight? Weren't Aberdeen saved from relegation by reconstruction or something one year?

The city clubs will almost always be in the top flight. Amazingly, next year two of the six biggest clubs in the country will be outside the top league, that opens up a few doors for the leading provincial clubs like ourselves.

We could use only trophies won in the modern era if you prefer, say since the advent of the Scottish Premier Division in 1975, it actually works out better for us. Us and Killie have won two since then, Motherwell one. Clubs like Thistle, Morton, St Johnstone (obviously), Falkirk, Dundee and Dunfermline haven't won any honours in the modern era. Personally I would say that it's disrespectful to our team of 1926 or any team of that era to discount their glorious achievement because of when it happened.

The point is, however you want to cut the cake, be that total trophies, post war trophies, modern era trophies, we come out ahead of every club in the tier below us.

It's not just trophies either. Despite having a pretty dreadful league campaign last season we had a higher average league attendance than every club I listed (Apart from Dundee, but including St Johnstone who equalled their highest ever finish of 3rd last term). Imagine we had finished 3rd last year? I think our average would have been near the 6000 mark.

I'm not saying Killie us and Well are much bigger than these clubs, but there is a clear and discernible difference between us and them, whatever barometer of club size you choose to use.

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clubs like Kilie, st j and falkirk, are similar or smaller than us in terms of catchment area, but they actually have the potential to be biggerbecuase they are not so close to the ugly sisters in geographical terms

the worrying thing for me is that we had a bounce in the 70s as renagers went into a bit of a slump, but we are seeing no such bounce just now even though crowds at parkhead and ibrox are much diminished

i think that the problem may well be Paisley losing some of it's individuality and identity in the last decades. Many people go to glasgow for work, their shopping, restauarants, nights out, theatres, clubbing, etc and dont identify with Paisley a s a town in it's own right even if it is the place they live in

I think the re-definiton of the west of scotland conurbation over the last 40 years has taken the heart out of many of the once-proud burghs and that has affected thesize of our club. 30 years ago we were high up in the second tier, now we are low-middling in the third tier in terms of overall size/importance.

Edited by beyond our ken

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How can the current "Rangers" be bigger than St Mirren? They have less chance than St Mirren of winning the league title, less chance of playing in the Champions League, and historically all they've won to date is one Fourth Tier League Title.

Lets face it most of this thread is full of the defeatist shite that kills Scottish Football. It ranks alongside football managers and football chairmen who class a successful season as one where you don't get relegated, or one where you've targeted a top six finish. AIm to win the league title every year and if you fail and finished second, third or fourth don't beat yourself up about it - just learn from where you went wrong and set about trying to win the league again next year.

We all know that although money can be a major factor in determining success, but while that is true it hasn't stopped Aberdeen beating Celtic recently, it didn't stop Albion Rovers from putting Motherwell out of the Scottish Cup and it hasn't stopped sides like QoS beating St Mirren.in the League Cup and drawing in the Scottish.

When talking about how 'Big' a club is I think it has got to be based on long term data not just the fact that Rangers are currently in a financial mess and a few leagues below us. In 10 years time they will most likely be back to being the 1st/2nd biggest team in Scotland. Same goes for your comment about Aberdeen beating Celtic etc.. by that logic we are one of the biggest teams in the world last season because we beat Celtic and they beat Barcelona.

I think teams like Aberdeen and Dundee Utd are on the way up both on the park and off it. The city of Aberdeen has obviously enjoyed an oil and gas fuelled population boom which is only going to improve their already large fanbase in years to come and they are well on their way to winning some major silverware this season.

As for us, hopefully we'll get a generation of new St Mirren fans with the cup win and the fact that Rangers aren't as glamorous an option to support anymore.

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Putting United below the other city clubs just because they needed a playoff to come straight back up is a tad harsh IMO. Surely trophies are more important than how you got promoted back to the top flight? Weren't Aberdeen saved from relegation by reconstruction or something one year?

The city clubs will almost always be in the top flight. Amazingly, next year two of the six biggest clubs in the country will be outside the top league, that opens up a few doors for the leading provincial clubs like ourselves.

