Cost Of Football - By Bbc

[Stuart Dickson]

Club gets NOTHING from additional food sales as it is a franchise.

Or from the sale of strips and merchandise. There's no incentive for the board to offer free admission to kids - especially since they are so desperate to get out that long term planning doesn't come into it. The sad thing is though Brian, it's killing the club - softly, admittedly - but it is killing the club none the less.

[dr rotund]

Indeed. However if you read my post again I was not referring to the size of the crowds, I was referring to the demographics within the stadium and the proportion of the crowd that are youngsters.

In the 70's and 80's when I was a kid I remember very well the large number of kids around my age that would stand or sit around the perimeter of the Love Street pitch. If you wanted to sit on the bench you had to be in the stadium more than 30 minutes before kick off. By kick off the number of kids around that front row could be three, four or even five deep all the way from Carters Corner right the way round to the fence. Before they closed off the back of the main stand it would even go right the way round the side of the Caledonian Road end as well.

These days, or the rare occasion that I do visit Greenhill Road it's very evident that most of the support these days are in their 40's or older. It's not a problem that is unique to St Mirren either, many clubs appear to have the same issues with a few notable exceptions where the clubs did actually maintain initiatives that kept entry for kids free, or at least very cheap, throughout large parts of the 90's - Motherwell and Kilmarnock are the two in particular that I am thinking about.

I'd love to see an official survey into the demographics of each clubs support these days and a comparison against what it used to be like in the 70's and the 80's but to me it seems very clear. The sport has lost at sizeable chunk of at least one generation of supporter.

I agree with letting in children under a particular age for free, these are the potential supporters of the future.

[Stuart Dickson]

Wasn't aware that the other 41 clubs still allow lift overs and that only St Mirren have barred the activity. Learn something new everyday. #StMirrenbad

We're on a St Mirren forum so yeah I'm criticising St Mirren but you're right, St Mirren aren't the only club in Scotland to have turned away at least one generation of supporters.

I'm a parent of two. My eldest son is now 22 years old. I took him to his first St Mirren match at Dens Park when he was 3 years old. Together we experienced many clubs where stewards would take him out of the queue and put him through the gate while I paid to get in. Together we've taken advantage of the many incentives that were offered by clubs all around Scotland to encourage parents to go to matches with their kids. Not being tied to watching St Mirren since the sacking of Tom Hendrie meant that we would go watch Motherwell matches where he'd get in for £1, and to matches at Rugby Park where for many years they were allowing under 14's in for free. At Love Street however not only was there no incentives, the club didn't even have a parent and child gate at the enclosure. I'd have to pay my young son in through his turnstyle and then go back and queue to get into the stadium myself while he waited on the other side and no matter how or who I complained to nothing was ever done.

Think also about how St Mirren treated the kids who got free tickets back in those days at Love Street. The kids weren't welcomed into the body of the St Mirren support, instead they were seated in the Caledonian Road Stand with the away fans, segregated from the rest of the support.

[bluto]

I agree with letting in children under a particular age for free, these are the potential supporters of the future.

To be fair, the club gives away thousands of tickets for school kids to get in free. As does extortionate Hibs, I believe...

[Stuart Dickson]

To be fair, the club gives away thousands of tickets for school kids to get in free. As does extortionate Hibs, I believe...

The club certainly gives away some free tickets but, unless it's simply a case of the tickets not being used, I really do doubt it's in the thousands.

I also have to say that in my personal experience with the club and other clubs when it comes to running a juvenile football team - St Mirren were very poor at offering packages for large groups going to matches as well. Indeed the only time we were offered an attractive deal to take a large group of kids to Greenhill Road was when they were looking to boost numbers for a Scotland Under 21 match a few years back. In comparison clubs like Sunderland, Newcastle, Bolton Wanderers, Wigan Athletic and even Manchester City were all far easier to deal with. In Scottish terms Dunfermline Athletic and Motherwell were by far the most accommodating, although I have to say that I found Bobby Jenks at Motherwell frustratingly difficult to deal with.

Oh and Hibs do give away a limited number of free tickets away to every home game but the number, as far as I am aware, is in the tens rather than in the thousands.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Stuart Dickson

[Sonny]

A friend who is a season ticket holder took a young lad to a game a few weeks ago. He went to the South Stand with the boy and although they would let the boy in they would not let my mate in although he had a season ticket as it was for the West Stand. He ended up paying again as he promised the boy's parents the 'parents and children non-swearing' stand.

