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garzo
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It'll never fly without 10000 hours providing consultancy

10000Hours bid fell over 2 years ago yet nobody has come forward in the meantime with an alternative fan based bid. I'm sure that the bickering, sneering (like the above) and fighting that went on during the last bid would have put anyone off mounting such an effort.

It certainly put me off ever getting involved again that's for sure. I still get the odd bit of abuse thrown my way regarding my involvement in the 10000Hours bid.

Never again.

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10000Hours bid fell over 2 years ago yet nobody has come forward in the meantime with an alternative fan based bid. I'm sure that the bickering, sneering (like the above) and fighting that went on during the last bid would have put anyone off mounting such an effort.

It certainly put me off ever getting involved again that's for sure. I still get the odd bit of abuse thrown my way regarding my involvement in the 10000Hours bid.

Never again.

The big problem with that was the notion that the fans were funding someone else's vision of social ministry. Whether that was accurate or not is by the by-the way the thing was first floated led a lot of people to expect more say than was ever going to be the case. The hearts model, where someone who actually has and will use their own money to support the fans take-over is the right one. there is no doubting the credibility of the person involved and an awful lot of respect comes their way as a result.

Unfortunately, that just never happened with 10kH and suspicion abounded, anyway the access to community funds was never as likely as was floated, if they had landed that money then it would probably have worked (to some extent). The payback period was very long as well

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The big problem with that was the notion that the fans were funding someone else's vision of social ministry. Whether that was accurate or not is by the by-the way the thing was first floated led a lot of people to expect more say than was ever going to be the case. The hearts model, where someone who actually has and will use their own money to support the fans take-over is the right one. there is no doubting the credibility of the person involved and an awful lot of respect comes their way as a result.

Unfortunately, that just never happened with 10kH and suspicion abounded, anyway the access to community funds was never as likely as was floated, if they had landed that money then it would probably have worked (to some extent). The payback period was very long as well

Where are 10kh now? I was sure they said they had become big saints fans!

Open goal jibes aside though, any fan led bid has to be first and foremost just that, a FAN led bid.

Not a shyster who wants everyone one else to pay to make him chairman as he assets strips the club to churches, kibbles, and anyone wanting to punt worthless shares.

Fans demand openness, honesty and clarity. None of that came from 10hk, they created their own destiny.

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It certainly put me off ever getting involved again that's for sure. I still get the odd bit of abuse thrown my way regarding my involvement in the 10000Hours bid.

I'm sure you treat the clowns with the disdain they deserve.

Edited by FTOF
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don't see why it couldn't be done but it would take virtually every supporter to become a member contributing a monthly sum eg £10 a month

firstly this money would need to be used to buy out the consortium, even gradually over a few years

at that point the club would then be where it is now, living by its own means, however after that point with the contributions still coming in it would begin to grow having created a 'board' to be made up of elected fans and where required employ professionals funded by the members subscriptions

if you were to compare it to anything it be like the current situation where the board ( consortium) have employed Brian Caldwell for example

difference would be there would be more of and a steady investment from the fans

the fans did not let the 10,000 bid fail it was the other investors or community groups that couldn't collectivley uphold the financial commitments for the bid, IMO there were too many unknown people and other 'community interests' involved,

there is a difference between what I would call the St.mirren community and the wider general community whether that be renfrewshire, sports groups etc etc

a community buyout of our club should be solely the St.mirren community buy out, it might take a bit longer to achieve but it would be more stable and we would know who and what we are dealing with

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there is a difference between what I would call the St.mirren community and the wider general community whether that be renfrewshire, sports groups etc etc

a community buyout of our club should be solely the St.mirren community buy out, it might take a bit longer to achieve but it would be more stable and we would know who and what we are dealing with

Then it's not a community buy out John, and what you are left with isn't a Community Interest Company - it's a fan buy out and it's something entirely different.

To be honest I don't really understand the attitude of those, like you, who believe the clubs facilities have to be kept for fans of the club only. It gives those appeals to Paisley locals to come out and support their local club a truly hollow ring to it and it damns the attitude of those who would criticise Old Firm fans who don't follow their local club. Surely the best way to expand the customer base of any business is to increase the footfall by making your premises indispensable to those living in the local vicinity. To do that you need to stop being so damned parochial!

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Then it's not a community buy out John, and what you are left with isn't a Community Interest Company - it's a fan buy out and it's something entirely different.

To be honest I don't really understand the attitude of those, like you, who believe the clubs facilities have to be kept for fans of the club only. It gives those appeals to Paisley locals to come out and support their local club a truly hollow ring to it and it damns the attitude of those who would criticise Old Firm fans who don't follow their local club. Surely the best way to expand the customer base of any business is to increase the footfall by making your premises indispensable to those living in the local vicinity. To do that you need to stop being so damned parochial!

That made i laugh considering all your slavering RE: the national youth performance programme and how much better it was when clubs kept young talent hidden for themselves

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Then it's not a community buy out John, and what you are left with isn't a Community Interest Company - it's a fan buy out and it's something entirely different.

