10000 Hours - Re-Loaded?

[pozbaird]

Well, it's not going to be over 1.3 million and it could be argued that it should be less. Anything to save time, gather momentum, utlise "the mood" and build the interest should be used. Ultimately it could mean moving to a position of control that bit quicker, which should lead to working on the budget and club structure sooner.

Also, it means that we...no wait, everyone aside from you...in the fan base are taking the initiative.

Surely if anyone needs to move fast on this and get it moving, it's the selling consortium, who have been trying to punt the club for an eternity and haven't managed it, while currently watching the club head for fizzy pop land and the first signs of resentment at their stewardship appearing on forums and in the media.

So, the sooner they initiate their meeting to progress possible fan ownership, the better for them surely.

[shull]

Hello Boss !!!

[Bud Bundy]

Lot's of people do appreciate it.

100% Respect for the Bald Yin and his Forum !

[slapsalmon]

As shill alluded to Mr Gilmour was on browsing this thread and never cracked a light. Come on sgg give us a clue

[bud77]

Surely if anyone needs to move fast on this and get it moving, it's the selling consortium, who have been trying to punt the club for an eternity and haven't managed it, while currently watching the club head for fizzy pop land and the first signs of resentment at their stewardship appearing on forums and in the media.

So, the sooner they initiate their meeting to progress possible fan ownership, the better for them surely.

I don't disagree with what you're saying but also I think we should be looking for an idea of how many fans would back this. One of the comments I kept hearing during 10,000 hours was 'What's it all about ?' even after the public meetings and details being on the internet a lot of fans weren't fully aware of the bid. If the club was heading towards administration then there would be plenty of free publicity and lots of people queuing up to join, but we're not in that situation. The SMISA vote of 175 members is hardly representative of the wider support and this forum is probably even less representative so we should be looking at ways of putting it to the wider fanbase through all types of media if only to properly gauge how much support there could be.

[div]

Correct Div, But you also wielded The Ban Hammer when it was getting uncomfortable for your cohorts in the 10,000 whores Fiasco ?

As I recall I banned one member from the forum. He was completely out of control at that point and it was as much for his good as the rest of the forum. I thought that route was preferable to taking legal action, which would undoubtedly have followed if he continued with his ridiculous allegations against myself and a few others. He completely lost the plot.

It's His Ball, And as previously stated, He and his cohorts tried to sell the Fans of SMFC a Dummy in order to give REA, Mr Kibble and Co, A vehicle to fund Gilmour and his fellow Directors Pension Fund ? I have respect for the man and his website and his passion for all things St Mirren ! That failed attempt did not work, But now all of a sudden when the shit has hit the Fan, REA and sundry have suddenly been resurrected during Easter, And Gilmour and Co cant afford Level 5 Pr, So they use the man and his machine to spread the word ?

Anyone who buys the majority shareholding from the selling consortium is funding "Gilmour and his fellow Directors Pension Fund" as it is their pensions that they put in to save the club all those years ago. We aren't talking multi-millionaires here. George Campbell is openly on record as saying it's his pension which is in the club. SG and BM maybe not so much but it's certainly going to be Evelyn Purves' pension too.

I didn't try and sell anyone a dummy. There were at least 4 if not more public meetings on 10000Hours, where the whole thing was discussed at great length.

I spent many many hours putting together the infrastructure to do the payments, creating a system that has since been used by Hearts, Rangers and others to do the same. We were the FIRST to have those systems in place and it took a fair amount of sweat to get it together. I did all of that because I wanted fan ownership to succeed.

I've always maintained that I am no blazer chaser. I have NO wish to be a director of the football club, NO wish to sit on boards or committees. I couldn't care less about it, and I don't have the time or inclination to do it.

All I want to see is the football club I support owned by people who care about it as much as I do.

10000Hours was far from perfect, it was confusing, it had a stop/start existence, but it was the ONLY show in town which was delivering fan ownership, so I backed it just as I will back any future fan led bid.

FWIW I don't think Richard should be directly involved in any new fan bid, but I do think it would be madness to just completely ignore him at the first stages of setting up a new bid. There were a lot of lessons learned and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since at other clubs where he has been involved. That kind of information could be invaluable, preventing mistakes being made and reducing the time to get things going.

[Lord Pityme]

As I recall I banned one member from the forum. He was completely out of control at that point and it was as much for his good as the rest of the forum. I thought that route was preferable to taking legal action, which would undoubtedly have followed if he continued with his ridiculous allegations against myself and a few others. He completely lost the plot.