We could use only trophies won in the modern era if you prefer, say since the advent of the Scottish Premier Division in 1975, it actually works out better for us. Us and Killie have won two since then, Motherwell one. Clubs like Thistle, Morton, St Johnstone (obviously), Falkirk, Dundee and Dunfermline haven't won any honours in the modern era. Personally I would say that it's disrespectful to our team of 1926 or any team of that era to discount their glorious achievement because of when it happened.

The point is, however you want to cut the cake, be that total trophies, post war trophies, modern era trophies, we come out ahead of every club in the tier below us.

It's not just trophies either. Despite having a pretty dreadful league campaign last season we had a higher average league attendance than every club I listed (Apart from Dundee, but including St Johnstone who equalled their highest ever finish of 3rd last term). Imagine we had finished 3rd last year? I think our average would have been near the 6000 mark.

I'm not saying Killie us and Well are much bigger than these clubs, but there is a clear and discernible difference between us and them, whatever barometer of club size you choose to use.

In 1999/00 when we won the First Division Aberdeen who finished bottom of the Premier plus Dunfermline & Falkirk (second & third in the First Division) would have gone into a 3-way play off with 2 clubs going into the SPL and 1 club to Division 1 - these play-offs were scrapped because Brockville didn't come up to scratch as it didn't when Motherwell were bottom of the SPL a few seasons later. Had Aberdeen been relegated I suspect they would have won the First Division with some ease.

I don't reckon I'm being disrespectful to the 1926 team when I question it's relevance in judging our current status within Scottish football.

I understand the points your making I just don't fully agree with them, I guess this is just another one of those topics where we'll have to accept we disagree.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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clubs like Kilie, st j and falkirk, are similar or smaller than us in terms of catchment area, but they actually have the potential to be biggerbecuase they are not so close to the ugly sisters in geographical terms

the worrying thing for me is that we had a bounce in the 70s as renagers went into a bit of a slump, but we are seeing no such bounce just now even though crowds at parkhead and ibrox are much diminished

i think that the problem may well be Paisley losing some of it's individuality and identity in the last decades. Many people go to glasgow for work, their shopping, restauarants, nights out, theatres, clubbing, etc and dont identify with Paisley a s a town in it's own right even if it is the place they live in

I think the re-definiton of the west of scotland conurbation over the last 40 years has taken the heart out of many of the once-proud burghs and that has affected thesize of our club. 30 years ago we were high up in the second tier, now we are low-middling in the third tier in terms of overall size/importance.

Surely not.

When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's Paisley was no more isolated from Glasgow than it is today. Indeed after the deregulation of the buses you could get a bus from Paisley to Glasgow just about every 5 minutes. Sometimes 3 or 4 of them would come at exactly the same time. I stayed in Hillington - everyone still knew where the Paisley boundary was - at Hawkhead Road - and everyone knew where the Glasgow boundary started on Paisley Road West, just west of Crookston Road. I'd wander over the boundary to go to Stereo One for my records, to go to the pictures at the Kelburn, and I'd get along to Love Street for every home match. I'd even go to Elderslie and Johnstone to go swimming. Just as regularly I'd go in the other direction too. Glasgow was great for a night out, if you were taking a girl for a meal or to go shopping when you needed something fashionable to wear - cause Paisley was f**king dire for that.

Now OK back then we didn't have a Silverburn or a Braehead but I can't see the relevance in the ease of getting around to falling supporter numbers at Greenhill Road. Instead I think that the simple explanation as to why St Mirren aren't seeing a bounce in attendance figures despite the collapse of Rangers, and the falling attendances at Celtic, is because quite frankly a day out at Greenhill Road looks horribly overpriced for the lack of quality and entertainment that you get on the park.

The reason Killie, and St Johnstone have a better wages to turnover ratio is because both clubs have expanded their business. It's not just football. Kilmarnock have the hotel, St Johnstone do decent trade in conferences, funerals, functions, the restaurant and on their Field Turf pitch outside - oh and as Lex pointed out it's about league prize money too.

