10000 Hours - Re-Loaded?

[div]

You pay what you can afford for what? Nobody pays anything for anything without knowing what they are buying. There would have to be due diligence carried out into the state of the club's finances, its assets, its debts and so on. The valuation could easily be built into that process.

It's difficult to put a value on the club, but at the end of the day the selling consortium will decide what they believe their shares are worth, or more accurately how much they need to sell them for in order to get their own money back.

It's a sellers market, unless there are no buyers I suppose !

[pozbaird]

There's a more immediate problem I can see. When the club was originally put up for sale, the sellers had a ton of goodwill in the 'we saved the club' tank. The debt cleared, a shiny new easy-to-maintain ground (which would attract players to St Mirren instead of manky old Love Street putting them off), a dedicated training complex, top flight status, and a support pissing themselves laughing at the Rangers and Hearts.

When the 10000hours bid came along, supporters in bloody good numbers committed to DD pledges. The whole 10000hours package to the selling consortium would have seen the selling consortium get their money to 'get out with legacy intact' but that money would have come from a variety of sources, not just the fan DD pledges. Now, if my memory serves me correctly, as 10000hours negotiations rumbled on, many fans voiced concern about the amount of money that would be going 'into the pockets' of the selling consortium, but many still said they would grit their teeth and remain on board.

If indeed the seling consortium are now 'open' to fan ownership, they are in a somewhat different position than five or so years ago. We are sitting here today talking about getting fans to pledge money again to raise anything between 800k and 1.2 million - to a selling consortium who are now seeing resentment towards their stewardship of the club. Managerial appointments, selling McLean, absolutely zero communication with the support until a prod in the ribs from SMiSA, comments of 'knickerwetters and keyboard warriors' at the AGM? Dismissive looks from George Campbell, SGs comments about 'a minority' of fans turning against the team - I haven't heard anyone turning against the team at games. (After Tuesday's disgrace that may change admittedly)....and to top it all, relegation beckons.

Their stock, with the support at large, can I humbly suggest, has never been lower. Yet, they are open to fan ownership? In a conversation with Div? Have I missed their press conference to tell the St Mirren support this news? Have I missed a story on the club website? An appearance on BBC Scotland or STV news sports section reaching out to the support? Are any of these things going to happen, or will their silence and dismissive attitude to the St Mirren support continue - until ST renewal letter time naturally.

I can obviously only speak for myself, so will do so. I am very much baulking at my hard-earned going directly towards raising 800k to 1.2 million for this selling consortium, whereas five(ish) years ago I was onboard with the 10000hours bid plan which would have seen them get their money. Now, I realise some might say, you need to think beyond that, to the next ten, twenty, thirty years... you need to see the bigger picture. Well, fair enough, but I'm sorry, until they can at least treat us with a bit more respect and engage with us in a manner that doesn't involve accusing us of being keyboard warriors or knickerwetters - or simply just completely ignoring us... then I'm out.

Edited April 9, 2015 by pozbaird

[rea]

There's a more immediate problem I can see. When the club was originally put up for sale, the sellers had a ton of goodwill in the 'we saved the club' tank. The debt cleared, a shiny new easy-to-maintain ground (which would attract players to St Mirren instead of manky old Love Street putting them off), a dedicated training complex, top flight status, and a support pissing themselves laughing at the Rangers and Hearts.

When the 10000hours bid came along, supporters in bloody good numbers committed to DD pledges. The whole 10000hours package to the selling consortium would have seen the selling consortium get their money to 'get out with legacy intact' but that money would have come from a variety of sources, not just the fan DD pledges. Now, if my memory serves me correctly, as 10000hours negotiations rumbled on, many fans voiced concern about the amount of money that would be going 'into the pockets' of the selling consortium, but many still said they would grit their teeth and remain on board.

If indeed the seling consortium are now 'open' to fan ownership, they are in a somewhat different position than five or so years ago. We are sitting here today talking about getting fans to pledge money again to raise anything between 800k and 1.2 million - to a selling consortium who are now seeing resentment towards their stewardship of the club. Managerial appointments, selling McLean, absolutely zero communication with the support until a prod in the ribs from SMiSA, comments of 'knickerwetters and keyboard warriors' at the AGM? Dismissive looks from George Campbell, SGs comments about 'a minority' of fans turning against the team - I haven't heard anyone turning against the team at games. (After Tuesday's disgrace that may change admittedly)....and to top it all, relegation beckons.

Their stock, with the support at large, can I humbly suggest, has never been lower. Yet, they are open to fan ownership? In a conversation with Div? Have I missed their press conference to tell the St Mirren support this news? Have I missed a story on the club website? An appearance on BBC Scotland or STV news sports section reaching out to the support? Are anybof these things going to happen, or will their silence and dismissive attitude to the St Mirren support continue - until ST renewal letter time naturally.