Anyone who buys the majority shareholding from the selling consortium is funding "Gilmour and his fellow Directors Pension Fund" as it is their pensions that they put in to save the club all those years ago. We aren't talking multi-millionaires here. George Campbell is openly on record as saying it's his pension which is in the club. SG and BM maybe not so much but it's certainly going to be Evelyn Purves' pension too.

I didn't try and sell anyone a dummy. There were at least 4 if not more public meetings on 10000Hours, where the whole thing was discussed at great length.

I spent many many hours putting together the infrastructure to do the payments, creating a system that has since been used by Hearts, Rangers and others to do the same. We were the FIRST to have those systems in place and it took a fair amount of sweat to get it together. I did all of that because I wanted fan ownership to succeed.

I've always maintained that I am no blazer chaser. I have NO wish to be a director of the football club, NO wish to sit on boards or committees. I couldn't care less about it, and I don't have the time or inclination to do it.

All I want to see is the football club I support owned by people who care about it as much as I do.

10000Hours was far from perfect, it was confusing, it had a stop/start existence, but it was the ONLY show in town which was delivering fan ownership, so I backed it just as I will back any future fan led bid.

FWIW I don't think Richard should be directly involved in any new fan bid, but I do think it would be madness to just completely ignore him at the first stages of setting up a new bid. There were a lot of lessons learned and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since at other clubs where he has been involved. That kind of information could be invaluable, preventing mistakes being made and reducing the time to get things going.

Like and agree with most of that.

If Richard is back why not Tommy C though..? Is it not the very same madness to just completely ignore him with the lessons he has obviously learned too? Tommy has only had one crack at it whilst Richard must be on version 4.1 by now.

[pozbaird]

Like and agree with most of that.

If Richard is back why not Tommy C though..? Is it not the very same madness to just completely ignore him with the lessons he has obviously learned too? Tommy has only had one crack at it whilst Richard must be on version 4.1 by now.

This has gone past boring. If you think Richard Atkinson is a snake oil selling dickhead charlatan - we get it.

Look folk are trying to move this on. I happen to believe the selling consortium should be driving it out of the forecourt to get it going, but I can discuss that without being any more of a knobhead than I am usually. I'll cut you a deal, I will never mention the Hall of Fame panels not being updated ever again, while SGs consortium is still in charge, if you try to leave out the repetiitive and un-necessary shite about Richard Atkinson in every post.

Sounds a fair offer to me, and I'm not even looking for £1.5 million to see it happen.

Edited April 12, 2015 by pozbaird

[div]

Like and agree with most of that.

If Richard is back why not Tommy C though..? Is it not the very same madness to just completely ignore him with the lessons he has obviously learned too? Tommy has only had one crack at it whilst Richard must be on version 4.1 by now.

Richard isn't "back".

I'd wager he knows a lot more about community interest companies than anyone else within our support and personally I think ignoring that resource would be a mistake. Personally I'm not a fan of reinventing the wheel.

Should Richard be directly involved in any new group who are proposing to put together a fan led bid for the club ? No.

Should Richard be used as a free resource for information and advice if and when it is needed ? Absolutely in my opinion.

Despite all the history of 10000Hours, the good and the bad, the goals of a community interest company remain aligned perfectly to that of fan ownership of a football club. The two primary aims of a CIC are stated as being;

1. Assets owned by the company are held in an asset lock which secures those assets to applications for the good use of community.

2. Limitations applied to dividend and interest payments made to shareholders and financiers ensure a profit can be made, but the primary focus remains on achieving benefit for the community

Those should be key cornerstones of any fan ownership bid in my opinion. It's crucial that the assets are locked away and that money stays within the company. The word "CIC" brings out the cold sweats I am sure but it remains the right organisation type in my opinion for the company owning the football club.

[Drew]

Few things will turn people off in terms of a new fan ownership initiative than yet another petty bitchfest about 10000Hours and Richard Atkinson.

Its old, it's tired, and, above all, it's corrosive.

If we all genuinely care about the club as we claim, can we not put that behind us (though, of course, learn if we can from the various mistakes and other issues encountered, but in a constructive way)?

I'm out my depth in terms of the business side of this - no question about that. To be blunt, it makes my head spin. I will, however, do what I can to support a viable way forward.