Edited by Stuart Dickson

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On a financial basis in 2011 and 2012 Saints had the lowest income in the SPL but the third highest wage-turnover ratio.

attachicon.gifTurnover-Wages2011-2012.png

Our wage bill was only greater than Inverness for both seasons which may help explain why clubs like Kilmarnock and St Johnstone were able to offer more to players like Tesselar and Hasselbaink.

Arguably teams like Aberdeen and Motherwell are much bigger from a turnover perspective, but the history books show that they both last won a trophy last century.

Aberdeen - last major trophy - League Cup 1996 - 18 years ago

Motherwell - last major trophy Scottish Cup 1981 - 33 years ago

In terms of current history over the last decade St Mirren are arguably one of the most successful teams in Scotland.

We certainly need to improve our league position to enhance the prize money coming into the club and increase off-field revenues which is where teams like ICT and St Johnstone in recent seasons have delivered a better balance sheet.

Motherwell was 1991.

I wouldn't go by attendance figures as our ground is a good size smaller than Motherwell and Killie.

Just look at our new ground that tells you all you need to know

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How can the current "Rangers" be bigger than St Mirren? They have less chance than St Mirren of winning the league title, less chance of playing in the Champions League, and historically all they've won to date is one Fourth Tier League Title.

True, but despite being a financial basket case run by spivs, the tribute act operating out of Ibrox still plays to 40,000 plus home crowds, sells out away games, has a big ex-pat following, has a superstore and a Glasgow Airport shop, sells a zillion times more merchandise than we do, has a massive corporate hospitality set up, and so on and soforth.

It would be churlish in the extreme to deny that the Ibrox Globetrotters aren't a big club, having adopted the guise of the old dead one.

Of course, no post of this nature is complete without an appropriate ending. Here we go. Drum roll.....

FCUK UM'!

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clubs like Kilie, st j and falkirk, are similar or smaller than us in terms of catchment area, but they actually have the potential to be biggerbecuase they are not so close to the ugly sisters in geographical terms

I grew up in Irvine which is obviously without a full time football team and you would imagine would fall into the Kilmarnock catchment. I could count on one hand the amount of Killie fans I knew of that I went to School with in a school of nearly 1000 pupils. At least 95% of poeple in Ayrshire are old firm fans unless they live in Kilmarnock or Ayr and even then its probably the majority. So I don't think proximity is a big factor, it's just that children are glory hunters.

Edited by irvine_buddie

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I grew up in Irvine which is obviously without a full time football team and you would imagine would fall into the Kilmarnock catchment. I could count on one hand the amount of Killie fans I knew of that I went to School with in a school of nearly 1000 pupils. At least 95% of poeple in Ayrshire are old firm fans unless they live in Kilmarnock or Ayr and even then its probably the majority. So I don't think proximity is a big factor, it's just that children are glory hunters.

Sadly it's not just the "glory-hunting" - we cannot get away from the sectarian divide that continues to be passed down from father/mother to son/daughter.

I'm pleased to say that I broke my family tradition by breaking the mould at an early age in many ways thanks to Fergie visiting our Primary school circa 1975.

Fergie had grown up alongside my father's family in Govan so my auld man wisnae a happy bear when I told him I was now converted to Buddiesism.

Even in our school in Paisley that vast majority "supported" the gruesome twosome. Most never bothered their arse to go to games mind you.

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Surely not.

When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's Paisley was no more isolated from Glasgow than it is today. Indeed after the deregulation of the buses you could get a bus from Paisley to Glasgow just about every 5 minutes. Sometimes 3 or 4 of them would come at exactly the same time. I stayed in Hillington - everyone still knew where the Paisley boundary was - at Hawkhead Road - and everyone knew where the Glasgow boundary started on Paisley Road West, just west of Crookston Road. I'd wander over the boundary to go to Stereo One for my records, to go to the pictures at the Kelburn, and I'd get along to Love Street for every home match. I'd even go to Elderslie and Johnstone to go swimming. Just as regularly I'd go in the other direction too. Glasgow was great for a night out, if you were taking a girl for a meal or to go shopping when you needed something fashionable to wear - cause Paisley was f**king dire for that.

