Jump to content

Disappearing Jet


faraway saint

Recommended Posts

feckin phone ! BEA dicked around with the design spec so much that it came out a pale shadow of it's original intention. Boeing managed to flog about 4000 more based on the original Trident spec... Phew !

True , the original design for the Trident was more akin to the Trident 3 than the 1 but as you say , BEA (Britain's Excuse for an Airline) kept changing their minds , on purpose. They kept monkeying about with the spec , even when the aircraft was in service , which , largely resulted in the loss of "Papa India" at Staines in June 1972 , with 118 fatalities. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites


True , the original design for the Trident was more akin to the Trident 3 than the 1 but as you say , BEA (Britain's Excuse for an Airline) kept changing their minds , on purpose. They kept monkeying about with the spec , even when the aircraft was in service , which , largely resulted in the loss of "Papa India" at Staines in June 1972 , with 118 fatalities. .

Although never admitted publicly , I thought the major contributing factor was the fact that "PI" was virtually written off with "PT" following the Airspeed Ambassador crash at Heathrow. Why "PI" was pieced together again and allowed back into airline service is a mystery !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although never admitted publicly , I thought the major contributing factor was the fact that "PI" was virtually written off with "PT" following the Airspeed Ambassador crash at Heathrow. Why "PI" was pieced together again and allowed back into airline service is a mystery !

The incident with the Airspeed Ambassador , wrote off the tail which , resulted in a satisfactory 750k repair . The Trident parked next to it that day was written off because it got split in two. Papa India had also had an undercarriage repair after skidding off the runway at Basle.

None of these repairs were contributory to the crash , though you might be forgiven in thinking that Papa India was a doomed/cursed a/c.

There were many factors which did contribute to the actual fatal incident but finally , it came down to failing to correctly respond to two stall warnings (by the second of which the a/c was at a point where it was too late to recover) which Cpt Key decided to override as false , even tho' they were carrying out a noise abatement procedure which was not concurrent with the manufacturers or the CAA's recommendations for the Trident.

Apart from his health problems Cpt Key was also despised by SFO's and other co-pilots to the extent that there was even graffiti concerning him on the engineers table aboard Papa India's flight deck . The enquiry , even tried to match the handwriting after the incident , to no avail. .

The Papa India crash remained the worst of it's kind in the Uk until Lockerbie happened. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The transponder doesn't have a big red 'Do not touch Father Dougal !' button attached the dashboard tempting fate. You need to enter a panel behind the captains seat and physically remove a circuit breaker. It's meant to stay on for more good reasons than not.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge but I have read elsewhere that turning off the transponder is like turning off a radio. That piece I read was post 9/11 and was in fact a query related to it. Would they not be better with no off switch or would it be difficult to design a system where the transponder stayed on automatically if the engines were on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The incident with the Airspeed Ambassador , wrote off the tail which , resulted in a satisfactory 750k repair . The Trident parked next to it that day was written off because it got split in two. Papa India had also had an undercarriage repair after skidding off the runway at Basle.

None of these repairs were contributory to the crash , though you might be forgiven in thinking that Papa India was a doomed/cursed a/c.

There were many factors which did contribute to the actual fatal incident but finally , it came down to failing to correctly respond to two stall warnings (by the second of which the a/c was at a point where it was too late to recover) which Cpt Key decided to override as false , even tho' they were carrying out a noise abatement procedure which was not concurrent with the manufacturers or the CAA's recommendations for the Trident.

Apart from his health problems Cpt Key was also despised by SFO's and other co-pilots to the extent that there was even graffiti concerning him on the engineers table aboard Papa India's flight deck . The enquiry , even tried to match the handwriting after the incident , to no avail. .

The Papa India crash remained the worst of it's kind in the Uk until Lockerbie happened. .