I can obviously only speak for myself, so will do so. I am very much baulking at my hard-earned going directly towards 800k to 1.2 million for this selling consortium, whereas five(ish) years ago I was onboard with the 10000hours bid plan. Now, I realise some might say, you need to think beyond that, to the next ten, twenty, thirty years... you need to see the bigger picture. Well, fair enough, but I'm sorry, until they can at least treat us with a bit more respect and engage with us in a manner that doesn't involve accusing us of being keyboard warriors or knickerwetters - or simply just completely ignoring us... then I'm out.

a completely reasonable argument. but as a counterpoint one of the big 10000hours was the apathy from the "it is all going ok, what would we want to change it" brigade.

so a crisis, such as relegation (should it come to pass) can also bring more people together as the "problem" is more readily identifiable

[melmac]

Here here.

[pozbaird]

a completely reasonable argument. but as a counterpoint one of the big 10000hours was the apathy from the "it is all going ok, what would we want to change it" brigade.

so a crisis, such as relegation (should it come to pass) can also bring more people together as the "problem" is more readily identifiable

Fans could indeed 'come together' in a time of crisis - but if relegation is that crisis which is bringing the question of fan ownership up again, then under what banner and leadership are fans being asked to come together? All I know is that SG and Div had a wee talk at a game.

SMiSA (understandably) have no-one willing to do what you did - stick your head above the parapet and be the figurehead of a new 'fan bid'. There is no St Mirren version of Ann Budge or Fergus McCann, or they would have appeared over the last five years.

Fan ownership? Sounds great, I look forward to seeing the selling consortium's vision that will facilitate it. I look forward to the detail, the meetings in the corporate suite, hearing from any (as yet invisible) 'Ann Budge', 'Fergus McCann', or indeed it should be said, 'REA' who can glue the whole thing together and give it a focus.

Edited April 9, 2015 by pozbaird

[rea]

Fans could indeed 'come together' in a time of crisis - but if relegation is that crisis which is bringing the question of fan ownership up again, then under what banner and leadership are fans being asked to come together? All I know is that SG and Div had a wee talk at a game.

SMiSA (understandably) have no-one willing to do what you did - stick your head above the parapet and be the figurehead of a new 'fan bid'. There is no St Mirren version of Ann Budge or Fergus McCann, or they would have appeared over the last five years.

Fan ownership? Sounds great, I look forward to seeing the selling consortium's vision that will facilitate it. I look forward to the detail, the meetings in the corporate suite, hearing from any (as yet invisible) 'Ann Budge', 'Fergus McCann', or indeed it should be said, 'REA' who can glue the whole thing together and give it a focus.

and there was me thinking you were volunteering?

in all my experience since 10000hours the single most important resourse for any Fan scheme is I.T....so the question first needing answered will be if not Div then who will put their hand up for doing the I.T

[magnus]

due diligence if different. that can all be done.

the choice is over paying one of the "big four" to do or getting stuck in a doing it yourself. the reason two of us from 10000hours went on the board was to do the due diligence from the inside, it is fairly straight forward, it is not a big or complicated company.

the figure of what it is worth is not relevant....it is what are those selling it for willing to accept. As a football Club it makes no profit for distribution to Shareholders and so in any traditional business sense it is worth nothing

That's an important point to kick off with - the club doesn't have a market value. It only has a value to the fans or consortiums that see it as a vehicle for some other business opportunity. 10000 hours did due diligence and offered so all must have looked ok. Richard's suggestion to see how much the support can come up with might be worth pursuing.

[magnus]

and there was me thinking you were volunteering?

in all my experience since 10000hours the single most important resourse for any Fan scheme is I.T....so the question first needing answered will be if not Div then who will put their hand up for doing the I.T

I would vote DIV

[pozbaird]

I would vote DIV

If it's to happen at all, I vote for the selling consortium making the first move, being pro-active for once, and reaching out to SMiSA, the fan council, the supporter's clubs, and fans in general.

Tell us what's on their mind and where they want to go with this. Let's see where we are then.

Richard did it. Like him, loathe him, or anywhere in-between, he started by approaching small groups of fans, stepped it up to open meetings, made himself available online, produced online and printed literature...

He tried - you cannot accuse him of not trying. I'm prepared to listen to what the selling consortium have to say, so let's hear it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by pozbaird

[Gruffalo]

He's talking about a personal loan type product I assume. So if you want £1K, you go to your bank, they give you the money, you make regular payments, with interest, to pay it back over a period of time.

In this case the upfront money would go to the sellers, leaving you with the debt to repay via your monthly installments.