Now OK back then we didn't have a Silverburn or a Braehead but I can't see the relevance in the ease of getting around to falling supporter numbers at Greenhill Road. Instead I think that the simple explanation as to why St Mirren aren't seeing a bounce in attendance figures despite the collapse of Rangers, and the falling attendances at Celtic, is because quite frankly a day out at Greenhill Road looks horribly overpriced for the lack of quality and entertainment that you get on the park.

The reason Killie, and St Johnstone have a better wages to turnover ratio is because both clubs have expanded their business. It's not just football. Kilmarnock have the hotel, St Johnstone do decent trade in conferences, funerals, functions, the restaurant and on their Field Turf pitch outside - oh and as Lex pointed out it's about league prize money too.

Why always a dig at us.

Our support just stays the same unlike the other club you mentioned whose attendances have dipped even though they are running away with the league.

We all know the prices are far too high for what's on offer but that's not St Mirren's fault.

The only fault i have got with the club is it's badly advertised.

There's great deals on offer but you wouldn't know about them unless you're a diehard.

The Panda Club,prime example i ended up taking my boy's 3 pals as well.

Their parents never heard about it until my boy's birthday party there,great value they all agreeded.

Reserve games get in free

Season tickets prices with children

Unless you log on to the website,you wouldn't know.

Build the pitch and they will come

Might work in Hollywood but in Scotland you have to work a good bit harder

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Sadly it's not just the "glory-hunting" - we cannot get away from the sectarian divide that continues to be passed down from father/mother to son/daughter.

I'm pleased to say that I broke my family tradition by breaking the mould at an early age in many ways thanks to Fergie visiting our Primary school circa 1975.

Fergie had grown up alongside my father's family in Govan so my auld man wisnae a happy bear when I told him I was now converted to Buddiesism.

Even in our school in Paisley that vast majority "supported" the gruesome twosome. Most never bothered their arse to go to games mind you.

My old man isn't a football man - never was. His faither was a Rangers supporter, and groomed my older brother to share this persuasion. I was even bought a Rangers top in the mid-70s when I was a nipper, and wore it without even considering what it meant. I only supported Scotland, so it didn't resonate with me at all.

I discovered Saints through a mate when already into my teens in the 1980s. It goes without saying that I'll be forever in his debt.

Not once did I ever consider that I'd rather follow the 'big' club. By the time I took an interest in club football, I already had a very healthy contempt for the OF. Indeed, having attended one Rangers match with some school friends (one of them had a spare ticket and I had nothing better to do), I'd experienced the very worst of what the Ibrox faithfull had to offer and vowed never to return to that ground - a commitment I've stuck with and will never waver from as long as I live.

This is why the talk of what constitutes a 'big' club doesn't really chime with me. I could have suffered the monsterous fate of following a certain big club, but was spared that ignominious malady. Every day, I find cause to celebrate the fact that it is St Mirren I support, and always will. I couldn't care less if the club were small enough to be accommodated in a fag packet.

Its all about perception.

Edited by Drew

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Motherwell was 1991.

I wouldn't go by attendance figures as our ground is a good size smaller than Motherwell and Killie.

Just look at our new ground that tells you all you need to know

Updated the date. Typo on my part. Sorry.

I never mentioned attendance figures but ultimately they are very relevant in terms of revenue streams. Motherwell get on average 1000 more customers every home game.

Last season our average home attendance (4,389) was only higher than Inverness (4,038) and St Johnstone (3,712).

As StuDick clearly states St Johnstone are maximising their facilities outside of football - but they have invested in additional staff to manage those facilities.

Perhaps a new owner would look at St Johnstone given that in years 2011 & 2012 they made £1,000,000 more than us in each year despite having 500 less customers for every home game.

Personally I think the Consortium are unwilling to spend any more on commercial, management and catering staff in case it does not work. Plus they are very keen to keep the hospitality suite in good condition.

I think one of the biggest mistakes made was not developing the void as a separate function room that could be used for funerals, small weddings, etc.

I'd even have liked to have seen the void developed partly developed with the profit made from the cup run, but again that would require a significant capital outlay which may not return to profit until after the consortium have sold their shares.