Capatain Key was an old school air force pilot, wartime era. He took a big dislike to the new breed of young public school boy whippersnapper pilots coming through the BEA ranks more interested in their salaries than the 'job'. When they voted to strike for better pay, he was livid. A furious row broke out in the crew room, pre-flight, between him and one of the other younger pilots, this is believed to have triggered the slow burning coronary that clouded his judgment and led to his indecision regarding deploying the droop flaps, causing the stall. The other two pilots, a first officer and observer were so intimidated by his presence they kept schtoom (allegedly).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very Interesting lads.

Was in a flight club at secondary school with a fascination for planes even spending many weekends at the viewing gallery at Glasgow Airport ( why did they take that away ) Going on a plane was an exciting adventure. Now I dislike it as security has taken out all the fun part of flying. While I can't say I'm nervous of flying these day's at the back of my mind hope this will be ok. Flew on the double decker last year to Bangkok which made me really nervous as it shakes like hell on lift off more than any other plane I have experienced. Have been on the plane 4 times now and each time is the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting reading guys. As a very young teenager, I was fascinated by aircraft - still am, and used to go plane spotting at Glasgow and Prestwick. I fondly remember the viewing gallery at Glasgow, with the amusement arcade on top. You could walk right out and get close to the planes. At Prestwick (we're talking 1972-1975 here), as young teenagers it was a glamourous world. Pan Am, Air Canada, Northwest Orient and a lot of military and cargo movements. The airport was buzzing, with families lined up on the long outdoor viewing gallery waving hankies as relations jetted off to North America. You saw Boeing 747s at Prestwick, an exciting world, so it seemed.

I remember the amusement arcade up there too, and a cafeteria. There was also a machine that dispensed orange juice in wee triangular cartons. On the viewing gallery were binoculars that you could get to work for free, simply by shoving a piece of cardboard into the coin slot. To get up to the viewing gallery the stairs had a series of paintings. Some were of futuristic as-yet unimagined airplanes. Painted in about 1968 - they're still there.

I was in Prestwick Airport yesterday, just passing and decided to go in for old times sake and have a Starbucks. It was dead. Like a morgue. I could visualise the buzz, the people jetting off to international destinations. I walked up the stairs to the viewing gallery and those paintings were still there. It really took me back to 1974 and my old jeans with a 'Scotland World Cup 74' patch sewn on by my mum! You can't get outside anymore, the binoculars are gone. The orange juice machine has gone... and the relatives waving goodbye have gone.

However, if you remember the old Prestwick, and still like aircraft - go up. Stop in at Prestwick and go up to the viewing gallery. There are a series of old photos from the heyday of the late 60s and early 70s on the walls. My God, the memories. There is also some Elvis Presley memorabila, and you can see where the amusement arcade and cafe used to be. If you peer through the gap in the door, inside the old cafe they've piled up the old terminal building public seating from the 70s. All burgandy velour and shaped aluminium tubing. Kinda' gives you goosebumps.

Forgot to say, no sign of the two Viscount aircraft either... 'MOG' and 'MON'.

Memories, memories!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best pay a visit to Prestwick soon , it'll be closed after the referendum in September !

Best pay a visit to Prestwick soon , it'll be closed after the referendum in September !

Don't think it will Billy simply because its one of the few airports that is open when other airports are closed for example London. Thought it was private now is it making a loss ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anybuddie remember The Buddies Club?They used to organise flights to USA,Canada and Oz to visit relatives who had emigrated.If I remember rightly coaches used to leave Bridge St to head to Prestwick for their flights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Capatain Key was an old school air force pilot, wartime era. He took a big dislike to the new breed of young public school boy whippersnapper pilots coming through the BEA ranks more interested in their salaries than the 'job'. When they voted to strike for better pay, he was livid. A furious row broke out in the crew room, pre-flight, between him and one of the other younger pilots, this is believed to have triggered the slow burning coronary that clouded his judgment and led to his indecision regarding deploying the droop flaps, causing the stall. The other two pilots, a first officer and observer were so intimidated by his presence they kept schtoom (allegedly).

All that is spot on. Key did serve in WWll . Not only did he not like the young Hamble graduates but he more or less refused to let them ever fly the aircraft which meant they never got the flying experience they needed on the Trident . On top of that he was generally obnoxious and therefore despised by all the young P2's/ SFO's. .

