No Ambition. And A Fool As Manager.

[ds10]

You asked me whether I thought the current situation at the club is acceptable. I was offering a bit of perspective. Let's assume you don't think it is acceptable, what do you suggest?

My point was that, in the grand scheme of things, football is football. It is occasionally great, but often a bit shite. For me, that is perfectly acceptable, given what else is going on around me.

The lowest point in St Mirren's history I can remember is the 1997-1998 season when we were saved from relegation from the first division by Hugh Murray’s goal.

Within the space of a season we have gone from an established Premiership club, all the way back to 1998, teetering above the drop zone in the 2nd tier of Scottish football. (This time having been outplayed in two successive games by one of the two teams below us.) Any progress made during Gilmour’s time wiped out.

And even worse, during all that time, little or no attempt to engage with the fans and let them know what’s going on.

How low do we have to fall before somebody actually does something about it?

Now I completely get the point about the fact that there are things in life way more important than the results (or the existence) of a football club.

But as a fan, how you can rate the events of the last season and a bit, as acceptable is beyond me.

[Drew]

I'm not sure we could be considered as 'teetering above the drop zone' a mere four games into the season. The club who finished 2nd in this league last season were in much the same position at this stage of the campaign.

The early signs are less than encouraging, certainly, but that is exactly what they are - early signs. You could also look at the scenario of Ross County last season. They looked dead and buried at Christmas, only to go on an astonishing, season saving run in the new year.

If we are still toiling and failing to pick up points by mid-October, that will be the time to start shifting in our seats and levelling hard questions at the manager and BoD.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Drew

[bingboy]

Walkout or booing??

I was specifically referring to the planned walkout at half time in a match. Can't remember who we were playing.

Sitting on our arses booing wouldn't be particularly clever either.

In either case you need to be at the game in the first place and you've already indicated you won't be there.

If it gets bad enough the fans in attendance will make their feelings known loud and clear.

You chucked it before August was out. That's your choice but don't expect everyone to agree with your course of action, or listen to your second hand opinions now.

No one is happy with the performances or results but chucking your toys out of the pram won't help.

[ds10]

I'm not sure we could be considered as 'teetering above the drop zone' a mere four games into the season. The club who finished 2nd in this league last season were in much the same position at this stage of the campaign.

The early signs are less than encouraging, certainly, but that is exactly what they are - early signs. You could also look at the scenario of Ross County last season. They looked dead and buried at Christmas, only to go on an astonishing, season saving run in the new year.

If we are still toiling and failing to pick up points by mid-October, that will be the time to start shifting in our seats and levelling hard questions at the manager and BoD.

Saints are currently in 8th place, one point ahead of Livingston in 9th who have outplayed them in 2 consecutive games. As the bottom 2 teams will be relegated or in a playoff, I think just above the drop zone is an accurate description of the current position.

Saints spent the whole of last season with their head buried in the sand, saying "Tommy Craig is an experienced coach who just needs time to get it right" "Gary Teal is an experienced coach who just needs time to get it right". I think it's now time that it's time that the club accepted there are serious issues and starts to address them.

So you're saying that you need to mid-October to make a judgment on whether the debacle of the last season and a bit can be considered acceptable?

For me, the form of the team is one thing, but the lack of engagement with the fans is not excusable and I think doing lasting and serious harm to the club. I still don't see how that can be considered acceptable.

[Seaside Nipper]

The lowest point in St Mirren's history I can remember is the 1997-1998 season when we were saved from relegation from the first division by Hugh Murray’s goal.

Within the space of a season we have gone from an established Premiership club, all the way back to 1998, teetering above the drop zone in the 2nd tier of Scottish football. (This time having been outplayed in two successive games by one of the two teams below us.) Any progress made during Gilmour’s time wiped out.

And even worse, during all that time, little or no attempt to engage with the fans and let them know what’s going on.

How low do we have to fall before somebody actually does something about it?

Now I completely get the point about the fact that there are things in life way more important than the results (or the existence) of a football club.

But as a fan, how you can rate the events of the last season and a bit, as acceptable is beyond me.

Taking a slight tangent................Your avatar is seriously like salad fingers ............some post apocolyptic weird shit , I'll not even post a linkee here, its a bit too way out there in a Brian Eno sort of way..........................google, I dare ye..........not pornograohic , more psychological trauma , not outa place on this board

[Drew]

Saints are currently in 8th place, one point ahead of Livingston in 9th who have outplayed them in 2 consecutive games. As the bottom 2 teams will be relegated or in a playoff, I think just above the drop zone is an accurate description of the current position.

Saints spent the whole of last season with their head buried in the sand, saying "Tommy Craig is an experienced coach who just needs time to get it right" "Gary Teal is an experienced coach who just needs time to get it right". I think it's now time that it's time that the club accepted there are serious issues and starts to address them.

