FTOF Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 As the old saying go's "you need to speculate to accumulate".... Our bod are doing neither... What they are doing is selling off the assets (our best players) and using that money to patch up holes & pay for mistakes..... What happens when, at the end of this season (when) we have no assets left to sell...... The only way is down, with no decent assets (players) to bring us (the business) back out its hole!! The board have done this aplenty. They've paid over inflated wages to certain players and managers . We even paid a transfer fee. Unfortunately all the money was "speculated" on utter shite and we've paid a huge financial cost in paying off these costly mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsuMirren Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Right now (excluding directors loans) have zero as a float and budget to break even. Any fan ownership bid would need to backing of some wealthy individuals or businesses willing to provide short term cash flow solutions until we accumulate some sort of "float". The model of SMISA & GLS doesn't work IMO. At Ebbsfleet, there was a constant need for extra cash and it usually involved either squeezing yet more good will from the members or a loan from Phil. You can argue in our case that some of the loans did cover mistakes, I'd love to know how many plugged genuine gaps. We don't throw money at things like Ebbsfleet were doing, but do see more fluctuations in crowds and associated cash flow. I suppose the model could work for buying the club, but as with any other fan model we've seen it'll need everyone who joins to expect to contribute more. Either that or we cut our cloth and see where that takes us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Right now (excluding directors loans) have zero as a float and budget to break even. Any fan ownership bid would need to backing of some wealthy individuals or businesses willing to provide short term cash flow solutions until we accumulate some sort of "float". The model of SMISA & GLS doesn't work IMO. Well it does, IF you give the loss making business it's correct value and not the kind of silly one being held out for by Douglas Street. The clubs been more or less loss making for the entire period that the board has been in control of the club. From memory I think the biggest profit in one year was around £70,000 and the current losses are the worst shown throughout the entire period. Who the hell in their right mind would pay £1m+ for 51% of a business that never makes a profit. Of course there are ways the club COULD turn a profit. Lowering the wage to turnover ratio would be the most obvious way. Part time football would certainly allow the club to generate it's own cash float. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thought I should also point out that Stewart Gilmour actually states in his statement that St Mirren made a cash profit. In has statement on page 3 he says that the club made a trading loss of £261k however this was after allowing £300k+ for depreciation. And also of interest might be the KPI's as stated by the board. It looks to me like they failed in every single measure that they set. Yet IBOS thinks that no-one should question the boards management of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thought I should also point out that Stewart Gilmour actually states in his statement that St Mirren made a cash profit. In has statement on page 3 he says that the club made a trading loss of £261k however this was after allowing £300k+ for depreciation. Aye, can someone expand on this point for the financial numpties like me? On paper we are saying the stadium is worth 300k less than last season. This is only for the benefit of the accounts, the stadium is actually worth bugger all. Cash In - Cash Out, we made a small profit? Does this include the loan from the board? I think it was mentioned that loan was paid back shortly after being taken. We were due our end of season prize for being relegated. I don't have time to go through it all just now, has anyone noticed if we have been paid for McLean and McGinn yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 The fundamental problem with analysing company accounts (whether St Mirren's or any other limited company / plc) is that we are reviewing history when we should really be interested in the situation as at the present day. St Mirren's financial results for the year to May are based on the club's presence in the Premiership. Now that we are dumped into the Championship for the next 12 months and will be there (or worse) for another 12 months at least I fear that the club's "zero debt" status is likely to be blown out of the sea. Worrying times ahead IMO. Compounded by the BoD still not having grown the cahones to fire Ian Murray whose record in charge makes many of us hanker back to the glorious days of Tommy Craig's era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 The fundamental problem with analysing company accounts (whether St Mirren's or any other limited company / plc) is that we are reviewing history when we should really be interested in the situation as at the present day. St Mirren's financial results for the year to May are based on the club's presence in the Premiership. Now that we are dumped into the Championship for the next 12 months and will be there (or worse) for another 12 months at least I fear that the club's "zero debt" status is likely to be blown out of the sea. Worrying times