When you have a major university and college nearby you have access to young students nearing the end of their courses which could allow for a steady stream of work experience if there was a partnership.

We have to bear in mind that our club owners have their own businesses to deal with - they have a model that has proven to "break-even" year on year and they don't wish to invest in something like the void and additional staff given that it will probably not increase the value of their shareholding.

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I'm adopted, so huvnae' a clue about birth parents leanings towards an ugly sister or not. Mum was a Proddie, her dad was high up in the Masons. All my cousins on that side are Ibrox tribute act fans. My dad was Catholic, large family of Irish immigrants. All my cousins on his side are Sellik supporters.

I was born in Paisley and my background is surely fertile ground for shunning both sides of the divide and ploughing the black and white path of Buddieism!

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clubs like Kilie, st j and falkirk, are similar or smaller than us in terms of catchment area, but they actually have the potential to be biggerbecuase they are not so close to the ugly sisters in geographical terms

the worrying thing for me is that we had a bounce in the 70s as renagers went into a bit of a slump, but we are seeing no such bounce just now even though crowds at parkhead and ibrox are much diminished

i think that the problem may well be Paisley losing some of it's individuality and identity in the last decades. Many people go to glasgow for work, their shopping, restauarants, nights out, theatres, clubbing, etc and dont identify with Paisley a s a town in it's own right even if it is the place they live in

I think the re-definiton of the west of scotland conurbation over the last 40 years has taken the heart out of many of the once-proud burghs and that has affected thesize of our club. 30 years ago we were high up in the second tier, now we are low-middling in the third tier in terms of overall size/importance.

When talking to fellow Sai

clubs like Kilie, st j and falkirk, are similar or smaller than us in terms of catchment area, but they actually have the potential to be biggerbecuase they are not so close to the ugly sisters in geographical terms

the worrying thing for me is that we had a bounce in the 70s as renagers went into a bit of a slump, but we are seeing no such bounce just now even though crowds at parkhead and ibrox are much diminished

i think that the problem may well be Paisley losing some of it's individuality and identity in the last decades. Many people go to glasgow for work, their shopping, restauarants, nights out, theatres, clubbing, etc and dont identify with Paisley a s a town in it's own right even if it is the place they live in

I think the re-definiton of the west of scotland conurbation over the last 40 years has taken the heart out of many of the once-proud burghs and that has affected thesize of our club. 30 years ago we were high up in the second tier, now we are low-middling in the third tier in terms of overall

When talking to fellow Saints fans at away games I'm always surprised how many don't come from Paisley, some did not grow up in the town. The club try's hard to get more people through the door not an easy task.

Regarding size I for one don't care , however when I attend away games at other clubs stadiums I always feel St Mirren Park is very , very , very small. Also talking to people at my work who come from all over Europe I always tell them its a very small Scottish club in the top flight and one a major trophy last year , they think this is great.

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Lol

I agree though. Was sad to leave Love Street and all the memories, but although the new place is different and to an extent we are still finding our feet in it, it was definitely a financial master stroke. It will come, hopefully more touches like the placards about players etc will help along the way. The main entrance and hospitality suite are amazing with photos etc...just need to keep this spreading through the other stands.

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I agree though. Was sad to leave Love Street and all the memories, but although the new place is different and to an extent we are still finding our feet in it, it was definitely a financial master stroke. It will come, hopefully more touches like the placards about players etc will help along the way. The main entrance and hospitality suite are amazing with photos etc...just need to keep this spreading through the other stands.

What the fcuk?

We've left Love Street?

When did that happen?

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Lex (it was too difficult to quote your reply on the phone app due to font changes) my original post demonstrates me on the defensive about DL.

I think the point is that for the budget we have, we do relatively well. With the benefit of hindsight we are in a great position compared to where we have been in the not too distant past.

Ultimately though the question does come down to whether we could sustainably do better.

I think we are currently about our level, with similar sized and larger clubs above and below us. I'd love more wins and better consistency but I think both on and off the park we are doing pretty well at present regardless of how frustrating the on the field performances can be.

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