His health problem was known to the airline . .

The argument you mention, took place 11/2 hrs before departure , in the crewroom , in front of the other staff members on the flight deck , that day. Key was also pissed off at the prospect of other industrial action , proposed to take place the following day , which was an international pilot protest against the recent batch of hi-jackings in the world. This meant that Papa India was due to carry max payload on a Sunday (usually a quiet day for flying). .

Shortly after take-off , Cpt Key made a left turn and began the noise abatement procedure ( a procedure not endorsed by the manufacturer or the CAA test pilot) . The tower then cleared the aircraft to 1500 ft . At this point , Key indicated to the centre console and said to the P2 , Jeremy Keighley ," put that in!" . Key meant Keighley to put the clearance to 1500 into the autopilot , not wanting to question Key (because he was terrified of him) , Keighley put in the lever which retracted the droop-leading edge . This caused an immediate stall warning (the aircraft was already close to stall per-the questionable noise abatement procedure ) ,involving violent stick shake and a claxon , which was overridden by Key ( apparently , not an uncommon mistake on Tridents) , this was almost immediately followed by the second warning ! However , by the point of the second warning , the Trident had already commenced into an unrecoverable stall(deep stall) . Seconds later , the Trident crashed , less than 3minutes after it let the brakes off for take-off. .

The press at the time blamed Jeremy Keighley for the crash , which , with all of the above in mind , I think was grossly unfair. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't think it will Billy simply because its one of the few airports that is open when other airports are closed for example London. Thought it was private now is it making a loss ?

It's government owned Ian , otherwise it would be closed down already. They've had a company in evaluating it's chances of becoming profit making , the report from them is overdue.It'll likely be buried until after the vote as the SG wouldn't want the bad press of a closure beforehand !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prestwick's best bet is to close it's biggest loss maker, it's passenger terminal and concentrate on all the other operations that go in there, cargo/maintenance/refuelling/aerospace etc... Ryanair are the only airline there now and apparently have them over a barrel in some sort of golden handcuffs deal. Re: Poz's sentimental post earlier, the terminal would actually make a brilliant aviation museum with plenty room for 'live' exhibits outside. That's something the SG could consider for sure. I was down there today filming onboard a WW2 Dakota troop plane which is staging through PIK enroute to the Normandy anniversary events, it leaves on Friday and worth a swatch. There's also going to be an airshow in September with lot's of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancasters. Still life in the old dog yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prestwick's best bet is to close it's biggest loss maker, it's passenger terminal and concentrate on all the other operations that go in there, cargo/maintenance/refuelling/aerospace etc... Ryanair are the only airline there now and apparently have them over a barrel in some sort of golden handcuffs deal. Re: Poz's sentimental post earlier, the terminal would actually make a brilliant aviation museum with plenty room for 'live' exhibits outside. That's something the SG could consider for sure. I was down there today filming onboard a WW2 Dakota troop plane which is staging through PIK enroute to the Normandy anniversary events, it leaves on Friday and worth a swatch. There's also going to be an airshow in September with lot's of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancasters. Still life in the old dog yet.

Re: Ryanair. As I said in my last post, we dropped in for 'old time sake' and it was dead. However, a quick look at the departure board saw Ryanair flights to Barcelona, Malaga, Dublin, and somewhere else I can't remember. The four flights departure times were (roughly speaking) 16.00, 16.30, 17.05 and 18.20.

I'm guessing this works on several levels. Four planeloads of people all in the airport basically at the same time - suits Ryanair, and Instead of staff sitting around all day doing nothing much, I'm guessing they have staff in at security, shops, restaurants, bars etc when needed to deal with four flights in very close succession.

Looks like there's a lot of planning goes on to make it work.

Love the idea of the complex becoming an aviation museum - civil and military? I could easily visualise interactive things for kids, simulator rides, and of course a museum in the style of the Riverside transport museum... A big area about Elvis Presley's only time on UK soil...