So the chance of taking that young lad to another game are remote. A potential future supporter lost.

The Club/Police and their inflexible rules also contribute as do the stewards (they should just have let my mate through into the South Stand - it was not as if there were thousands trying to do this).

And while I am at it this nonsense of segregating the West Stand most weeks is a joke. Now catering and toilet facilities are halved meaning large queues for the Home support when the Away support can be only a handful of people. Nothing like making the matchday experience worse every season that goes by and that is off the park!

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

A friend who is a season ticket holder took a young lad to a game a few weeks ago. He went to the South Stand with the boy and although they would let the boy in they would not let my mate in although he had a season ticket as it was for the West Stand. He ended up paying again as he promised the boy's parents the 'parents and children non-swearing' stand.

So the chance of taking that young lad to another game are remote. A potential future supporter lost.

The Club/Police and their inflexible rules also contribute as do the stewards (they should just have let my mate through into the South Stand - it was not as if there were thousands trying to do this).

And while I am at it this nonsense of segregating the West Stand most weeks is a joke. Now catering and toilet facilities are halved meaning large queues for the Home support when the Away support can be only a handful of people. Nothing like making the matchday experience worse every season that goes by and that is off the park!

I'm sure if you're friend was to contact the club they would permit him to go into the family stand with a child. ( surly )

[Sonny]

The ticket reader would not accept his card and the stewards refused entry. Just one more annoying contribution that dissuades people from just turning up at a game with children or friends. I can see the point if a game is a potential sell-out but not for most matches this season. Surely a wee bit of common sense and initiative is required.

Before police paranoia a Season ticket got you into Love St and you could go anywhere except the Main Stand. Unless a game has a potential for a large crowd your Home ticket should allow access to the East, South or West Stands. The ticket reader should recognise that you are not in your 'normal' stand and count accordingly. You then of course have to sit in an unreserved seat. Not a problem for 90% home games.

[pozbaird]

The ticket reader would not accept his card and the stewards refused entry. Just one more annoying contribution that dissuades people from just turning up at a game with children or friends. I can see the point if a game is a potential sell-out but not for most matches this season. Surely a wee bit of common sense and initiative is required.

Before police paranoia a Season ticket got you into Love St and you could go anywhere except the Main Stand. Unless a game has a potential for a large crowd your Home ticket should allow access to the East, South or West Stands. The ticket reader should recognise that you are not in your 'normal' stand and count accordingly. You then of course have to sit in an unreserved seat. Not a problem for 90% home games.

The danger with this post of course, is that someone picks it up and turns it into a sermon about how better it would be if stadiums were simply completely unsegregated for home and away fans, allowing us all to sit side-by-side in peace and harmony, sharing cheery banter about that pesky Pope in Rome for example. Or maybe Jim Goodwin's parentage, country of birth... It would be top quality craic. The kids would love it and the adults would simply laugh cheerily and say 'Oh you guys... You crack me up, you cheeky Sevconian scamps.'

Whew... I think I got in just in time to stop him.

Edited October 16, 2015 by pozbaird

[Sonny]

Sorry, I should have clarified I was referring to season tickets giving access to all but the Away end for games that have little or no chance of being a sell-out. Away supporters would still be allocated the Away stand.

[bluto]

To be fair, the club gives away thousands of tickets for school kids to get in free. As does extortionate Hibs, I believe...

The club certainly gives away some free tickets but, unless it's simply a case of the tickets not being used, I really do doubt it's in the thousands.

.....

Oh and Hibs do give away a limited number of free tickets away to every home game but the number, as far as I am aware, is in the tens rather than in the thousands.

I know, I know.... I should never believe that BBC shite. Thanks for the correction.

"Hibernian and St Mirren gave away 5,000 and 3,000 tickets respectively last season in their drive to work with local schools, clubs and communities to engage supporters."

Eta: full text of the bbc bollox, below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34506759

Edited October 16, 2015 by bluto

[nedflanders123]

The German example is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. German tickets are cheap because of their massive (comparative) TV deals. Yes the product is fantastic and yes tickets are cheaper than ours but it's the TV deals that are allowing their clubs to let fans if for a lot less. The EPL could do likewise but choose not to. At the end of the day clubs charge as much as they can get away with and as has been stated earlier in the thread anyone who does pay the prices can't really complain. You choose to pay it or stay away.