I will quickly lose interest and any hope that this can succeed if we are subjected to yet more sniping in yet another thread. I can't imagine I would be the only one.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Drew

[RickMcD]

Like and agree with most of that.

If Richard is back why not Tommy C though..? Is it not the very same madness to just completely ignore him with the lessons he has obviously learned too? Tommy has only had one crack at it whilst Richard must be on version 4.1 by now.

You just can't let go. I've never set eye on Richard, don't have a clue what he's like in person but can you share with us why you have this hatred for him. If he has done anything out of order or underhand, can you share it with us? There are guys posting on here whose opinions I would respect more than yours and they seem to be suggesting we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Is everyone wrong bar you?

[TsuMirren]

You just can't let go. I've never set eye on Richard, don't have a clue what he's like in person but can you share with us why you have this hatred for him. If he has done anything out of order or underhand, can you share it with us? There are guys posting on here whose opinions I would respect more than yours and they seem to be suggesting we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Is everyone wrong bar you?

Just to add that it'd be nice if you post the reply, no doubt laden with sniping, in a thread of its own.

As for evrrything else. Let's get together and do this.

[div]

One of the things I learned last time is that it's actually impossible to please ALL the supporters no matter what you do.

It'd be great to have everyone pulling in the same direction but everyone is entitled to their opinion of course and there will always be those who are suspicious of the motives of anyone involved in a bid for the club. That's not such a bad thing to a point, there is no harm in being the devils advocate but similarly there is no point in continually going over old ground in my opinion.

Richard will NOT lead a fan led bid for the club again, and nor should he in my opinion. It's time for someone else to step up to the plate and put their head up there to be shot at. We need clout in the local community, identifiable Saints men or women who the fans, offline and online, can relate to and trust.

[Drew]

One of the things I learned last time is that it's actually impossible to please ALL the supporters no matter what you do.

It'd be great to have everyone pulling in the same direction but everyone is entitled to their opinion of course and there will always be those who are suspicious of the motives of anyone involved in a bid for the club. That's not such a bad thing to a point, there is no harm in being the devils advocate but similarly there is no point in continually going over old ground in my opinion.

Richard will NOT lead a fan led bid for the club again, and nor should he in my opinion. It's time for someone else to step up to the plate and put their head up there to be shot at. We need clout in the local community, identifiable Saints men or women who the fans, offline and online, can relate to and trust.

Having not lived in the town for over 20 years, now, I feel a bit out of touch. Are there many high(ish) profile figures who could be approached to get involved? We obviously have a few 'celeb' supporters, but, like everyone else, they are likely to be busy doing their own thing.

Without expecting you to name names on here, Div, can you think of any candidates?

[faraway saint]

One of the things I learned last time is that it's actually impossible to please ALL the supporters no matter what you do.

It'd be great to have everyone pulling in the same direction but everyone is entitled to their opinion of course and there will always be those who are suspicious of the motives of anyone involved in a bid for the club. That's not such a bad thing to a point, there is no harm in being the devils advocate but similarly there is no point in continually going over old ground in my opinion.

Richard will NOT lead a fan led bid for the club again, and nor should he in my opinion. It's time for someone else to step up to the plate and put their head up there to be shot at. We need clout in the local community, identifiable Saints men or women who the fans, offline and online, can relate to and trust.

Shull?

[bud77]

Richard isn't "back".

I'd wager he knows a lot more about community interest companies than anyone else within our support and personally I think ignoring that resource would be a mistake. Personally I'm not a fan of reinventing the wheel.

Should Richard be directly involved in any new group who are proposing to put together a fan led bid for the club ? No.

Should Richard be used as a free resource for information and advice if and when it is needed ? Absolutely in my opinion.

Despite all the history of 10000Hours, the good and the bad, the goals of a community interest company remain aligned perfectly to that of fan ownership of a football club. The two primary aims of a CIC are stated as being;

1. Assets owned by the company are held in an asset lock which secures those assets to applications for the good use of community.

2. Limitations applied to dividend and interest payments made to shareholders and financiers ensure a profit can be made, but the primary focus remains on achieving benefit for the community

Those should be key cornerstones of any fan ownership bid in my opinion. It's crucial that the assets are locked away and that money stays within the company. The word "CIC" brings out the cold sweats I am sure but it remains the right organisation type in my opinion for the company owning the football club.

