TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 How did we only score 1 goal at this point last season aswell? After 6 games last season we had 1 point and we were out the league cup. If we get a draw on Friday we will have 1 point after 6 games and we will still be in the league cup. Simple really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddies1877 Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 After 6 games last season we had 1 point and we were out the league cup. If we get a draw on Friday we will have 1 point after 6 games and we will still be in the league cup. Simple really! thank god for that here's me thinking we were doing bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) This board will not simply not make a knee jerk reaction before Christmas. You say we couldn't sack Danny because of the cup win, what about the 2 seasons before the cup win? His first season we were awful, we lost to a lower league team in the league cup and were very close to relegation. His second season we lost at home to a part time team in the league cup and struggled for long periods of the league campaign. Last season the majority of fans on this forum wanted him out on February and several had written us off as relegation 'certainties'. Yet the board stuck by him, and were proven right. The only way Tommy won't be here on Christmas Day is if he resigns, and I'm pretty sure he won't do that. As for worst start in our history, if we draw on Friday we will have had a better start than last season. You're comparing apples with pears Lex. It's not the same situation and I don't think the board will view it as such either if we keep getting beat. We've never been completely isolated at the bottom of the premier league past October during Lennon or Gus, so to suggest the board wouldn't sack TC even if we were (based on past decisions) is missing the point. TC does not have a managerial track record to fall back on and the damage of going down from the premier to the first is a lot higher than scuttling about in the first division (as was the case with coughlin). You bring up stats for strikers, so on the basis of TC's managerial record to date how do you see the results improving under TC? At the age of 63 there's probably a reason why he's never had more than 6 months in charge at a club. That being he's not very good. Edited to say, the board aren't stupid and I think if results don't improve very shortly they'll be of the same opinion that he has to go. Edited September 14, 2014 by Ally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 You're missing the point again. Yes these managers were sacked before Christmas, but none of them were in their first season, so it's a completely meaningless comparison. The shortest managerial tenure of any manager under our current BoD is John Coughlin. He arrived in December and left in November, 11 months and 2 transfer windows. This board will not simply not make a knee jerk reaction before Christmas. You say we couldn't sack Danny because of the cup win, what about the 2 seasons before the cup win? His first season we were awful, we lost to a lower league team in the league cup and were very close to relegation. His second season we lost at home to a part time team in the league cup and struggled for long periods of the league campaign. Last season the majority of fans on this forum wanted him out on February and several had written us off as relegation 'certainties'. Yet the board stuck by him, and were proven right. The only way Tommy won't be here on Christmas Day is if he resigns, and I'm pretty sure he won't do that. As for worst start in our history, if we draw on Friday we will have had a better start than last season. The board are trying to sell the club , get relagated we will be down for at least a decade. The club will be worth next to nothing so moving Tommy on is in their own finical interest. As things stand right now we are a certainity to be relagated for long spells in yesterday's game we looked lost in particuliar our front line or should I write no front line , we were going down the flanks with no one in the middile , have never seen anything like it. Tommy nice guy but we need a change now. I'm not going to the Thistle they will put a few past us. Certainly not going to the Celtic game ether I don't want to be humiliated. In fact i'm questioning having taken out a season ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 You're comparing apples with pears Lex. It's not the same situation and I don't think the board will view it as such either if we keep getting beat. We've never been completely isolated at the bottom of the premier league past October during Lennon or Gus, so to suggest the board wouldn't sack TC even if we were (based on past decisions) is missing the point. TC does not have a managerial track record to fall back on and the damage of going down from the premier to the first is a lot higher than scuttling about in the first division (as was the case with coughlin). You bring up stats for strikers, so on the basis of TC's managerial record to date how do you see the results improving under TC? At the age of 63 there's probably a reason why he's never had more than 6 months in charge at a club. That being he's not very good. Edited to say, the board aren't stupid and I think if results don't improve very shortly they'll be of the same opinion that he has to go. Well we aren't isolated at the bottom now either, indeed we actually aren't bottom and have a game in hand on the team who is. No manager should be judged on what he did at other clubs, only what he's doing at this club. If Tommy had been successful previously would that make the current situation better? Not for me it wouldn't. Butcher had a good track record before he went to Hibs, it didn't help them. My point is