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Hillsborough Disaster Verdict


shull

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That's a very interesting, and eerie, video in the context of this discussion and shows how easy it would have been for everyone to head to that tunnel since the other tunnels are not visible from the gate. It also shows how the design of the stadium contributed to the disaster. Although, it is easy to look at that part of the stadium in hindsight and say it was badly designed but, back then, lots of places were "badly" designed.

I believe that the unlawful killing verdict is correct but for some people to try and lay all the blame at the feet of one person is wrong. As I have said, it was the result of a series of decisions and events. If there are prosecutions resulting from the verdict then they should include (for starters):-

1. If there was no safety certificate (as some have said), the person(s) at the FA who awarded the tie to Hillsborough.

2. If there was no safety certificate (as some have said), the board of Sheffield Wednesday for accepting the tie.

3. If there was no safety certificate (as some have said), the person and/or local council who denied the safety certificate, if they never informed the relevant football/police authorities of the fact after the tie was awarded.

4. If there was a safety certificate, the person who awarded the certificate (if they awarded it incorrectly, depending on the safety guidelines at the time).

I think a lot of people are looking for a scapegoat here and the obvious one is the match commander.

As I have said, anyone who was involved in the lies and cover up afterwards should be punished but that is a totally separate matter to holding a person or persons responsible for the deaths, and the unlawful killing verdict does not necessarily mean that anyone should be.

For a change, I agree with your entire post.

On top of all that, there is also the issue around we had fences around terracing in those days. Without the fences, the disaster wouldn't have happened.

The fences were there because of the anti social behaviour of a minority of football supporters, generally under the influence of alcohol.

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Yes there were three tunnels. However the impact of opening exit Gate C led straight towards the central tunnel. Central tunnel to pens 3 & 4 should have been closed before Gate C was opened.

The natural movement of a crowd entering gate C was directly towards the central tunnel.

Many of these fans would have been attending Hillsborough for the first time and would not have been aware of the right and left pens. You can see how difficult it would have been for fans to know how to get to pens 1&2 and especially pens 6&7 from gate C.

Answer this honestly. Which tunnel would you have most likely ended up in entering that stadium either through the turnstyles or Gate C.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0001.html

I agree that the most natural choice is the centre tunnel and clearly it should have been closed off but you still have to ask why, if the fans did in no way contribute to the deaths, were they not able, or simply didn't, turn around and come back out of that tunnel when it was clear the pen was full.

The BBC Documentary I keep going on about has an interview with Stephanie Jones. She is pictured entering the stadium at 2.53pm though the open gate. She says she walked through the walkway at normal pace. She says she didn't look up, she just followed others down the tunnel. She claims when she gets through the tunnel into the pen there is a surge and she's thrust down the stairs. She says her brothers girlfriend loses her shoe in the surge, she falls, and is then picked up. Stephenie says that was the last moment she saw her alive. She says she was turned around in the crush and somehow she found herself at the front of the pen. She then says someone opened the gate, and pulled her out. She says she reckons she was the first one out of that gate to safety on the pitch.

The documentary shows BBC Match of the Day footage with John Motson commenting live at that time. Motson says the pen appears to be full yet there's loads of space in the side pen. The camera pans, and you can see it's very sparsely accommodated. You can see the crowd surging forward in police CCTV pictures, and you can see Stephanie Jones photographed trackside looking dazed. The questions for me has to be why did Stephanie Jones and others not back out of the pen when they saw it was full? If he account is correct it sounds like it wasn't when she entered, but that soon after there was a surge, why did the crowd surge? Were there fans rushing to get in? It's clear there was pushing, and if there was pushing why has that not been included as a contributory factor to these deaths?

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That's a very interesting, and eerie, video in the context of this discussion and shows how easy it would have been for everyone to head to that tunnel since the other tunnels are not visible from the gate. It also shows how the design of the stadium contributed to the disaster. Although, it is easy to look at that part of the stadium in hindsight and say it was badly designed but, back then, lots of places were "badly" designed.

I believe that the unlawful killing verdict is correct but for some people to try and lay all the blame at the feet of one person is wrong. As I have said, it was the result of a series of decisions and events. If there are prosecutions resulting from the verdict then they should include (for starters):-

1. If there was no safety certificate (as some have said), the person(s) at the FA who awarded the tie to Hillsborough.

2. If there was no safety certificate (as some have said), the board of Sheffield Wednesday for accepting the tie.

3. If there was no safety certificate (as some have said), the person and/or local council who denied the safety certificate, if they never informed the relevant football/police authorities of the fact after the tie was awarded.

4. If there was a safety certificate, the person who awarded the certificate (if they awarded it incorrectly, depending on the safety guidelines at the time).

I think a lot of people are looking for a scapegoat here and the obvious one is the match commander.

As I have said, anyone who was involved in the lies and cover up afterwards should be punished but that is a totally separate matter to holding a person or persons responsible for the deaths, and the unlawful killing verdict does not necessarily mean that anyone should be.

There was also the fact that the ground had previous. A disaster was narrowly averted in 1981 at the Spurs v Wolves FA Cup Semi Final. Without wholesale improvements at that end of the ground, that stadium should never have been used for this tie.