So you're saying that you need to mid-October to make a judgment on whether the debacle of the last season and a bit can be considered acceptable?

For me, the form of the team is one thing, but the lack of engagement with the fans is not excusable and I think doing lasting and serious harm to the club. I still don't see how that can be considered acceptable.

I've never been slow to criticise the club for what I regard as woeful PR, but, in this instance, what exactly do you want/need to hear from them?

This is a genuine question. Do you expect them to issue a public ultimatum to the manager, or to issue a statement to the effect that they don't think he's the man for the job after all?

You've also failed to respond to my examplesof Hibs and Ross County from last season. I reiterate, it is too early to write off our chances of securing a reasonable (subjective though this inevitably is) outcome to the season.

[exiledfan]

Come on people we are 4 league games into the season. Yes disappointing start and not good we are out the cup. But in last few weeks we have addressed the keeping issue with Langfield, boosted the defence and attack.

This is a team that gelling and hence why we are struggling. Let's see how we get on in a few weeks time.

[buddygreat]

This reminds me, as I have said several times already, of the Jimmy Bone era.

Most of the "happy clappers" as they are known on this forum are too young to remember the 90s. The "five year plan" under Jimmy Bone which resulted in ten years of misery.

I've had enough of the "we are rebuilding in this league" gang and I am calling them a cancer on our club.

I was a big supporter of Murray and Spalding coming in. Looked like a great decision. I was wrong, they do not have a f**king clue. They have a top league level squad and cant beat Dumbarton, Morton or Livingston.

Time for the support to show some f**king ambition. 2 months to sort this shambles out or get these jokers out of town. I really do not want to go through the 90s again!!

I have to disagree. I do not think this squad of players is equipped to compete effectively in this league. The defence is appalling. We've employed big six foot guys with little ability, or athleticism for that part, to basically, get in the way of forwards. Ridgers is a bombscare but so is langfield. His distribution is as bad as ridgers. I don't understand professional footballers. Is it impossible to take half a second to think what you are going to do next? Mcmullan is the only stand out player and he doesn't belong to us. I've said this in a previous post only to be lambasted for my early observations of this team. Problem is, this is the team for the season. It's not good enough because the players aren't. In all our games, bar one, brechin, we've had fewer shots, and less possession than our opponents..I'm not optimistic. Already I see fans staying away and we're only a couple of games in. A good start is always important if you want the backing of fans. And honesty from the board and management as to their expectations for the season would be interesting to hear. Certainly doesn't look like a drive for promotion this season. Really poor all over the pitch

[linwood buddie]

I sneaked into Ralston on Sunday and snapped this, overheard Spaldo telling the boys "This is what to do".......http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-A4NrFQTGRu4/TrKbqRfIzoI/AAAAAAAATpY/6oBkiUxNOFs/s400/braziil-tactics-e1280853501739.png

Edited to add..... Just to let people know im kidding Murray will turn it round .

Edited August 31, 2015 by linwood buddie

[Soctty]

This reminds me, as I have said several times already, of the Jimmy Bone era.

Most of the "happy clappers" as they are known on this forum are too young to remember the 90s. The "five year plan" under Jimmy Bone which resulted in ten years of misery.

I remember that era. I remember long before it too. Murray's been here for 3 months. Away and wring out yer knickers.

I've had enough of the "we are rebuilding in this league" gang and I am calling them a cancer on our club.

You think people being fair and reasonable are a cancer? I'd go and reconsider your words to be honest. As for rebuilding - what would you call letting around 11 players go and signing about 10 in one summer?

I was a big supporter of Murray and Spalding coming in. Looked like a great decision. I was wrong, they do not have a f**king clue. They have a top league level squad and cant beat Dumbarton, Morton or Livingston.

You were a big supporter of the manager coming in, yet you've jerked your knee to such an extent that you've pish streaming down yer leg, after four games. Joker.

Time for the support to show some f**king ambition. 2 months to sort this shambles out or get these jokers out of town. I really do not want to go through the 90s again!!

The "support"? Is that what you call this? Horrific post.

[Soctty]

Saints are currently in 8th place, one point ahead of Livingston in 9th who have outplayed them in 2 consecutive games. As the bottom 2 teams will be relegated or in a playoff, I think just above the drop zone is an accurate description of the current position.

Saints spent the whole of last season with their head buried in the sand, saying "Tommy Craig is an experienced coach who just needs time to get it right" "Gary Teal is an experienced coach who just needs time to get it right". I think it's now time that it's time that the club accepted there are serious issues and starts to address them.

So you're saying that you need to mid-October to make a judgment on whether the debacle of the last season and a bit can be considered acceptable?

For me, the form of the team is one thing, but the lack of engagement with the fans is not excusable and I think doing lasting and serious harm to the club. I still don't see how that can be considered acceptable.