simply, every new manager deserves time, and by time I mean at least half a season. This board has a track record of giving managers time. If we are 11th or 12th on New Year's Day I will likely back a change being made. And before people say it will be too late at that point, it won't be. There's countless examples in this league and other leagues of teams making huge changes to their league position between January and May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 The board are trying to sell the club , get relagated we will be down for at least a decade. The club will be worth next to nothing so moving Tommy on is in their own finical interest. As things stand right now we are a certainity to be relagated for long spells in yesterday's game we looked lost in particuliar our front line or should I write no front line , we were going down the flanks with no one in the middile , have never seen anything like it. Tommy nice guy but we need a change now. I'm not going to the Thistle they will put a few past us. Certainly not going to the Celtic game ether I don't want to be humiliated. In fact i'm questioning having taken out a season ticket Down for a least a decade? Haha, you must give me a loan of that crystal ball. I stopped reading at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldo_j Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 After 6 games last season we had 1 point and we were out the league cup. If we get a draw on Friday we will have 1 point after 6 games and we will still be in the league cup. Simple really! The probably with the first 6 games of this season is that it has mostly been against clubs we should be competing with and we've had a fair chunk of them at home. When you compare that against the first 6 games of last season, you would then probably say we are in fact worse off. It's admirable that you are supporting the manager though, haven't seen/spoken to many of them though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappy coco Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Wee Danny must be pishing himself laughing at us right now, and you could hardly blame him, The BOD have made a complete balls up with appointing TC, and are going to reap there reward for there tight arse tactics with certain relegation.... Our club is in one cnut of a state, the whole place needs gutted from top to bottom... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Well we aren't isolated at the bottom now either, indeed we actually aren't bottom and have a game in hand on the team who is. No manager should be judged on what he did at other clubs, only what he's doing at this club. If Tommy had been successful previously would that make the current situation better? Not for me it wouldn't. Butcher had a good track record before he went to Hibs, it didn't help them. My point is simply, every new manager deserves time, and by time I mean at least half a season. This board has a track record of giving managers time. If we are 11th or 12th on New Year's Day I will likely back a change being made. And before people say it will be too late at that point, it won't be. There's countless examples in this league and other leagues of teams making huge changes to their league position between January and May. We aren't isolated yet, but there's a possibility we could be before the new year (your cut off point for the board). It's ridiculous to say that the board wouldn't consider bagging him before then if that were the case. My point being that because they hadn't sacked a manager early previously wouldn't mean they necessarily wouldn't under different circumstances.Someone with a good track record means there is cause to believe things could get better if you start poorly. Coincidely, someone with a poor one who starts poorly means there's far less cause to believe it'll improve. T. The case is . Edited September 14, 2014 by Ally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Crumbs. well, we are toast now Edited September 14, 2014 by beyond our ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 We aren't isolated yet, but there's a possibility we could be before the new year (your cut off point for the board). It's ridiculous to say that the board wouldn't consider bagging him before then if that were the case. My point being that because they hadn't sacked a manager early previously wouldn't mean they necessarily wouldn't under different circumstances. Someone with a good track record means there is cause to believe things could get better if you start poorly. Coincidely, someone with a poor one who starts poorly means there's far less cause to believe it'll improve. T. The case is . Well there is also a possibility we won't be The board had a Q and A last week. I wasn't there, but according to people who were the general message from SGG was along the lines of... Be patient and things will improve. If you think our board would sack Tommy before Christmas ok, I don't, I would be astounded if they did infact. As we see repeatedly, track records at previous clubs don't count for anything when managers move clubs. There's been several examples of managers with good track records failing, and managers with no track record succeeding. I'm not judging our manager on anything apart from what he does as manager of St Mirren. I would say that regardless of who we had appointed in the summer. If others wish to use Tommy's age or the fact he's spent most of his career in coaching instead of management as a stick to beat him with, fair enough. We have had a bad start, but that's all it is. We didn't deserve to lose in 3 of our 5 defeats and we have been missing important players in every game. It's not good enough, and i'm not offering excuses. However I genuinely believe we will get a break and we will turn this