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This from a thread started in 2009 gives some insight into what could easily have happened in football grounds around the country in the "good old days".............(© Gary Blues)

Motherwell v St Mirren, 1996/97

The official crowd was in excess of 26,000 that day. No doubt there was well over 30,000 packed into Fir Park that afternoon.

What makes that remarkable is the context - Motherwell's average home leage gate was only around 7,000 with the highest being 18,000 for the visit of Rangers. Scottish football gates were hitting an all time low in the late 70s and the eventual Scottish Cup Final that season between Rangers & Celtic attracted a crowd not much more than 50,000 when Scottish Cup Finals earleir that decade were still attracting crowds in excess of 100,000.

Motherwell have never seen such a big attendance since and obviously never will again. The St. Mirren support that day was possibly the largest travelling support ever to visit Fir Park.

Having been at this game I remember vividly the worry on trying to leave the ground, a few could easily have fallen and the outcome could have been a disaster.

Only referencing this to show how easily a tragedy could happen.

Yes I think the rather obvious lesson here is that had it not been Hillsborough it would have happened somewhere else.

The major responsibility in handling large events like this lies with the club, the security people (including the police) and those involved in the provision of immediate medical care if something goes wrong.

Yes there will always be fans who push and shove but anyone suggesting that fans caused this simply doesn't understand basic physics.

Those in the pens would have been pushed by the people directly behind them but they simply cannot be blamed.

Those directly behind them were being pushed by people behind them and this goes on and on in a chain which starts outside the ground. Those outside the ground who were pushing in could not possibly have known the catastrophic effect their actions were having on those perhaps 100 yards away in the pens. Once moving, those in the tunnels would have been carried along exactly as I was when we scored in the 1987 cup final. I was carried half way down the stand by those around me. Scared me shitless but I couldn't get behind one of the uprights to stop it.

To suggest somone could simply choose to change direction or walk against that swarm of bodies is plain f**king stupid.

Stuart can answer for himself as to why he is so intent on making judgments in the face of all evidence to the contrary, 2 years of evidential submissions, which he can't have seen, to a court process he wasn't involved in, for a match he was nowhere near.

This is the definition of trolling IMO.

Edited by oaksoft
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Guest TPAFKATS

No-one herded anyone. You're making that up in the face of all the evidence.

The criticism of the police at the inquest was that the tunnel in question was not closed and that there was no police presence in place to guide supporters into the other two tunnels. There was an open choice for anyone coming up that walkway. Three tunnels - all open. One led to an overcrowded pen. For some reason the majority of Liverpool fans chose that one ahead of the other two. For some reason when they got to the end of the tunnel they opted to continue into the pen, and didn't back out to space and to the more empty pens on either side.

I agree that the most natural choice is the centre tunnel and clearly it should have been closed off but you still have to ask why, if the fans did in no way contribute to the deaths, were they not able, or simply didn't, turn around and come back out of that tunnel when it was clear the pen was full.

The BBC Documentary I keep going on about has an interview with Stephanie Jones. She is pictured entering the stadium at 2.53pm though the open gate. She says she walked through the walkway at normal pace. She says she didn't look up, she just followed others down the tunnel. She claims when she gets through the tunnel into the pen there is a surge and she's thrust down the stairs. She says her brothers girlfriend loses her shoe in the surge, she falls, and is then picked up. Stephenie says that was the last moment she saw her alive. She says she was turned around in the crush and somehow she found herself at the front of the pen. She then says someone opened the gate, and pulled her out. She says she reckons she was the first one out of that gate to safety on the pitch.

The documentary shows BBC Match of the Day footage with John Motson commenting live at that time. Motson says the pen appears to be full yet there's loads of space in the side pen. The camera pans, and you can see it's very sparsely accommodated. You can see the crowd surging forward in police CCTV pictures, and you can see Stephanie Jones photographed trackside looking dazed. The questions for me has to be why did Stephanie Jones and others not back out of the pen when they saw it was full? If he account is correct it sounds like it wasn't when she entered, but that soon after there was a surge, why did the crowd surge? Were there fans rushing to get in? It's clear there was pushing, and if there was pushing why has that not been included as a contributory factor to these deaths?

Dear oh dear.

At best you have no understanding of how people react in crowds.

At worst you show a shocking lack of empathy bordering on psychopathic.

In the interest of forum debate I've avoided putting anyone on ignore, but really, life's too short.

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The bold bit is simply NOT TRUE Soctty. Read the question the jurers were asked regarding fan behaviour

The jury answered no. There was no question at the inquest asking if the fans behaviour contributed to the deaths of the 96.

Given that Lepping Lane is where the pushing was coming from and those beyond that point would have been unable to change their course I'd suggest it's irrelevant how they worded the question.

If they had worded as you suggested you'd have found another way of asking the question which you could then say hadn't proven the innocence of the fans.

That's classic troll behaviour.

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I wonder if S D would have the same opinion if it was his son or daughter that perished that day ?

I don't think he cares how any of these families feels at all.

He has deluded himself that he doesn't need to go through the 2 years of evidence line by line but can make conclusions on the basis of a few minutes of grainy footage on the BBC.

