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Hillsborough Disaster Verdict


shull
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Stadium design was at fault. Sheffield Wednesday were at fault. The fans died because of crushing in the central pens. The behaviour of the fans was not a factor in the deaths. The actions of the police, specifically opening gates to allow a flood of fans to rush in, and then compound that by not having anyone guide them to the end pens resulted in 96 fans being unlawfully killed.

Why did it take 27 years to come to conclusions that were pretty damn clear about a fortnight after the disaster?

I'm sorry Poz but the behaviour of the fans was definitely a factor. Consider this, if you are walking into a room and it's uncomfortably full does a reasonable person push and force their way in, or do they step back out of the room and find space in which to stand? So why didn't those coming late to Leppings Lane not do the same? Was it because there was a stampede of fans and those approaching that pen couldn't back out? Or was it a case of successive numbers of fans getting to that pen, seeing it was full and pushing in anyway? Why did it need police or stewards to divert the fans away from the full area of the stadium into the far emptier pen next to it?

Also why were fans everywhere at that time being enclosed into areas? Wasn't it because fans were fighting with each other causing the supposed need for segregation, and weren't fans often guilty of pitch invading, thereby causing a need for high perimeter fencing to try to keep them away from players and officials? Also consider what the attitude of the police would have been anyway in the build up to this fixture knowing full well what the historic behaviour of the Liverpool fans was and of their reputation right across Europe for fighting, trying to get into matches for free, and for stealing.

Everything has a cause and effect. The reason the terraces at Hillborough was unsafe was because it was modified in design to stop fans fighting and to stop fans invading the pitch. Why were the gates opened? Was it because fans outside the ground were getting impatient at the turnstyles because the match was starting and they weren't in the stadium yet? Was it because a large number of fans turned up at the ground minutes before kick off? Why when the gates were opened were fans "rushing" in.

Liverpool fans were undeniably a factor in all of this, as were the police, as was stadium design, as was the FA, as were football hooligans all over the UK whose difficulty in behaving caused these dangerous modifications. The fact is that what happened at Hillsborough could just have easily have happened at Hampden in the 80's or at Celtic Park and at hundreds of other stadia in all sports all across the country. It's great to hear one of the parents today saying on Sky News that the legacy of the 96 is all seater stadia and the fact that fans these days can go to games knowing they'll be much more likely to come back home and to hear her say that the Hillsborough Families will never back moves to safe standing. That's the important lesson that needed learning.

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I blame football hooligans. If it wasn't for them then there would not have been fences put up at the front of the stand and people would have been able to escape onto the pitch.

I also blame the local council for not forcing pubs / off licences to close earlier thus allowing / forcing people to go to the game earlier.

I also blame pubs / off licences for taking advantage of the council not forcing them to close early.

I also blame bus drivers for not getting fans there earlier.

I also blame supporters bus conveners for not organising the buses to get fans there earlier.

I also blame the fans for not going earlier.

I also blame the police for not controlling the crowds outside the ground which led to the initial crush and the resultant decisions.

I also blame Sheffield Wednesday for not foreseeing the potential danger of their ground.

I also blame the FA for choosing Hillsborough while not foreseeing the potential danger of the ground.

I also blame whoever gave the stadium a safety certificate.

But, most of all, I blame Cheesey.

I don't think that there was a single action that caused this and to try and blame any one person specifically, or a few people, would just be totally ridiculous.

Shit, it looks like I agree with Dicko.

Aye, but if the police don't open those gates allowing the fatal big crush of fans - none of the 'pubs or buses or getting their earlier' matters a hell of a lot. If they don't open those gates, there are problems outside, but not fatal. Then they buy themselves time to delay the kick off and make further crowd management decisions. Just my opinion, but the men in charge of the police that day are responsible for the main factor in the deaths inside the stadium. They had a tough job, I don't deny that, but they failed.

Edited by pozbaird
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Excellent video clip on The Guardian site highlighting Duckenfield's inexperience and immediate lie that the gate had been forced open.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-inquiry-anatomy-of-a-disaster-video

Edited by Eric Arthur Blair
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Aye, but if the police don't open those gates allowing the fatal big crush of fans - none of the 'pubs or buses or getting their earlier' matters a hell of a lot. If they don't open those gates, there are problems outside, but not fatal. Then they buy themselves time to delay the kick off and make further crowd management decisions. Just my opinion, but the men in charge of the police that day are responsible for the main factor in the deaths inside the stadium. They had a tough job, I don't deny that, but they failed.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/75269000/jpg/_75269675_75269674.jpg

The gate would have been opened to alleviate crushing at the turnstyles. Look at the approach to the turnstyles. It's not an area constructed to hold large numbers of supporters trying to get in. I can understand the decision. It was disasterous. He was inexperienced. There has been a cover up. But I don't think for a minute that decision on it's own led to 96 people dying.