There is no tie to future income streams of the club, it's tied to your own personal income stream !

This is the sort of model that SG was alluding to as it removes the risk to the sellers of the buyers making a few direct debits then taking the huff and stopping them.

I presume the idea would be that the consortium would be paid over a period as the money is accumulated through fans membership.

Guarantees work both ways. While the Fans Council may put in place some sort of financial bond to guarantee the current consortium get their money. What guarantees would be requested of the board to ensure that the club is valued the same when the final transaction is to be made.

When 10000hrs was first muted the club was valued by the sellers at £2m for their 52 %. We know that over the period they have increased this share up to 75%. What do they deem the club to be worth now.

[Mid Calder Saint]

Rea.Would be fantastic if we could get Fan Ownership off and running.We must remember here that Hearts Foundation was instigated due to their Administration and created funds to keep the club going.Ann Budge came along later with £2m to buy the club and will be repaid in due course.We would be starting from scratch and buying the consortium's shareholding to take control of our club.The Fans could start with a reasonable offer of say £800k payable in annual instalments over say a four period giving the sellers around £200k per annum.From that we could determine the number of fans necessary to contribute via monthly Direct Debit Payments.We could then hold a series of meetings to take matters forward elect Office Bearers etc.Rea would you be willing to get the ball rolling given your expertise?

[rea]

Rea.Would be fantastic if we could get Fan Ownership off and running.We must remember here that Hearts Foundation was instigated due to their Administration and created funds to keep the club going.Ann Budge came along later with £2m to buy the club and will be repaid in due course.We would be starting from scratch and buying the consortium's shareholding to take control of our club.The Fans could start with a reasonable offer of say £800k payable in annual instalments over say a four period giving the sellers around £200k per annum.From that we could determine the number of fans necessary to contribute via monthly Direct Debit Payments.We could then hold a series of meetings to take matters forward elect Office Bearers etc.Rea would you be willing to get the ball rolling given your expertise?

I am happy to organise a meeting for a few folk to come to where I can share my thoughts on how a new group would learn from my mistakes. If that then leads to some folk stepping up to take it forward then great.

If anyone is interested then PM me a meeting for a dozen or so to kick it around for an afternoon would be sufficient.

So if you fancy it PM me.

[Drew]

He tried - you cannot accuse him of not trying. I'm prepared to listen to what the selling consortium have to say, so let's hear it.

Absolutely this.

If I was was trying to sell my house to a potential buyer I'd be wiping the skirting boards, brewing the freshly ground coffee, and sending the kids round to stay at their pals for a few months. Anything that would make my house an attractive buy for someone.

Our current custodians have had the gas cut off, left the empties lying at the back door, and taken a shite in the rubber plant's pot. To compound matters, they delivered a swift boot to the stones of the potential buyers when they came for a look around at 7.45pm on Tuesday 7th April.

If there is to be the remotest hope of this getting off the ground, they now need to show willing to retrieve a bad situation and demonstrate even a modicum of respect for the potential purchasers. As things stand just now, while I'd take a punt if it meant trying to secure the future of the club, my trust in Gilmour and his cronies couldn't be much lower.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Drew

[aldo_j]

If it's to happen at all, I vote for the selling consortium making the first move, being pro-active for once, and reaching out to SMiSA, the fan council, the supporter's clubs, and fans in general.

Tell us what's on their mind and where they want to go with this. Let's see where we are then.

Richard did it. Like him, loathe him, or anywhere in-between, he started by approaching small groups of fans, stepped it up to open meetings, made himself available online, produced online and printed literature...

He tried - you cannot accuse him of not trying. I'm prepared to listen to what the selling consortium have to say, so let's hear it.

Nail on head. They want their money then let's see what they have to say. What model do they propose?

They can offer up the option, gather opinion and a working group could be formed from those interested. It's not difficult for them to get it off the ground if they really wanted, a poll on the website and utilise media streams.

[bud77]

If it's to happen at all, I vote for the selling consortium making the first move, being pro-active for once, and reaching out to SMiSA, the fan council, the supporter's clubs, and fans in general.

Tell us what's on their mind and where they want to go with this. Let's see where we are then.

Richard did it. Like him, loathe him, or anywhere in-between, he started by approaching small groups of fans, stepped it up to open meetings, made himself available online, produced online and printed literature...

He tried - you cannot accuse him of not trying. I'm prepared to listen to what the selling consortium have to say, so let's hear it.

I agree with what you're saying about the board making the first move especially after they rejected the 10,000 hours proposal.

Having said that after the 10,000 hours bid I decided that since I had cash I could put towards that every month I might as well put it into a bank account, there's over £1,000 that I would be willing, in principle, to give up front.