I see German fans are protesting at Arsenal charging £64 to watch the Emirates. That is scandalous. Time fans voted with their feet, particularly in England where the TV contract is worth billions.

[nedflanders123]

We really aren't producing much in the way of talent at all and that shows right throughout our game right now. Even in Scotland we've got top clubs who would rather pay for accommodation and wages for English players who couldn't get a game for ANY of the 92 senior football clubs down there and they'll field them in their squads ahead of Scottish lads that have come through their own academies. It's a marker of our game that clubs like Inverness, Motherwell, St Mirren and Ross County would choose to sign players so far down the pecking order in England ahead of our own. Even now we see Rangers devoting a huge amount of time and effort into their chase of what appears to be a crocked 35 year old English midfielder who a few years ago was playing at Hereford United. Is there really nothing at Murray Park that could be developed, particularly in a season where Rangers appear to be cruising to the league title?

Our national sport has become pretty rotten to the core and it's a shame because at grassroots level the SYFA has actually done a great deal to improve the framework and standards in that area. But the drive by senior clubs to grasp and steal as much of the resources that they can has left our game in an horrific state.

The thing is Stuart, the EPL are also stagnating when it comes to talent. Most EPL clubs are buying from abroad rather than investing in youth mainly to a) compete to get into and stay in the Champions League or stay in the EPL. The national team are better than us simply because they have a much larger pool of players but are they as good as those before Sky and BT pumped their billion in allowing clubs to buy 'ready made' players from abroad? Don't be fooled by England winning all their games as they had the easiest group. Like us, when they come up against real class they continually fail. So, while England have far more English born talent than us, they are no longer producing and/or offering the same level of opportunity that was there before TV money became the driving force. The priority is now ready made experienced players that permeate the top league for instant success at the expense of rearing your own. Scotland has always produced talent but with smaller squads, less money and our two top clubs continuing to buy from abroad, talented kids have less chance of making it plus can it be considered a career anymore when clubs only offer small contracts?

[Stuart Dickson]

I know, I know.... I should never believe that BBC shite. Thanks for the correction.

"Hibernian and St Mirren gave away 5,000 and 3,000 tickets respectively last season in their drive to work with local schools, clubs and communities to engage supporters."

Eta: full text of the bbc bollox, below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34506759

Well I can't comment on St Mirren beyond the fact that if they really did give away 3,000 free tickets last season you'd have to wonder why so few turned up. The Hibs figure is a load of shite though. It includes the "free" tickets that are given to Hibs Kids Members who pay £10 for "free" tickets to 5 matches.

[Drew]

A friend who is a season ticket holder took a young lad to a game a few weeks ago. He went to the South Stand with the boy and although they would let the boy in they would not let my mate in although he had a season ticket as it was for the West Stand. He ended up paying again as he promised the boy's parents the 'parents and children non-swearing' stand.

So the chance of taking that young lad to another game are remote. A potential future supporter lost.

The Club/Police and their inflexible rules also contribute as do the stewards (they should just have let my mate through into the South Stand - it was not as if there were thousands trying to do this).

And while I am at it this nonsense of segregating the West Stand most weeks is a joke. Now catering and toilet facilities are halved meaning large queues for the Home support when the Away support can be only a handful of people. Nothing like making the matchday experience worse every season that goes by and that is off the park!

Inconsistency here.

I had cause to use a friend's ST recently, and rather than sit on my tod in the designated stand, a mate suggested I approach a senior steward and ask to be permitted entry to the stand they (and I) usually sit in. It was no trouble, and he kindly obliged without any fuss.

I agree on the seating issue - ST should simply permit entry to the stadium - though suspect we might be in the minority. If they reverted back to this arrangement, I would be much more likely to buy a ST again.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Drew

[Sonny]

Glad some common sense was used in your case Drew. I can only recount what my mate told me that the steward in question refused him entry.

I would like to still have 'my' reserved seat which I can use for sellout games or use most weeks but would like the flexibility of being able to sit where I want - ie on an unreserved seat in other parts of the ground - for run of the mill games. I'll maybe try and get into the main stand in the next few weeks and see if a steward lets me!