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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The fact that the police requested dogs before ambulances sums up how the incident was managed.

I can appreciate that everyone makes mistakes, and some can have tragic consequences, but to subsequently lie, cover up the facts to avoid responsibility, and blame the victims is indefensible.

ETA - and to enlist the services of the gutter press to assist in the above was despicable.

Edited by Drew
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Yes, I said there were problems outside the gate, but it was outside, not in pens from which there was no escape.

True, but it's all cause and effect. You've got a crush outside the stadium, with more fans approaching. The game has kicked off on time. and the number of turnstyles open is nowhere near sufficient. How do you deal with it? Do you let the dangerous crush develop outside or do you let everyone in to the end where there is supposedly sufficient capacity to cope with everyone. You've got minutes to decide. Do you have time to divert police into Leppings Lane to divert fans into the side pens? Does that even cross your mind?

There's too many factors in this disaster to blame one individual.

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True, but it's all cause and effect. You've got a crush outside the stadium, with more fans approaching. The game has kicked off on time. and the number of turnstyles open is nowhere near sufficient. How do you deal with it? Do you let the dangerous crush develop outside or do you let everyone in to the end where there is supposedly sufficient capacity to cope with everyone. You've got minutes to decide. Do you have time to divert police into Leppings Lane to divert fans into the side pens? Does that even cross your mind?

There's too many factors in this disaster to blame one individual.

If they hadn't opened the gate, do you think 96 people would have died that day?

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The fact that the police requested dogs before ambulances sums up how the incident was managed.

I can appreciate that everyone makes mistakes, and some can have tragic consequences, but to subsequently lie, cover up the facts to avoid responsibility, and blame the victims is indefensible.

ETA - and to enlist the services of the gutter press to assist in the above was despicable.

Yes it does - but then when you listen to Bruce Grobbelaar give his testimony in any interview he says that he told the first fans coming onto the pitch to get back in the terrace and to behave themselves. He claims he wasn't aware of the disaster happening just yards behind him. He thought it was a pitch invasion by fans intent on causing trouble. He's talking about his own support. His own fans. People who worshipped him. Sadly that was the nature of football back then, particularly in England. Everyone watching would have assumed the same at that time.

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Yes it does - but then when you listen to Bruce Grobbelaar give his testimony in any interview he says that he told the first fans coming onto the pitch to get back in the terrace and to behave themselves. He claims he wasn't aware of the disaster happening just yards behind him. He thought it was a pitch invasion by fans intent on causing trouble. He's talking about his own support. His own fans. People who worshipped him. Sadly that was the nature of football back then, particularly in England. Everyone watching would have assumed the same at that time.

Are you suggesting that players on the pitch would have been regarding the unfolding incident from the same perspective as the police?

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If they hadn't opened the gate, do you think 96 people would have died that day?

It's impossible to say Poz. There was certainly an ensuing risk of casualties and possible fatalities though and opening the gate to let fans into an area where there was capacity for them should have eased the crisis. Even if those fans had just stood in the walkway up to the pens it would have alleviated the problem to some extent. Instead fans pushed their way into a pen that was already far too full.

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Are you suggesting that players on the pitch would have been regarding the unfolding incident from the same perspective as the police?

No. The players would have been focused on the match which was about to kick off. The police focus would have been on preventing crowd trouble. There's plenty of testimony about the incident that says even first aiders right in front of the fences took too long to realise what was going on. As fans started to come over the barrier they would have been concerned that this was another Heysel kicking off.

Those who aren't rewriting history will remember Liverpool fans reputation all across Europe. It's hardly a surprise the police would lead with dogs.

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It's impossible to say Poz. There was certainly an ensuing risk of casualties and possible fatalities though and opening the gate to let fans into an area where there was capacity for them should have eased the crisis. Even if those fans had just stood in the walkway up to the pens it would have alleviated the problem to some extent. Instead fans pushed their way into a pen that was already far too full.

Impossible to say? 96 people would have been crushed to death outside the stadium? The police would have bought themselves a ton of time. Look, I am agreeing that IF fans turned up early, IF Hillsborough had been better designed, IF, IF, IF yer' auntie had bawz.

I'm not looking for a scapegoat. In my opinion, despite all the IFs that I acknowledge, Duckenfield & Co opening that gate directly lead to the deaths of 96 people crushed in those pens. I believe the police knew it too, and initiated a cover up.

IF, IF, IF is all fine and dandy. IF, the Heysel Stadium had never been awarded the final....