You're right, we're teetering above the drop zone. With only 96 points to play for, I think it's only right that we should accept the inevitable.

Lack of engamement as well - it's horrendous. They should have a Q & A with the manager, assistant manager, chairman and captain. Not had one for about twenty minutes now...

FFS.

[Soctty]

I certainly don't feel any of the players have the onset of apathy quite yet and are still giving it their all.

As I discussed last week, it doesn't seem to be a playing personell issue that's holding us back in the main, it's purely tactical at this point. We DO have the players to get on, we need a gameplan though and that's something we lack just now. A good manager will accept that his plan isn't working and tinker with it quickly.

The comparisons to the management of last season are wholly justified at this point in time for me and it's fair that people have concerns over our direction.

Results at this stage aren't an issue. We will not pass or fail on our expectations this season based on the first five games but negative feeling isn't long in setting in and this will quickly pass onto the players.

I think the manager has to stop tinkering and set out his best eleven, then leave it, let the players get used to the system and personnel. Only then will we see improvement and a bit of structure to our play.

Every week I think we're going to click into gear, but with each game we're changing formation, making alterations to our starting lineup. New players coming in almost every week of the season so far hasn't helped, so hopefully we've finished our incomings and can start to see a bit on continuity on the park.

[JM1]

I don't really know what Murray's "system" is. Going on the performances so far, I'd guess it's to stand off the opposition & don't press them at all, don't dive into any tackles, stick ridigly to your position/zone, take your time getting forward & don't waste possession by having a shot. If it's not this, then I don't think the players know what it is either.

It might suit a team near the bottom of the league who aren't expected to beat most of the teams they come up against - being organised and hard to break down (although our inexperienced & nervous young defenders often end up understandably making mistakes which leads to goals), but it shouldn't be the way a team with arguably the third best squad in the division play.

[Drew]

I think the manager has to stop tinkering and set out his best eleven, then leave it, let the players get used to the system and personnel. Only then will we see improvement and a bit of structure to our play.

Every week I think we're going to click into gear, but with each game we're changing formation, making alterations to our starting lineup. New players coming in almost every week of the season so far hasn't helped, so hopefully we've finished our incomings and can start to see a bit on continuity on the park.

This.

Murray also has to have a bit more belief in his players. We shouldn't be sitting so deep for phases in matches, and need to be more competitive throughout the 90 minutes, not just in spells.

Tinkering is exactly what he seems to have been doing. We need a settled, preferred line-up as you say. This isn't always possible to maintain due to numerous factors, but we lack shape and cohesion when countless changes are made from game to game and during matches.

Murray will also need to learn how best to utilise players. For example, I wouldn't expext to see Baird at right back again (albeit he has limited options in the position, through no great fault on his own part), or Gallagher deployed on the left wing.

I can forgive a degree of experimentation in early matches, but things have to settle over the coming games as he should now know the attributes of the players at his disposal, and know where the deficiencies lie.

[ds10]

You're right, we're teetering above the drop zone. With only 96 points to play for, I think it's only right that we should accept the inevitable.

Lack of engamement as well - it's horrendous. They should have a Q & A with the manager, assistant manager, chairman and captain. Not had one for about twenty minutes now...

FFS.

I don't think I said anywhere in the post that relegation was inevitable. Saints are one point above the relegation places, this is simply a statment of fact. We have also recently been outplayed by the team below us (twice) and the team above us.

As far as engagment is concerned, I think you only have to read some of the comments on here to see how disconnected poeple feel from the club currently.

Whether you agree or disagree with their opinions, surely the best way forward for the club is to keep as many of the supporters onboard as possible?

[Soctty]

I don't think I said anywhere in the post that relegation was inevitable. Saints are one point above the relegation places, this is simply a statment of fact. We have also recently been outplayed by the team below us (twice) and the team above us.

WE'VE PLAYED 4 F******* GAMES! Relegation zones are irrelevant at the moment. The season's barely started. Calm yer jets.

As far as engagment is concerned, I think you only have to read some of the comments on here to see how disconnected poeple feel from the club currently.

We had a Q & A with the manager, assistant, chairman and captain about three weeks ago. Did you go to that?

Do you want these guys to be on the line constantly for whenever you feel like a moan? Accusations of lack of engagement have been levelled in the past, legitimately. To accuse them of the same now is more knickerwetting in the extreme. They won't be at your beck and call for every irrelevant gripe you have, so I'd get used to that.

Whether you agree or disagree with their opinions, surely the best way forward for the club is to keep as many of the supporters onboard as possible?

Supporters are meant to support, not throw their toys out of the pram after four league games. Stating - as the OP did - that you were supportive of the manager when he came in but not now indicates that some are unaware of the meaning of the word "support". The supporters will be on board if we can win some games. Whether the club pander to every bleating forum post will be irrelevant to that outcome.