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I agree that the most natural choice is the centre tunnel and clearly it should have been closed off but you still have to ask why, if the fans did in no way contribute to the deaths, were they not able, or simply didn't, turn around and come back out of that tunnel when it was clear the pen was full.

"Excuse me,could all you nice chaps at the back turn round and go to another entrance.It's ever so busy in here"

Get real Dicko.

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Its worth remembering when we speak about 'the police' that it was the leadership on the day and subsequently, who were principally responsible.

Several rank and file officers report having statements doctored, and being subject to intimidation after the incident. There was a lack or direction on the day, and a high level cover up thereafter.

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Yes I think the rather obvious lesson here is that had it not been Hillsborough it would have happened somewhere else.

The major responsibility in handling large events like this lies with the club, the security people (including the police) and those involved in the provision of immediate medical care if something goes wrong.

Yes there will always be fans who push and shove but anyone suggesting that fans caused this simply doesn't understand basic physics.

Those in the pens would have been pushed by the people directly behind them but they simply cannot be blamed.

Those directly behind them were being pushed by people behind them and this goes on and on in a chain which starts outside the ground. Those outside the ground who were pushing in could not possibly have known the catastrophic effect their actions were having on those perhaps 100 yards away in the pens. Once moving, those in the tunnels would have been carried along exactly as I was when we scored in the 1987 cup final. I was carried half way down the stand by those around me. Scared me shitless but I couldn't get behind one of the uprights to stop it.

To suggest somone could simply choose to change direction or walk against that swarm of bodies is plain f**king stupid.

Stuart can answer for himself as to why he is so intent on making judgments in the face of all evidence to the contrary, 2 years of evidential submissions, which he can't have seen, to a court process he wasn't involved in, for a match he was nowhere near.

This is the definition of trolling IMO.

This article would suggest a Hillsborough was only a matter of time...............unfortunately.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/hillsborough-disaster--it-could-have-be-you--me-or-any-football-fan-101500140.html

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One thing I do agree with is that a 'Hillsborough' was a certainty to happen somewhere, sometime, in an English ground of that era. I vividly remember going to a Newcastle v Liverpool game back in those days. We entered a fenced-in pen through a dark narrow tunnel. Once inside, it became packed. Nowhere to move, no chance of going to the toilet. Nothing. It began raining. At the end of the match as the pens slowly cleared, we realised only our head and shoulders were wet from the rain. We were so tightly packed in we were dry from the shoulders down.

Absolutely frightening looking back on it from 2016.

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Back on for a moment just to say - apologies if anyone was offended by my language, but the guy is a c**t, and he's peddling , inhumane shite blaming fans for killing the 96.

If you think that's acceptable, I hope you never have the misfortune to be in a similar situation in a huge crowd. I've been in a tightly crowded area at a football match before. I would not expect that some worthless piece of shit would blame me for injuries or death sustained by anyone at the match.

Anyone who believes that is right and acceptable can accept the same tag I gave to the attention seeking prick who is still ploughing on regardelss of the feelings of anyone involved, or the findings of the inquest.

Best put both fatty and the Barrhead idiot on ignore.

Saves you wasting oxygen reading their posts.

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Linwood Buddie -Thats because the mentality of the police in policing football was about stopping hooliganism and not the safety of spectators. The police should have cottoned on far quicker that a major tragedy was unfolding and the last thing on Liverpool fans' minds was a scrap. They were too busy trying to save lives which was damning given the poor response of SYMAS.

On a general point, I shudder to think if the main stand at Bradford had been penned in at the time of the fire. It wouldnt have been 56 that died that day, it would have been ten or twenty times that figure.

Edited by The Real Zippy
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I don't think he cares how any of these families feels at all.

He has deluded himself that he doesn't need to go through the 2 years of evidence line by line but can make conclusions on the basis of a few minutes of grainy footage on the BBC.

Absolutely. The jury heard 2 years worth of evidence before coming to their conclusion. Their decision in law is now FACT.

Irrespective of who is to blame it should never have taken 27 years to get the truth. The police, the ambulance, and the press all told blatant lies about the events of the day that prolonged the agony for all of those that suffered. Remember as well as the ones that died others suffered physical and metal problems as a result of the events.

My respect goes to the families of the deceased who for 27 years fought for justice against an institutional brickwall with respect, tenacity and a determined stubbornness to ensure that the truth be told.

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There are people who think that Stuart adds to the forum, as he generates a "following" who take great delight in pouncing on his every word.

Does he believe the stuff he posts?

I happen to believe it's a mixture of belief and a serious effort to annoy/wind up.

Whatever it might be he makes a serious effort to cause disruption, slightly counterbalanced by the odd "like me" post.

The issue is that people regularly jump into his world, which makes it easier for him to continually feed the desire to have a go at him.

An attention seeker, most definitely, and damn good at it, but the real issue is the continual responses he gets to feed this desire.

No point in getting all "angry" at him, either let it go or ignore him, although there is an equal need to respond from many.

He provides a service, and a important outlet for many, weird, eh?

Who is this person to whom you are referring.....? blink.png

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