around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyg Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Well there is also a possibility we won't be : The board had a Q and A last week. I wasn't there, but according to people who were the general message from SGG was along the lines of... Be patient and things will improve. If you think our board would sack Tommy before Christmas ok, I don't, I would be astounded if they did infact. You think SGG will still be around come Xmas ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 You think SGG will still be around come Xmas ? Yes. Or is the sale of the club 'imminent' again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beyond our ken Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Down for a least a decade? Haha, you must give me a loan of that crystal ball. I stopped reading at that point. Sad man, you got the change you wanted, despite being well warned that St Mirren would only have the money and the will to make a lesser appointment Now you are so aware of your hounding of the previous manager that you are trying to redress the balance by asking for the patience you failed to show on your own part. The good news is that you had no influence over the board's decision and you wont be considered when the next one is made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Well there is also a possibility we won't be The board had a Q and A last week. I wasn't there, but according to people who were the general message from SGG was along the lines of... Be patient and things will improve. If you think our board would sack Tommy before Christmas ok, I don't, I would be astounded if they did infact. As we see repeatedly, track records at previous clubs don't count for anything when managers move clubs. There's been several examples of managers with good track records failing, and managers with no track record succeeding. I'm not judging our manager on anything apart from what he does as manager of St Mirren. I would say that regardless of who we had appointed in the summer. If others wish to use Tommy's age or the fact he's spent most of his career in coaching instead of management as a stick to beat him with, fair enough. We have had a bad start, but that's all it is. We didn't deserve to lose in 3 of our 5 defeats and we have been missing important players in every game. It's not good enough, and i'm not offering excuses. However I genuinely believe we will get a break and we will turn this around. There is a possibility we won't be of course, but you had it as a closed shop that he won't be bagged regardless of where we are because of previous decisions. I was pointing out that if circumstances aren't the same as before they have a different decision to make... Your point about past records is a bit odd. On this basis it doesn't matter who you appoint, because good managers can have a poor time at a club. Well yes this is true of course, but the laws of probability would suggest that if you appoint a manger with a good track record they are more likely to do well than someone who has a poor track record. The same could be said of anything in life really, that's how people make decisions in business and every day life. It's why Jose mourinho is more sought after than John coughlin and why your CV gets scrutinised when going for a job. I'm referring to his age because it's a legitimate point, not a stick to beat him with. His age itself is not a problem of course. My point is if previous clubs had seen something in TC, it's more likely he'd have been given more chances than he has done to date. As he's not, then it asks questions as to why not. Again it's looking at likelyhood and making a decision based on previous successes, experience etc. TC might turn it round, but my argument is that to believe this would be based more on blind faith than on anything we've seen so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyg Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Yes. Or is the sale of the club 'imminent' again? : As you said , you weren't at the Q&A ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windae cleaner Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 You think SGG will still be around come Xmas ? Who is going to buy us for the money they are after He will be here for a long time yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilPar72 Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 After 6 games last season we had 1 point and we were out the league cup. If we get a draw on Friday we will have 1 point after 6 games and we will still be in the league cup. Simple really! We then won 4 out of 5, and 14 out of the next 21 pts. Look at these upcoming fixtures, Celtic (h), Aberdeen (a), St Johnstone (a), Inverness (h), County (h), United (a), Partick (h) Somehow I can't see a similar run happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Sad man, you got the change you wanted, despite being well warned that St Mirren would only have the money and the will to make a lesser appointment Now you are so aware of your hounding of the previous manager that you are trying to redress the balance by asking for the patience you failed to show on your own part. The good news is that you had no influence over the board's decision and you wont be considered when the next one is made Complete misinformed nonsense here, as we have came to expect from you. Any of our fans boo our own players yesterday? On the contrary to your rant, I defended DL during his first season when many wanted him out. I only asked for him to be sacked at the very end of his first season, when we lost away from home to ICT. I am perfectly aware I have no influence on the BoD's decision. This is a discussion forum after all, I come here to discuss St Mirren not to influence the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 