To be honest I don't really understand the attitude of those, like you, who believe the clubs facilities have to be kept for fans of the club only. It gives those appeals to Paisley locals to come out and support their local club a truly hollow ring to it and it damns the attitude of those who would criticise Old Firm fans who don't follow their local club. Surely the best way to expand the customer base of any business is to increase the footfall by making your premises indispensable to those living in the local vicinity. To do that you need to stop being so damned parochial!

I thought that concentrating only on those in the local vicinity (can there be a non-local vicinity?) would be the definition of parochialism

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I thought that concentrating only on those in the local vicinity (can there be a non-local vicinity?) would be the definition of parochialism

2,000 - 4,000 fans versus a population in Paisley of 74,170 and in Renfrewshire of 170,610.

If you want to make more money you have to increase footfall. The parochial attitude shown by many St Mirren fans, and by John White at SMiSA is exactly the kind of behaviour that holds clubs like St Mirren back.

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That made i laugh considering all your slavering RE: the national youth performance programme and how much better it was when clubs kept young talent hidden for themselves

Nonsense and you know it. I've been highly critical of a national development programme that I can see wastes money and a pro youth system that takes young boys away from their friends, and away from their education promising them a future in the game, when in reality they are just shirt fillers who the club coaches know damned well will never make it in the game.

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Nonsense and you know it. I've been highly critical of a national development programme that I can see wastes money and a pro youth system that takes young boys away from their friends, and away from their education promising them a future in the game, when in reality they are just shirt fillers who the club coaches know damned well will never make it in the game.

Remind me again, where did you go to further your football ambitions as a teenager?

And you complain about kids being taken away from their friends?

Oh, that's right-you are not a real person and had no friends to lose

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Remind me again, where did you go to further your football ambitions as a teenager?

And you complain about kids being taken away from their friends?

Oh, that's right-you are not a real person and had no friends to lose

You really don't have a clue do you?

The S Form system meant that kids weren't taken away from their friends at all. Indeed my experience backs that up completely. I was a 15 year old who had a series of trials at Sunderland which is what you are alluding to. However despite wanting to sign me Sunderland couldn't until I turned 16 due to some cross border restriction. As it transpired I got a serious injury before I turned 16 and I never did sign a contract. However at boys club level, throughout all the time I was having trials with Sunderland, I still regularly played against the likes of John Spencer, Stevie Woods, Derek Collins, Paul Lambert, Norrie McWhirter and a number of other highly quoted young players who were on S Form contracts with senior Scottish Football club and who still played for their local boys clubs. The only time I missed classes at school for football was when I played for the school football team - with my mates.

These days those kids that are at Braidhurst on the National Football programme that has cost so much money don't do classes on a Monday morning. Instead they head for the Aquatec in Motherwell for a long soak in the swimming pool to ease their muscles. Regardless of how disruptive they are teachers find it difficult to punish those kids as the SFA makes expulsion difficult. Kids as young as 10 and 11 with pro youth contracts can't play with their friends at juvenile club level even if they find that the pro youth club that signed them has left them corroding on the bench week after week with hardly any game time. The game in Scotland is in reverse gear, and it's been getting worse year on year as the current standard of the Scottish Premier League clearly shows - yet bizarrely you and some others still want to make it more parochial. :rolleyes:

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Both the Hearts and Motherwell buy outs were/are being funded by a wealthy individual who was/is prepared to put up the capital required to purchase the shareholding and then have their outlay repaid over time by the supporters.

It's a more realistic model. The problem we had is that the selling consortium were not prepared to be that funder themselves (ie to take their payment in installments), and there was no third party willing to step in and hand over the £1.5m of capital required.

10000Hours had two false starts, was being shot at from all angles, and was not headed up by a well known Saints Supporter, so it's actually amazing that it got as far as it did.

To me it proved there was an appetite for fan ownership at the club, but two years on nobody has mounted a similar fan led bid, so in truth we can really have few complaints about the club passing into private ownership. We just have to pray that it works out, and we don't end up in the mess that Gretna, Dundee, Livingston, Hearts and Rangers did.

I won't hold my breath !

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10000Hours had two false starts, was being shot at from all angles, and was not headed up by a well known Saints Supporter, so it's actually amazing that it got as far as it Went ?

1. It had No Fcking Chance being run by Shysters.

2.SMISA should have been the Vehicle

It went that Far Div, Because your Forum allowed there flawed message to gain support ? whistling.gif .

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Both the Hearts and Motherwell buy outs were/are being funded by a wealthy individual who was/is prepared to put up the capital required to purchase the shareholding and then have their outlay repaid over time by the supporters.

It's a more realistic model. The problem we had is that the selling consortium were not prepared to be that funder themselves (ie to take their payment in installments), and there was no third party willing to step in and hand over the £1.5m of capital required.

10000Hours had two false starts, was being shot at from all angles, and was not headed up by a well known Saints Supporter, so it's actually amazing that it got as far as it did.

To me it proved there was an appetite for fan ownership at the club, but two years on nobody has mounted a similar fan led bid, so in truth we can really have few complaints about the club passing into private ownership. We just have to pray that it works out, and we don't end up in the mess that Gretna, Dundee, Livingston, Hearts and Rangers did.

I won't hold my breath !