ahead IMO. Compounded by the BoD still not having grown the cahones to fire Ian Murray whose record in charge makes many of us hanker back to the glorious days of Tommy Craig's era. the fundamental problem is that we are still spending way too much momey on players. money we can clearly not afford. on top of that we have no cash reserve for a rainy day. only after considering those sobering facts can we add reduced income, reduced crowds due to our form. despite all of this we have fans screaming for us to spend even more money that we dont have sacking a manager who has barely warmed his seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thought I should also point out that Stewart Gilmour actually states in his statement that St Mirren made a cash profit. In has statement on page 3 he says that the club made a trading loss of £261k however this was after allowing £300k+ for depreciation. And also of interest might be the KPI's as stated by the board. It looks to me like they failed in every single measure that they set. Yet IBOS thinks that no-one should question the boards management of the club. we shoud. do two things. 1) question the board of our club. 2) ignore any posts from you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint in exile Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thought I should also point out that Stewart Gilmour actually states in his statement that St Mirren made a cash profit. In has statement on page 3 he says that the club made a trading loss of £261k however this was after allowing £300k+ for depreciation. And also of interest might be the KPI's as stated by the board. It looks to me like they failed in every single measure that they set. Yet IBOS thinks that no-one should question the boards management of the club. FFS - another clown who can't f#cking read. SG does NOT say the club made a cash profit, he says it effectively broke even on a cash basis. Yet another Dicko lie found out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Aye, can someone expand on this point for the financial numpties like me? On paper we are saying the stadium is worth 300k less than last season. This is only for the benefit of the accounts, the stadium is actually worth bugger all. Cash In - Cash Out, we made a small profit? Does this include the loan from the board? I think it was mentioned that loan was paid back shortly after being taken. We were due our end of season prize for being relegated. I don't have time to go through it all just now, has anyone noticed if we have been paid for McLean and McGinn yet? You've got it pretty much right. Think about it in terms of owning a car. You buy a brand new car and you drive it down the street. It's no longer worth what you paid for it. A year later the value has depreciated further. Now if this was an asset of your business this would count as a loss on your balance sheet each year and it can be written off against any tax liability that you have. At St Mirren this could be in terms of the value of the football stadium - football clubs were allowed by the UK Government after the Taylor Report to count the value of the expense of improvements done in their football stadium within their assets, this was to depreciate by a certain amount every year for the lifespan of the build which was given a value - IIRC 25 years. Other depreciating assets would be things like company cars, the value of club owned equipment etc. Gilmour in his statement says that the club "broke even on a cash basis" after the effects of £300k+ of depreciation is factored into the £261k loss. That would tally with exactly how the board have run the club over the lifetime of their management of the business - basically to break even or to make a fairly nominal profit. So it's not quite the calamitous financial situation that some on this thread would have us believe. A loan wouldn't count as profit as even though it is cash in, it increases the level of debt. What is more significant, as has been discussed by others, is that the loan was needed in the first place to cover cash flow problems. I seem to remember it being reported previously that one of the cash flow problems in recent years that many clubs faced had been caused by the SPFL delaying payments to member clubs. It could also be the case that the loan was used to pay off the contracts of Tommy Craig or of any number of the players that left the club under contract in January last year. I'm sure the board will have been as prudent as usual and set the clubs budget this season to bring it in around break even again this year too. Much of St Mirren's biggest variable income - gate revenue - is paid in up front in June, July and August through season ticket holders. Other factors such as advertising revenue, sponsorship etc are paid up front for the season too. In the future I'd say going part time would make a great deal of sense financially especially if the on field decline continues and the club continue to struggle to bring in additional revenue from non match day activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WirralSaint Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Thought I should also point out that Stewart Gilmour actually states in his statement that St Mirren made a cash profit. In has statement on page 3 he says that the club made a trading loss of £261k however this was after allowing £300k+ for depreciation. And also of interest might be the KPI's as stated by the board. It looks to me like they failed in every single measure that they set. Yet IBOS thinks that no-one should question the boards management of the club. Ohhh man it's got so bad I've got to agree with a Dickson comment. KPI's statement sat out like a bloody big flashy honking beacon howling look at us, look, look we've managed to do the exact opposite of these. Target: Potential for Promotion back to SPL KPI: Play off spot contention Achieved: Team performance more stinking than a club captain's big shite in a pumpkin I'm surprised they had the brass neck to put them in, it reminded me of SEVCO fantasy announcements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Wouldn't let GS run a bath. Ask him about his American investments. You are showing your own ignorance there. GS built up a very successful business in Scotland. Part of being in business is a willingness to take risks. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I don't know anything about his investments in the States, but if he tried something new and failed then he is in very good company. Can I ask what exactly you have achieved in business and when you will be coming forward with Lord LookAtMe to lead St Mirren back to the land of milk and honey? Or do you just sit on the sidelines and snipe? Easier that way, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 What is "Directors Current Accounts"? That's a rather unusual looking creditor with rather rounded values of £100k for 2014 and £245k for 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 What is "Directors Current Accounts"? That's a rather unusual looking creditor with rather rounded values of £100k for 2014 and £245k for 2015. Interest free loans. £100k in 2014, £145k in 2015 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 You've got it pretty much right. Think about it in terms of owning a car. You buy a brand new car and you drive it down the street. It's no longer worth what you paid for it. A year later the value has depreciated further. Now if this was an asset of your business this would count as a loss on your balance sheet each year and it can be written off against any tax liability that you have. At St Mirren this could be in terms of the value of the football stadium - football clubs were allowed by the UK Government after the Taylor Report to count the value of the expense of improvements done in their football stadium within their assets, this was to depreciate by a certain amount every year for the lifespan of the build which was given a value - IIRC 25 years. Other depreciating assets would be things like company cars, the value of club owned equipment etc. Gilmour in his statement says that the club "broke even on a cash basis" after the effects of £300k+ of depreciation is factored into the £261k loss. That would tally with exactly how the board have run the club over the lifetime of their management of the business - basically to break even or to make a fairly nominal profit. So it's not quite the calamitous financial situation that some on this thread would have us believe. A loan wouldn't count as profit as even though it is cash in, it increases the level of debt. What is more significant, as has been discussed by others, is that the loan was needed in the first place to cover cash flow problems. I seem to remember it being reported previously that one of the cash flow problems in recent years that many clubs faced had been caused by the SPFL delaying payments to member clubs. It could also be the case that the loan was used to pay off the contracts of Tommy Craig or of any number of the players that left the club under contract in January last year. I'm sure the board will have been as prudent as usual and set the clubs budget this season to bring it in around break even again this year too. Much of St Mirren's biggest variable income - gate revenue - is paid in up front in June, July and August through season ticket holders. Other factors such as advertising revenue, sponsorship etc are paid up front for the season too. In the future I'd say going part time would make a great deal of sense financially especially if the on field decline continues and the club continue to struggle to bring in additional revenue from non match day activities. Most Clubs , including the majority in the Premiership should be Part Time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Most Clubs , including the majority in the Premiership should be Part Time. If we keep Murray then it won't be too long till we're part time. Perhaps you should campaign for him to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Most Clubs , including the majority in the Premiership should be Part Time. Going part time isn't a panacea. From what I gather we are effectively a part time club anyway if we are to believe that turning up at Ralston for a couple of hours a week for a couple of hours equates to full time. Doesn't sound like it to me. Going part time, whatever that means, you save money how exactly? Making back room staff redundant? That has happened already to some extent. Renegotiating players contracts? That kind of thing goes on continually in any walk of life. I think the truth is that the current board is doing pretty well in keeping things tight but they have undone a lot of the good with the money 'wasted' in getting rid of managers and players earning pretty big money who just weren't performing. I firmly believe that the dividing line between an acceptable level of success or failure is pretty thin. If the managerial farce had been sorted out earlier last season and if we had got a