There is a possibility we won't be of course, but you had it as a closed shop that he won't be bagged regardless of where we are because of previous decisions. I was pointing out that if circumstances aren't the same as before they have a different decision to make... Your point about past records is a bit odd. On this basis it doesn't matter who you appoint, because good managers can have a poor time at a club. Well yes this is true of course, but the laws of probability would suggest that if you appoint a manger with a good track record they are more likely to do well than someone who has a poor track record. The same could be said of anything in life really, that's how people make decisions in business and every day life. It's why Jose mourinho is more sought after than John coughlin and why your CV gets scrutinised when going for a job. I'm referring to his age because it's a legitimate point, not a stick to beat him with. His age itself is not a problem of course. My point is if previous clubs had seen something in TC, it's more likely he'd have been given more chances than he has done to date. As he's not, then it asks questions as to why not. Again it's looking at likelyhood and making a decision based on previous successes, experience etc. TC might turn it round, but my argument is that to believe this would be based more on blind faith than on anything we've seen so far. My point is simple. I think this board will give TC to Christmas regardless of results. If we keep losing Tommy may resign before then, but I would be astonished if the board terminated a 2 year contract less than 6 months into it. The point about past records isn't relevant to this discussion. That was relevant to the discussion about his appointment, not to whether he should stay or not. He now has the job, he is the manager. Discussions on the merits of his appointment should be had after he leaves. Simply I believe every manager should start with a clean slate and be judged only on his managerial performance at his current club. I also believe any manager should be given half a season as a minimum to impose his ideas. I would be making these points regardless of who our manager was. I think following St Mirren has blind faith as a prerequisite to be honest. Sacking TC and making another appointment so early would be an expensive form of blind faith. As I've said elsewhere, I think we are in a far better position now than we were at this time a year ago. Not that that is saying much, but we don't look like a disinterested shambles like we did then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainstand Sweary Mob Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 Where is Terry butcher these days. I'd take him as manager. Did really well I thought at ICT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopCat Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 We then won 4 out of 5, and 14 out of the next 21 pts. Look at these upcoming fixtures, Celtic (h), Aberdeen (a), St Johnstone (a), Inverness (h), County (h), United (a), Partick (h) Somehow I can't see a similar run happening. Well, we don't need a similar run. Aswell as our awful start last season we also lost 7 games out of 8 between January and March last season. We had 2 long runs of dismal form last year, yet we were still the first team in the bottom 6 to secure safety. Puts the current run into perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethal89 Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 All of the above makes sense about bad runs etc. The main concern is that we have scored one goal in 4500 minutes of football against teams at our level, and the one goalscorer we have could be out for some considerable time. If we were to appoint a new manager he would need to work wonders with what we have. I wonder how many fantastic managers would find this appealing?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Saints Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 All of the above makes sense about bad runs etc. The main concern is that we have scored one goal in 4500 minutes of football against teams at our level, and the one goalscorer we have could be out for some considerable time. If we were to appoint a new manager he would need to work wonders with what we have. I wonder how many fantastic managers would find this appealing?? My sleep apnia is getting worse 1 goal now in FIFTY games. Is TC still in charge ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLBud Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) The really worrying thing for Saints long term is the increasing apathy being shown by fans, a few passionate wee souls on here notwithstanding. I used to go home and away every week. That has changed in recent times from choosing my away games to finally not even being able to give enough of a f**k to drive the 30 mins to Kilmarnock. We're just awful to watch and Craig is ultimately responsible for that. I understand the argument to give a new guy time but the reality is he has been heavily involved in the last few seasons as well and things have been increasingly shite. Sad to say but I feel we're in terminal decline and are certainly headed to the Championship IMO. Watching other diddly teams come up and make a right good fist of it does nothing to lighten my mood. The longer this man stays in charge the harder it will be to save our season and top flight status. The losing mentality that has been evident at this club for years has now reached the tipping point for me and we can either accept our lot and shuffle along or demand change. Firhill will be awkward place for Craig if we don't spring out of the traps on Friday night. Edited September 14, 2014 by DLBud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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