One of the organisations we should look for help from is Supporter's direct with their vast experience of helping fan takeovers and one of the members of SD Scotland council happens to be REA. Now whether it would be Richard involved or someone else wouldn't matter in my opinion but their knowledge isn't something we should refuse

http://www.supporters-direct.org/homepage/what-we-do/scotland

MISSION

SD will increase the influence of supporters through ownership and involvement in their clubs

We will strive to ensure that all fans have the opportunity to have maximum involvement in the ownership and running of their clubs to enhance their club’s social and cultural value.

SD will seek to improve the way our game is run

We will develop policies and campaigns to improve the way that the game is governed for all clubs, all supporters and their local communities.

SD will always seek opportunities to increase its work in other countries – and in other sports

We work primarily in football, but we believe that our approach can work in other sports too.

Find out what we do and where

[bud77]

with reference to my earlier point about not being the right time . . .

from WSC May 2015 edition

..the local government committee of the Scottish Parliament has recently supported amendments to a bill. If passed, this would give supporters' trusts a first refusal to buy their own club in the event of it being put up for sale, at a price assessed by an appointed valuer.

As Div has already said it's doubtful whether this would stand up to proper scrutiny, I'm not a legal expert but would imaging there could possible be some breach of company law, EU free trade legislation, not to mention how do you deal with clubs who are traded on the stock market - could their shares only be sold to one group. I think the possible legal challenges could mean it would be years before there is a proper resolution

[scotty]

Does anyone know how many of each type of share have been issued over the years, the original price and current price being paid by any individual/company/group?

[buddiecat]

If SMISA had said they were looking into Fan Ownership out with of the SMISA group then whose to say people wouldn't have stepped forward? They have stated they don't have the resource, but when their membership is less than 20% of current season ticket holders it's no wonder they didn't have the resource.

If SMISA came out and said we are interested in moving forward and purchasing the club and we need x amount of volunteers and x amount of members willing to increase monthly membership by an addition £10 if we went ahead then I would have signed up right away.

What's interesting is SMISA are slating the BoD for non engagement but when they considered this they didn't engage with the rest of the supporters. Now I know Buddiecat is Peter Black who is part of SMISA I now understand why he has such a bee in his bonnet.

I think it's quite clear now SMISA have some issue with Rea but it's important to note SMISA with their membership as it is don't speak for the majority of supporters. If any Fan Ownership is going to happen then engagement with Richard who has been through the process would be invaluable.

The only reason I would join SMISA would be if they were fronting a bid for take over of the club or if I felt we needed to starting building funds in the event of mismanagement of new owners.

I'm not slating the work SMISA have done here btw.

Tam you would be wrong in assuming SMISA has any issue with REA. You may be assuming that some other posters on here are talking on behalf of SMISA, if you are then that would also be wrong. Posts from SMISA will be made under the SMISA profile, any other posts are the views of individuals.

[Lord Pityme]

This has gone past boring. If you think Richard Atkinson is a snake oil selling dickhead charlatan - we get it.

Look folk are trying to move this on. I happen to believe the selling consortium should be driving it out of the forecourt to get it going, but I can discuss that without being any more of a knobhead than I am usually. I'll cut you a deal, I will never mention the Hall of Fame panels not being updated ever again, while SGs consortium is still in charge, if you try to leave out the repetiitive and un-necessary shite about Richard Atkinson in every post.

Sounds a fair offer to me, and I'm not even looking for £1.5 million to see it happen.

Richard isn't "back".

I'd wager he knows a lot more about community interest companies than anyone else within our support and personally I think ignoring that resource would be a mistake. Personally I'm not a fan of reinventing the wheel.

Should Richard be directly involved in any new group who are proposing to put together a fan led bid for the club ? No.

Should Richard be used as a free resource for information and advice if and when it is needed ? Absolutely in my opinion.

Despite all the history of 10000Hours, the good and the bad, the goals of a community interest company remain aligned perfectly to that of fan ownership of a football club. The two primary aims of a CIC are stated as being;

1. Assets owned by the company are held in an asset lock which secures those assets to applications for the good use of community.

2. Limitations applied to dividend and interest payments made to shareholders and financiers ensure a profit can be made, but the primary focus remains on achieving benefit for the community

Those should be key cornerstones of any fan ownership bid in my opinion. It's crucial that the assets are locked away and that money stays within the company. The word "CIC" brings out the cold sweats I am sure but it remains the right organisation type in my opinion for the company owning the football club.