Need to get the fan council on it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest "Jeeeezuss!!!" moment came at Prestwick when I used to commute back and forth to Dublin a few years ago. One of those big C5 Galaxy buggers was on the tramac as we landed, apparently one had broken a wing in Germany and the only thing big enough to carry the spare wing was one of its sisters, but it had to land at Prestwick as it didn't have enough fuel to go all the way to Germany in one hop, and there wasn't a runway long enough anywhere else to land and take off again. Up until that point I thought Jumbos were big. Haven't seen the new Dreamliner or A380 up close yet tho'. Are they as big? Hard to beleive, almost, that soemthing that size can fly. Seems it hold the record for the heaviest "plane plus cargo" ever to fly, c.350 tons, only things heavier that can "fly" are rocket powered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aye the Galaxy came into Paisley International too a couple of times with mini submarines for Holy Loch, I remember walking through one at the old Prestwick air show, early 80's and thinking it was like walking through a B&Q store. Back then it was the biggest thing flying, the Russians have built bigger since, biggest plane in the world, the Antonov 225, only one built, and one part built. It's an occasional visitor to Prestwick and sports a mighty three engines per wing !

Edited by FS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prestwick's best bet is to close it's biggest loss maker, it's passenger terminal and concentrate on all the other operations that go in there, cargo/maintenance/refuelling/aerospace etc... Ryanair are the only airline there now and apparently have them over a barrel in some sort of golden handcuffs deal. Re: Poz's sentimental post earlier, the terminal would actually make a brilliant aviation museum with plenty room for 'live' exhibits outside. That's something the SG could consider for sure. I was down there today filming onboard a WW2 Dakota troop plane which is staging through PIK enroute to the Normandy anniversary events, it leaves on Friday and worth a swatch. There's also going to be an airshow in September with lot's of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancasters. Still life in the old dog yet.

Great to have an Airshow back , but unfortunately the Air show will be taking place at the sea front in Ayr with the static show only at Pik. I think this is a tester to see if theres an appetite for a show in Scotland, if the crowds turn out it would be great to see it take place at Prestwick in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest TPAFKATS

Great to have an Airshow back , but unfortunately the Air show will be taking place at the sea front in Ayr with the static show only at Pik. I think this is a tester to see if theres an appetite for a show in Scotland, if the crowds turn out it would be great to see it take place at Prestwick in the future.

Would this be replacing East Lothian(or is it Leuchars?) airshow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest "Jeeeezuss!!!" moment came at Prestwick when I used to commute back and forth to Dublin a few years ago. One of those big C5 Galaxy buggers was on the tramac as we landed, apparently one had broken a wing in Germany and the only thing big enough to carry the spare wing was one of its sisters, but it had to land at Prestwick as it didn't have enough fuel to go all the way to Germany in one hop, and there wasn't a runway long enough anywhere else to land and take off again. Up until that point I thought Jumbos were big. Haven't seen the new Dreamliner or A380 up close yet tho'. Are they as big? Hard to beleive, almost, that soemthing that size can fly. Seems it hold the record for the heaviest "plane plus cargo" ever to fly, c.350 tons, only things heavier that can "fly" are rocket powered.

There is very little to choose in size between Galaxy 747s, the latest jumbo is actually slightly bigger . What impresses most about the Galaxy is the sheer bulk & capacity. As for the runway, there are many UK aiports which are more than capable to accept a Galaxy.

The reasons the yanks choose Prestwick are many,yes the Big `ol runway but also the fact that there`s lots of space to park the buggers, not many commercial flights to work around & its cheap !! Plus the fact there are so many good golf courses in the area ! The yank airmen love to boast of playing on a genuine Scotch golf course !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anybuddie remember The Buddies Club?They used to organise flights to USA,Canada and Oz to visit relatives who had emigrated.If I remember rightly coaches used to leave Bridge St to head to Prestwick for their flights.

Remember it well mate, as an 10 year old in 1975 our family went to New York to visit my uncle, remember going to the town hall every Sunday with my Maw to pay the weekly dues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...