[Mid Calder Saint]

Great there are three fans here right now in West Lothian ready to sign up.Lets get the first meeting arranged.

[Drew]

There would need to be some form of valuation. I'm not buying the line that the shares are worth what the consortium are willing to accept for them. The value is what anyone is willing to pay for them.

We will be a newly relegated F/T club with all the financial challenges that this entails. I suspect that this will devalue the shares considerably. At a guess, I'm thinking aroung the £800K mark. If they are looking for much more than this then they not just deluded, but mercenary into the bargain.

[Lord Pityme]

Are the powers that Rea at 10000 hours about to make a move again for the club? Reading between the lines of communication (which in 10000 hours case are usually months apart) we have:

Rea all over the forum again...

His band of trolls back on the defensive....

Sevco got a brand new pig-bag of a Bod so he's surplus to requirements....

And todays date...

Coincidence..? You decide..!

It might have been April Fools day but as if by magic a week later here we have the guy who let down so many, whose Final proposal (there were a few) was deemed unsustainable by the sellers, who disappeared for months on end, told us the funding etc was "in the bag"' and whose proposal saw how many saints fans on the board of the club their money would purchase? None thats how many. Yeah he looks like a messiah to me, and I should know I've followed a few!

[Drew]

It might have been April Fools day but as if by magic a week later here we have the guy who let down so many, whose Final proposal (there were a few) was deemed unsustainable by the sellers, who disappeared for months on end, told us the funding etc was "in the bag"' and whose proposal saw how many saints fans on the board of the club their money would purchase? None thats how many. Yeah he looks like a messiah to me, and I should know I've followed a few!

Aye, we get it.

[garzo]

I've said for a while now I'd like to be a member as well as season ticket holder & supporter of the club.

I've felt distant & kept at arms length for a while now.

If this came to pass it would be our club & I'd feel part of St Mirren FC again.

Happy to contribute towards a sensible offer for control of the club.

[bud77]

I've said for a while now I'd like to be a member as well as season ticket holder & supporter of the club.

I've felt distant & kept at arms length for a while now.

If this came to pass it would be our club & I'd feel part of St Mirren FC again.

Happy to contribute towards a sensible offer for control of the club.

That is one big reason that I don;t think too many fans would pull out - having more of a connection to the club rather than just being a customer.

[Lord Pityme]

Aye, we get it.

You think the 'off the record' conversations, the sellers suddenly letting it be known they are bang up for fan ownership etc and now this back door attempt to get the fans to 'ask' him to get involved, him saying ' ach well ok if your asking me to' are pure coincidence..?

Wake up and smell the Bovril..! Its so clumsy I almost mistook it for a Gordon McQueen forty yard charge to goal.

[pozbaird]

It might have been April Fools day but as if by magic a week later here we have the guy who let down so many, whose Final proposal (there were a few) was deemed unsustainable by the sellers, who disappeared for months on end, told us the funding etc was "in the bag"' and whose proposal saw how many saints fans on the board of the club their money would purchase? None thats how many. Yeah he looks like a messiah to me, and I should know I've followed a few!

Who would you fancy 'at the helm' of any new fan takeover? From whom you know out there to be 'St Mirren minded' and a possible candidate.

We are a small family, we know the names of relatively high-profile fans, the SMiSA guys, the fan council....

Finally, would you subject them to the same scrutiny as those at the helm of the 10000hours bid.

[div]

Although I have no wish at all to be "involved" in any new fan bid other than as a contributor I am happy to lend any IT skills or Web services I can offer to anyone serious about launching a bid.

What I said to SG on Tuesday was that I would talk to the guys at SMiSA and see where they were at, as to me they certainly must back any bid even if they themselves did not want to front it. I spoke to Paul Goodwin the other week too, he has just set up the new independent fans association and would be up for offering advice, and there are lessons to be learned too from what's happened at Hearts and at Motherwell all since 10000Hours came about.

I said I was up for trying to get people together to discuss the feasibility of the whole thing but I am quite clear I don't want to get as involved as I did the last time.

[div]

Who would you fancy 'at the helm' of any new fan takeover? From whom you know out there to be 'St Mirren minded' and a possible candidate.

We are a small family, we know the names of relatively high-profile fans, the SMiSA guys, the fan council....

Finally, would you subject them to the same scrutiny as those at the helm of the 10000hours bid.

I think we would need some pretty high profile saints fans backing such a bid, even if only to provide the face of it to the media.

The likes of Dougie Vipond, Chick Young (yes him), Brookmyre, Tony Fitz, Vanzy, the sort of people the fans can relate to as being "one of us" but who also carry some weight in the media. We definitely need a "figurehead".