Just to add that it'd be nice if you post the reply, no doubt laden with sniping, in a thread of its own.

As for evrrything else. Let's get together and do this.

As things stand with the pitiful position our club is in a fan led buyout would seem the only likely way to move the club forward again. But it does not come without substantial risk and problems. Dundee went for it and it lasted two years before a acrimonious debacle saw the fans surrender ownership to an American outfit, Hearts fans raised near £1million whilst in administration that just went into the club giving the fans nothing, indeed with that million and what their members have amassed since they could actually own their club with a healthy bank balance to boot.

Instead Ann Budge owns it, will get interest on her loan and has free reign to spend the member contributions as she wishes! Will there be enough in the kitty to ever pay her back?

Rangers may have over 13000 fans in their trust but they own hee-haw, the new Board don't even own the badges never mind being able to sell the jerseys! Does anyone seriously believe Ashley, or King is going to allow anything more than a token fan representation on the board whilst gleefully tucking into their subs?

The point I am making is it is hard enough to convince enough people to contribute, and get involved in a Successful fan led bid whilst hanging onto the baggage of the past. Six or seven people debating it on here mean nothing, your opinion or my opinion is just that an individuals opinion! We need to garner the opinion, support and contributions of at least the 1200 who pledged before to have a snowball in hells chance of making it work.

The line that 'Richard isn't back' is hollow when he is all over this organising this, proposing that, advising on anything that he sees fit, and that will not be lost on the majority, not six or seven on here who were treated with contempt last time round, try selling it to them when they find out the guy that f**ked it up last time is pulling the strings! It will make a bloody difficult task, a damn near impossible one to pull off.

I want a fan led bid as there isn't anything else on the horizon to change our fortunes, what I don't want is to do the same things over again and expect a different outcome!

And as for the line above suggesting post your reply on another thread, thats a stunner if your in the business of trying to get more than 1200 saints fans to come together yo buy the club, are you related to Gerald Ratner per chance?

[class of 76-77]

There hasn't been any word as of yet about another tilt at fan ownership, yet the same people seem hell bent on f**king up the only viable route forward. For a small club with a hardcore support of around 3,500 we have a high percentage of total screwballs with their own agenda. It's now starting to sicken the decent fans who only want to see a way forward that gives the club a fighting chance.

[waldorf34]

DO NOT REWARD FAILED DIRECTORS WITH A BONUS

Their pension pot is empty because they have missed the million pound we ,the supporters, put into the club every year through the turnstile ,hospitality and shirt sales etc.

By all means raise money asap because we need a new manager and seven players for next season, but put it into the club,demand representation on the board to control where the money is spent.

Do not give them the cash,

[pozbaird]

The line that 'Richard isn't back' is hollow when he is all over this organising this, proposing that, advising on anything that he sees fit, and that will not be lost on the majority, not six or seven on here who were treated with contempt last time round, try selling it to them when they find out the guy that f**ked it up last time is pulling the strings! It will make a bloody difficult task, a damn near impossible one to pull off.

My bet is off - after one post. Setting you to ignore with immediate effect so I don't need to read any more of your repetitive, and frankly inaccurate shite.

Now, about these Hall of Fame panels. Nearly two years SG, what's the problem?

[Lord Pityme]

There hasn't been any word as of yet about another tilt at fan ownership, yet the same people seem hell bent on f**king up the only viable route forward. For a small club with a hardcore support of around 3,500 we have a high percentage of total screwballs with their own agenda. It's now starting to sicken the decent fans who only want to see a way forward that gives the club a fighting chance.

If I am one of your 'screwballs' then I wear that badge with honour! I wont sit idly by and see any decent attempt to get a fan led bid up and running crash at the first hurdle because the media are taking the pish out of the bid because the guy who failed so many times before is pulling the strings.

The same guy who last time had agreed to give away the revenue generating streams to his pals before a fan got anywhere near the inner workings of 10k hours. He'll be at it again.

'Fan Led'... yes!

'FanBoy Led'.... Nae chance!

Edited April 12, 2015 by Lord Pityme

[Lord Pityme]

My bet is off - after one post. Setting you to ignore with immediate effect so I don't need to read any more of your repetitive, and frankly inaccurate shite.

Now, about these Hall of Fame panels. Nearly two years SG, what's the problem?

And pray tell what is inaccurate? And if you've got me on ignore why are you reading this?

P.s. I don't expect a reply as theres nowt inaccurate!