[BuddieinEK]

Supporters are meant to support, not throw their toys out of the pram after four league games. Stating - as the OP did - that you were supportive of the manager when he came in but not now indicates that some are unaware of the meaning of the word "support". The supporters will be on board if we can win some games. Whether the club pander to every bleating forum post will be irrelevant to that outcome.

I am a supporter.

I am supporting.

I shall continue to support.

I have concerns.

I am expressing my concerns in a constructive manner on a discussion forum.

I shall continue to express my concerns in a constructive manner on the discussion forum whilst I have some.

I shall also share positives on said discussion forum as and when they arise.

None of this makes me any more or less of a supporter!

[Kemp]

Supporters are meant to support, not throw their toys out of the pram after four league games. Stating - as the OP did - that you were supportive of the manager when he came in but not now indicates that some are unaware of the meaning of the word "support". The supporters will be on board if we can win some games. Whether the club pander to every bleating forum post will be irrelevant to that outcome.

Get your head out the sand.

We have been turning in woeful performances for years now.

The point I am making is that this is a direct result of the lack of ambition and lack of leadership around the club. Murray has been told that taking time to rebuild and plodding on for a year or two is fine. This is the exact same as the 90s. Every club moves a lot of players in and out every season nowadays. We, however, seem to have become the worst at it.

I am far from a boo boy but those running the club need to be told enough is enough. If you aim for 11th then it should be no surprise if you finish 12th. If you aim for 5th then it is easy to come 8th or 9th. Wake up.

[Drew]

Get your head out the sand.

We have been turning in woeful performances for years now.

The point I am making is that this is a direct result of the lack of ambition and lack of leadership around the club. Murray has been told that taking time to rebuild and plodding on for a year or two is fine. This is the exact same as the 90s. Every club moves a lot of players in and out every season nowadays. We, however, seem to have become the worst at it.

I am far from a boo boy but those running the club need to be told enough is enough. If you aim for 11th then it should be no surprise if you finish 12th. If you aim for 5th then it is easy to come 8th or 9th. Wake up.

What would you have them do? Right now. Today.

[ds10]

Supporters are meant to support, not throw their toys out of the pram after four league games. Stating - as the OP did - that you were supportive of the manager when he came in but not now indicates that some are unaware of the meaning of the word "support". The supporters will be on board if we can win some games. Whether the club pander to every bleating forum post will be irrelevant to that outcome.

Football is a business. The club should be making continual efforts to maintain their existing support base and also if possible to attract new supporters into the club. They shouldn't be relying on people showing blind faith and optimism. And assuming that everyone who walks through the door will agree with your definition of a "supporter".

As you say accusations of lack of engagement have been levelled legitimately in the past. I'm not making any new accusations, I just don't see any sign that things have improved significantly or at all.

It's not about the club pandering to every bleating forum post, it's about the club communicating effectively with it's fans. Which it doesn't.

For example, (and there are numerous others)

Me & my boy gave up our season tickets after 10 years and by the sounds of it this be the best decision I have ever made. The thought of me and the lad freezing our nuts off in the winter months watching us trying to beat Alloa etc does not represent value for money.

Until the club is sold and someone new comes in with a new outlook and enthusiasm I will just pick and choose the game I come to but with the posts and comments on here it may be a while yet as the entertainment on show seems non existence.

If we continue on the slide I fear we will lose a generation of possible St Mirren supporters who are the future for our club

[Seaside Nipper]

At the risk of incurring the wrath.................

The club is for sale, therefore the current driving force behind the club want away = inertia.

St Mirren fc therefore is presently drowning in its own inertia.

Fans dont like it

It IS that simple.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

You could also look at the scenario of Ross County last season. They looked dead and buried at Christmas, only to go on an astonishing, season saving run in the new year.

Would that be Ross County who fired their manager after seeing enough in the first four league games last season? Just asking!

[Seaside Nipper]

Would that be Ross County who fired their manager after seeing enough in the first four league games last season? Just asking!

Seven pages.....................and rollling strong

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Come on people we are 4 league games into the season. Yes disappointing start and not good we are out the cup. But in last few weeks we have addressed the keeping issue with Langfield, boosted the defence and attack.

This is a team that gelling and hence why we are struggling. Let's see how we get on in a few weeks time.

We've played 5 games against Championship sides so far this season. Won 0, Drawn 2, Lost 3... and we have 4 games in a row against top to middle ranking teams after a fairly 'easy' start except for Rangers away in the first game. We can only hope we raise our game in September!

[Drew]

Would that be Ross County who fired their manager after seeing enough in the first four league games last season? Just asking!

How rapid was there improvement under the new manager? Within four matches? The previous manager had been there for several seasons, so had been afforded every opportunity to get it right.

Just saying.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Drew