And rather ridiculously one of the main snipers was the clubs own Supporters Trust - an organisation that is supposed to be focused on purchasing shares in the club to enable the supporters voice to be heard in the boardroom. Yet instead of putting together their own proposal for fan ownership SMiSA opted instead to use the funds they had to give the directors of the club a soft loan to they could add to the clubs asset portfolio pushing the value of the shares even further out of reach of the fans.

I am a big supporter of the Supporters Trust movement right across the UK but I can't for the life of me understand the actions that have been taken by SMiSA over the years since foundation. I know it's a majority vote from members but FFS buying t-shirts and towels, sponsoring the youth academy, and providing soft loans for the dome all done in return for a block on them buying shares in the club, zero members being put on the football board, and still no voice in the boardroom shows very little focus on their own supposed aims and objectives.

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1. It had No Fcking Chance being run by Shysters.

2.SMISA should have been the Vehicle

It went that Far Div, Because your Forum allowed there flawed message to gain support ? whistling.gif .

I've seen the shysters argument before, but the German model sees companies provide financial support in return for whatever considerations. All this "we should get access first" when someone else was putting money in for whatever area was being developed was nothing short of blinkered bullshit. Nobody is going to put in thousands so that somebody else or a group gets a vote. They put money in to be part of the overall collective with the understanding they'll obviously see something back. So frigging what if someone hired a space for a wednesday until they got their contribution back, the fact the space is then there means it can be used to get extra money that wouldn't be seen otherwise. Far too much "someone else will pay" then "thanks for the cash, shut it".

SMISA could have been the vehicle, my question is why they aren't. They know it isn't easy, even arranging a lottery saw all manner of stumbing blocks when the Fans Council took it up.

Edited by TsuMirren
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I've seen the shysters argument before, but the German model sees companies provide financial support in return for whatever considerations. All this "we should get access first" when someone else was putting money in for whatever area was being developed was nothing short of blinkered bullshit. Nobody is going to put in thousands so that somebody else or a group gets a vote. They put money in to be part of the overall collective with the understanding they'll obviously see something back. So frigging what if someone hired a space for a wednesday until they got their contribution back, the fact the space is then there means it can be used to get extra money that wouldn't be seen otherwise. Far too much "someone else will pay" then "thanks for the cash, shut it".

SMISA could have been the vehicle, my question is why they aren't. They know it isn't easy, even arranging a lottery saw all manner of stumbing blocks when the Fans Council took

The Kibble Group of Wannabe, The Mp, or The Happy church ? That's what 10,000 Whores where all About, Praying that the praying Sheep would Follow ? thumbdown.gif

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I've seen the shysters argument before, but the German model sees companies provide financial support in return for whatever considerations. All this "we should get access first" when someone else was putting money in for whatever area was being developed was nothing short of blinkered bullshit. Nobody is going to put in thousands so that somebody else or a group gets a vote. They put money in to be part of the overall collective with the understanding they'll obviously see something back. So frigging what if someone hired a space for a wednesday until they got their contribution back, the fact the space is then there means it can be used to get extra money that wouldn't be seen otherwise. Far too much "someone else will pay" then "thanks for the cash, shut it".

SMISA could have been the vehicle, my question is why they aren't. They know it isn't easy, even arranging a lottery saw all manner of stumbing blocks when the Fans Council took

The Kibble Group of Wannabe, The Mp, or The Happy church ? That's what 10,000 Whores where all About, Praying that the praying Sheep would Follow ? thumbdown.gif

Obviously, someone paying and saying "here, have it...no, seriously...fill your boots" is a lot easier. We're just not going to get that, so it's either snuggle up with groups with the right view or go pay for it yourself. I'd imagine SMISA might have the same issues raising the cash, but if they don't really push it other than to Saint Mirren fans they'll lose before they start.

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... so in truth we can really have few complaints about the club passing into private ownership. We just have to pray that it works out, and we don't end up in the mess that Gretna, Dundee, Livingston, Hearts and Rangers did.

I won't hold my breath !

So it is a risk you recognise then?

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So it is a risk you recognise then?

Surely the Saint Mirren support are smart enough to see the signs and act. Gretna was always going to happen, Dundee was obvious and Livingston owned nightclubs and the stupid business centre. Hearts was pretty obvious too, once the Scottish players were slowly moved on and Rangers...

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Obviously, someone paying and saying "here, have it...no, seriously...fill your boots" is a lot easier. We're just not going to get that, so it's either snuggle up with groups with the right view or go pay for it yourself. I'd imagine SMISA might have the same issues raising the cash, but if they don't really push it other than to Saint Mirren fans they'll lose before they start.

Naw ! SMISA to me are The Fan's ? Some cobbled up Deal with the Sundry Echoes of Chancer all about It, Was never going To get off the Ground, Unless with the certain culling of the Non Believer ? punk.gif

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it's only a risk and should be recognised as such and move forward with eyes open - indeed hoping and praying that it works out.

What makes you think that St Mirren fans seeing "the signs" and "acting" will be able to make an impact different from those at other clubs?

Don't know what you mean...

I don't know what is happening or if at all BTW & also trust that all will be fine.

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