[Stuart Dickson]

The thing is Stuart, the EPL are also stagnating when it comes to talent. Most EPL clubs are buying from abroad rather than investing in youth mainly to a) compete to get into and stay in the Champions League or stay in the EPL. The national team are better than us simply because they have a much larger pool of players but are they as good as those before Sky and BT pumped their billion in allowing clubs to buy 'ready made' players from abroad? Don't be fooled by England winning all their games as they had the easiest group. Like us, when they come up against real class they continually fail. So, while England have far more English born talent than us, they are no longer producing and/or offering the same level of opportunity that was there before TV money became the driving force. The priority is now ready made experienced players that permeate the top league for instant success at the expense of rearing your own. Scotland has always produced talent but with smaller squads, less money and our two top clubs continuing to buy from abroad, talented kids have less chance of making it plus can it be considered a career anymore when clubs only offer small contracts?

What exactly is your point? I'm not advocating the English Youth Development set up either - all I was doing was pointing out that our league clubs, which charge rip off prices to watch pub team players, are competing year on year with clubs like Forest Green, Hereford United, and Gateshead to sign English journeymen well down on the English talent list and are playing them ahead of the Scottish boys that you think are "talent" who would head to England if we didn't pay them the high level of wages that they currently are given.

[Stuart Dickson]

Glad some common sense was used in your case Drew. I can only recount what my mate told me that the steward in question refused him entry.

I would like to still have 'my' reserved seat which I can use for sellout games or use most weeks but would like the flexibility of being able to sit where I want - ie on an unreserved seat in other parts of the ground - for run of the mill games. I'll maybe try and get into the main stand in the next few weeks and see if a steward lets me!

So you want to reserve a seat for yourself yet you want to be able to choose another seat to sit on if you wish? You do realise that is f**king ridiculous don't you? It would mean that to accommodate everyone on the same terms the capacity of the stadium would have to be halved.

Drew is right - it's time to ditch reserved seating for everyone. If you want a specific seat every game get out to the match nice and early.

[Ayrshire Saints]

I see German fans are protesting at Arsenal charging £64 to watch the Emirates. That is scandalous. Time fans voted with their feet, particularly in England where the TV contract is worth billions.

I really wonder how anyone could afford to watch an EPL team on a home and away basis. Perhaps that concept no longer exists down there.

[Stuart Dickson]

I really wonder how anyone could afford to watch an EPL team on a home and away basis. Perhaps that concept no longer exists down there.

It does and away quotas usually sell out at most of the bigger clubs. At Sunderland for example they employ a points based system similar to the one the Scotland Travel Club has and to get a ticket for the away end at matches you generally have to be in one of the top two groups.

I can understand why English clubs charge so much. It's because despite the cost their stadiums are still, in the main, packed out most weeks and so it should be when the list of players playing for clubs in the EPL read like a who's who of World Football. However there is still value to be found. At Newcastle for example an adult and a juvenile can both be admitted to a game in the Family Section against the likes of Aston Villa or Norwich City for the same price as it costs for one adult to go watch St Mirren at home to Alloa - and trust me not only is the standard of player much better, so is the view of the match.

[nedflanders123]

What exactly is your point? I'm not advocating the English Youth Development set up either - all I was doing was pointing out that our league clubs, which charge rip off prices to watch pub team players, are competing year on year with clubs like Forest Green, Hereford United, and Gateshead to sign English journeymen well down on the English talent list and are playing them ahead of the Scottish boys that you think are "talent" who would head to England if we didn't pay them the high level of wages that they currently are given.

You know what, it is pointless having any reasoned discussion with you. My point was pretty clear in that it related to the issue of talent. If you cannot understand what I wrorpte then leave things there.

[Stuart Dickson]

The situation in Scotland is unlikely to change re cost of attending. The massive gap in finances between England and Scotland means we have to pay a certain amount in wages to retain any talent in this country otherwise they would go down south. As we are not in the same league in TV or sponsorship money our clubs have to charge high for entry fees,season tickets, football merchandise such as tops etc and food and drink. Sadly, they are losing support (old and potentially new) each season.

You said this. I pointed out that if any club in England is interested in any of our players they would pack their bags and head off like a shot. I subsequently went on to show the status of the players you reckon were our "talent" by showing that clubs in the top flight in Scotland would rather sign players from clubs like Gateshead, Forest Green, Hereford United and Notts County than play products of our Academys in Scotland. You then came back and claimed that home grown talent in England has stagnated, a point I wouldn't argue with, and a point that puts even more into focus the state of "talent" in the Scottish game when you consider that clubs like Motherwell, Ross County, Inverness and St Mirren would rather compete with non league clubs in England for players who, if signed, go straight into the first team squad whilst Scottish academy players are released.