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You could say that the fans who went into the central pen after the gate was opened directly caused the deaths couldn't you?

You could say the Fans didn't know what was in front of them.You could also say the police should have known what would happen.

Are you the Editor of the sun?

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You could say the Fans didn't know what was in front of them.You could also say the police should have known what would happen.

Are you the Editor of the sun?

So if you are faced with an uncomfortably crowded room do you push in, or do you stop, back up and look for an alternative place to stand?

Of course the fans coming in at 3pm knew what was in front of them. It was a densely populated pen which they crushed into regardless. Nosferatu is correct. You could easily argue that the deaths were caused by Liverpool fans who entered into that central pen despite it being overcrowded.

I can't get my head around why the inquest found that that there was nothing about the behaviour of the fans that day that caused or contributed to the disaster. Of course it contributed - whether you want to talk about the late arrival of fans to the stadium, the rush to get in once the gates had opened, or the sheep like fashion that so many took to choose the overcrowded central pen when they had alternative choices.

It looks to me like the jury bottled it and ducked out of any possible criticism from the victims families.

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And just to re-iterate again - the victims families stated belief is that the legacy of the disaster is all seater stadia. They say they could never support any campaign to re-introduce standing at any football ground. Instead of blaming police errors and conducting a witchhunt there are a few on this very thread who should remember that and compare it to their previous posts regarding so called "safe standing".

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So if you are faced with an uncomfortably crowded room do you push in, or do you stop, back up and look for an alternative place to stand?

Of course the fans coming in at 3pm knew what was in front of them. It was a densely populated pen which they crushed into regardless. Nosferatu is correct. You could easily argue that the deaths were caused by Liverpool fans who entered into that central pen despite it being overcrowded.

I can't get my head around why the inquest found that that there was nothing about the behaviour of the fans that day that caused or contributed to the disaster. Of course it contributed - whether you want to talk about the late arrival of fans to the stadium, the rush to get in once the gates had opened, or the sheep like fashion that so many took to choose the overcrowded central pen when they had alternative choices.

It looks to me like the jury bottled it and ducked out of any possible criticism from the victims families.

I was hoping I would avoid personalizing my response, but I've not been able to.

The fans weren't at some dinner party, "i say, old chum, its awfully crowded in here, lets go to the kitchen". They were in a football stadium, fans in front, fans behind, penned in, nowhere to go.

You, sir, are a f**king moron. That is all.

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And just to re-iterate again - the victims families stated belief is that the legacy of the disaster is all seater stadia. They say they could never support any campaign to re-introduce standing at any football ground. Instead of blaming police errors and conducting a witchhunt there are a few on this very thread who should remember that and compare it to their previous posts regarding so called "safe standing".

Who the fcuk are you preaching to? Fcuking arse.

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I was hoping I would avoid personalizing my response, but I've not been able to.

The fans weren't at some dinner party, "i say, old chum, its awfully crowded in here, lets go to the kitchen". They were in a football stadium, fans in front, fans behind, penned in, nowhere to go.

You, sir, are a f**king moron. That is all.

Rubbish. Fans coming into the ground at 3pm had a choice. They got to the top of the slope and had a choice of three pens. It appears most chose the middle pen despite it already being overcrowded. They contributed massively to the death of their fellow fans. How can that be argued?

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So if you are faced with an uncomfortably crowded room do you push in, or do you stop, back up and look for an alternative place to stand?

Of course the fans coming in at 3pm knew what was in front of them. It was a densely populated pen which they crushed into regardless. Nosferatu is correct. You could easily argue that the deaths were caused by Liverpool fans who entered into that central pen despite it being overcrowded.

I can't get my head around why the inquest found that that there was nothing about the behaviour of the fans that day that caused or contributed to the disaster. Of course it contributed - whether you want to talk about the late arrival of fans to the stadium, the rush to get in once the gates had opened, or the sheep like fashion that so many took to choose the overcrowded central pen when they had alternative choices.

It looks to me like the jury bottled it and ducked out of any possible criticism from the victims families. During

During a two year process there was not ONE piece of evidence that the fans had caused or contributed to the disaster. But go on Mr f**kin know it all educate us with your infinite wisdom.

So it was the fans fault for turning up late? Wasn't the police's fault for opening the gate then lying for 25 years saying the fans had forced it open.? Wasn't the FA's fault for holding a huge semi final at a ground with no valid safely certificate?

You are really not worth having a sensible debate on this and I suggest everyone ignores this odious little man!!!

Next you will be telling us the fans picked the pockets of the dead and urinated on the Police!!!!

What a complete Dick!!

Edited by Mr Optimistic
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