rub of the green in just a couple more games we could still be in the Premiership. This season can still be salvaged but I wish I was confident that the right decisions will be made in the next week or two. Some will say we can't afford not to get rid of Murray. Do we have the cash to pay up his contract? It doesn't look like it from the accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Going part time isn't a panacea. From what I gather we are effectively a part time club anyway if we are to believe that turning up at Ralston for a couple of hours a week for a couple of hours equates to full time. Doesn't sound like it to me. Going part time, whatever that means, you save money how exactly? Making back room staff redundant? That has happened already to some extent. Renegotiating players contracts? That kind of thing goes on continually in any walk of life. I think the truth is that the current board is doing pretty well in keeping things tight but they have undone a lot of the good with the money 'wasted' in getting rid of managers and players earning pretty big money who just weren't performing. I firmly believe that the dividing line between an acceptable level of success or failure is pretty thin. If the managerial farce had been sorted out earlier last season and if we had got a rub of the green in just a couple more games we could still be in the Premiership. This season can still be salvaged but I wish I was confident that the right decisions will be made in the next week or two. Some will say we can't afford not to get rid of Murray. Do we have the cash to pay up his contract? It doesn't look like it from the accounts.FFS Rick. In our case, we should pay players bus fares only and that's being generous . They should have jobs outside football They do not deserve rewards for being shite at the beautiful game. The majority of Clubs should be bus fares only. Edited December 2, 2015 by shull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 FFS - another clown who can't f#cking read. SG does NOT say the club made a cash profit, he says it effectively broke even on a cash basis. Yet another Dicko lie found out. His ignorance covers many areas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickMcD Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 FFS Rick. In our case, we should pay players bus fares only and that's being generous . They should have jobs outside football They do not deserve rewards for being shite at the beautiful game. The majority of Clubs should be bus fares only. FFS Shull. Come on over here and watch Bangor YM. They don't even get bus fares. Scotland can support a full time professional league and St.Mirren could be part of it. We badly need an infusion of cash and I don't believe it has to be megabucks. Your way St.Mirren would slip down the leagues and into oblivion. You've said often enough in the past that you will support St.Mirren no matter what happens but most of us have higher hopes for our club rather than let them become another nonentity glorified junior team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Thought I should also point out that Stewart Gilmour actually states in his statement that St Mirren made a cash profit. In has statement on page 3 he says that the club made a trading loss of £261k however this was after allowing £300k+ for depreciation. And also of interest might be the KPI's as stated by the board. It looks to me like they failed in every single measure that they set. Yet IBOS thinks that no-one should question the boards management of the club. Never thought inwould be quoting a Dicko post but this is a brief accurate summary of how the fantastic board are doing? Hello people it is UWS that run the club now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 What makes me laugh is the calls by many posters, some of them even forum owners for a new "Sugar Daddy" type owner to throw money into the club... Well that isnt going to happen anytime soon, unless of course you will be happy seeing the said investor stripping oit anything they can sell, pawn or lease back before going into along tortous administration/liquidation process. FFS do you even think things through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 FFS Shull. Come on over here and watch Bangor YM. They don't even get bus fares. Scotland can support a full time professional league and St.Mirren could be part of it. We badly need an infusion of cash and I don't believe it has to be megabucks. Your way St.Mirren would slip down the leagues and into oblivion. You've said often enough in the past that you will support St.Mirren no matter what happens but most of us have higher hopes for our club rather than let them become another nonentity glorified junior team.If every other Team was part time like us, there would be no difference. Just the same shite Jessie players getting the money they deserve. They would have full time jobs outwith the Sport they cannae master. Never in a million years should we be full time on a hardcore support of around 2000 fans, unless the players accept about 50 quid a week. 66% of turnover on wages is suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Rick Infusion of cash equals debt. That is daft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 And finally, we are slipping down the Leagues and we are presently a Full Time Professional Football Club. Albeit a shite one with a shite Manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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