As well as your unfathomable argument in this thread about talent you've also failed to grasp the fact that I wasn't talking about the size of the gate at St Mirren matches when I referred to the proportion of kids attending matches.

Perhaps if you read the posts being made and kept to the same line of argument instead of trying desperately to land any sort of punch at all you might find the debate a bit more enjoyable.

[Tommy]

A friend who is a season ticket holder took a young lad to a game a few weeks ago. He went to the South Stand with the boy and although they would let the boy in they would not let my mate in although he had a season ticket as it was for the West Stand. He ended up paying again as he promised the boy's parents the 'parents and children non-swearing' stand.

So the chance of taking that young lad to another game are remote. A potential future supporter lost.

The Club/Police and their inflexible rules also contribute as do the stewards (they should just have let my mate through into the South Stand - it was not as if there were thousands trying to do this).

And while I am at it this nonsense of segregating the West Stand most weeks is a joke. Now catering and toilet facilities are halved meaning large queues for the Home support when the Away support can be only a handful of people. Nothing like making the matchday experience worse every season that goes by and that is off the park!

At the 1st home league game V Dumbarton, my mate who does not have a season ticket had to go into the north stand after being told at the ticket office the west stand was full. (They were plenty of empty seats around me in W1) So at half time I ask a gentleman with a saint jacket on if I could move to the south stand. He got a hold of a senior steward who then phoned the police office in the main stand to ask for permission. After a wee wait permission was granted so I was escorted out the back of the west stand around the corner to the south stand and got in through a exit door. Don't know why I could not just walk the 10 yards by the corner flag The gentleman who I spoke to first said it is all to do with H&S so they need to know how many people are in each stand. Seem OTT to me but if I am ever asking for help again I would always ask a senior steward since I reckon they have more common sense.

[nedflanders123]

You said this. I pointed out that if any club in England is interested in any of our players they would pack their bags and head off like a shot. I subsequently went on to show the status of the players you reckon were our "talent" by showing that clubs in the top flight in Scotland would rather sign players from clubs like Gateshead, Forest Green, Hereford United and Notts County than play products of our Academys in Scotland. You then came back and claimed that home grown talent in England has stagnated, a point I wouldn't argue with, and a point that puts even more into focus the state of "talent" in the Scottish game when you consider that clubs like Motherwell, Ross County, Inverness and St Mirren would rather compete with non league clubs in England for players who, if signed, go straight into the first team squad whilst Scottish academy players are released.

As well as your unfathomable argument in this thread about talent you've also failed to grasp the fact that I wasn't talking about the size of the gate at St Mirren matches when I referred to the proportion of kids attending matches.

Perhaps if you read the posts being made and kept to the same line of argument instead of trying desperately to land any sort of punch at all you might find the debate a bit more enjoyable.

You really are obnoxious and can see why you are loathed by many on this forum. As a non fan and all things St Mirren hater I see no reason why you post here. Consider another ignoring your anti Saints and political blustering.

[Sonny]

So you want to reserve a seat for yourself yet you want to be able to choose another seat to sit on if you wish? You do realise that is f**king ridiculous don't you? It would mean that to accommodate everyone on the same terms the capacity of the stadium would have to be halved.

Drew is right - it's time to ditch reserved seating for everyone. If you want a specific seat every game get out to the match nice and early.

Bollocks. You have not been following or understanding the comments or do not have enough common sense to work it out. You can choose which.

I am referring to games (the vast majority) of which the stadium is less than half full (in only 3 Home games this season has there been more than 3k fans in an 8k stadium). So if my mate is in the main stand or I am taking a child then I can go to the other stands using my season ticket and sit in an unreserved seat. The ticket system knows at any point how many seats have been sold in every stand and how many empty seats there are. If the police or club want to stop entry then they can do so easily and automatically. If empty seats were suddenly filling up for any special wierd reason then I would expect to only have entry to the West stand.

For the Dumbarton game (opening game of the season) I did not sit in my season ticket seat anyway as I took a relative and all the seats around me are season ticket seats so we sat elsewhere in the West stand. Others around me do the same if they bring along a non-regular supporter. For the game against the **** I will be in my usual seat as I would not want to deprive a fellow Buddie of a seat but I bet there are still loads of empty seats for the Home fans.