Hillsborough Disaster Verdict

[treaclebreeks]

Why do we have government, politicians, polis...?

Because in current society, the majority of people are too thick, narrow-minded, mendacious, greedy or self-serving to understand the bigger picture. (See any of Dixon's posts as example.)

In the case of Liverpudlians happily going to see their football team that afternoon, how could they possibly have foreseen the horrors. They were naturally exuberant, celebratory, ordinary... They expected to travel home later - victorious or vanquished - but safely in a civilised society, for which they paid their taxes and invested their lives.

Fair enough. In a complex and ever-changing world, we invest power in govt and cops to ensure that events such as Hillsborough do not come to pass. In much the same way we trust 'our betters' to keep the roads and railways safe, our borders secure, and our futures reasonably happy. Those people afforded those powers of control and governance, by and large, are better rewarded than those of us that they oversee.

When they f**k-up, as fate asserts they regularly do, their failures should/must be called to account. The polis and govt, in this case as in others, connived to avoid responsibility. Though I might not like the idea of individuals shouldering all the blame, they can't be absolved. Misusing power and responsibility should be a blame shared by individual cops and politicians as well as those further up the food chain.

Unlawful killing was the right result.

Fuck 'em. And the likes of Dixon who minimise the system's failures and, as in this case, diminish the deaths of those unfortunates that the state failed on that day.

[Stuart Dickson]

Why do we have government, politicians, polis...?

Because in current society, the majority of people are too thick, narrow-minded, mendacious, greedy or self-serving to understand the bigger picture. (See any of Dixon's posts as example.)

In the case of Liverpudlians happily going to see their football team that afternoon, how could they possibly have foreseen the horrors. They were naturally exuberant, celebratory, ordinary... They expected to travel home later - victorious or vanquished - but safely in a civilised society, for which they paid their taxes and invested their lives.

Fair enough. In a complex and ever-changing world, we invest power in govt and cops to ensure that events such as Hillsborough do not come to pass. In much the same way we trust 'our betters' to keep the roads and railways safe, our borders secure, and our futures reasonably happy. Those people afforded those powers of control and governance, by and large, are better rewarded than those of us that they oversee.

When they f**k-up, as fate asserts they regularly do, their failures should/must be called to account. The polis and govt, in this case as in others, connived to avoid responsibility. Though I might not like the idea of individuals shouldering all the blame, they can't be absolved. Misusing power and responsibility should be a blame shared by individual cops and politicians as well as those further up the food chain.

Unlawful killing was the right result.

Fuck 'em. And the likes of Dixon who minimise the system's failures and, as in this case, diminish the deaths of those unfortunates that the state failed on that day.

"Exuberant, celebratory, ordinary" = lemmings? Apparently so in your world. Just people who kept on pushing and squeezing and crushing and killing.

Ofcourse since that event government has moved to make stadia safer and to ensure we never have another Hillsborough. Yet still some really stupid lemmings want to rip the safety features back out so everyone can stand at the football, no doubt swaying and crushing just like in the good old days.....no doubt so they can blame the government and the police next time disaster strikes.

[faraway saint]

Do they still sell The Sun in Liverpool?

[treaclebreeks]

"Exuberant, celebratory, ordinary" = lemmings? Apparently so in your world. Just people who kept on pushing and squeezing and crushing and killing.

Ofcourse since that event government has moved to make stadia safer and to ensure we never have another Hillsborough. Yet still some really stupid lemmings want to rip the safety features back out so everyone can stand at the football, no doubt swaying and crushing just like in the good old days.....no doubt so they can blame the government and the police next time disaster strikes.

"too thick, narrow-minded, mendacious, greedy or self-serving to understand the bigger picture. (See any of Dixon's posts as example.)"

Apparently so.

You still don't get it.

It's always all about you.

If only there was some form of governance that could curtail your self abuse...

[faraway saint]

Current BBC Breakfast coverage is very moving.

Deservingly so, shows the importance of this to the whole of Britain, not just the city of Liverpool.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

A long straight narrow tunnel leads people to focus on getting to the end point, esp in a large crowd. Add to this the police command making a decision to let people in an exit gate

Anyone blaming fans for trying to get to the terracing, or indeed out of an overcrowded enclosed tunnel either never attended large events or more likely have conveniently forgotten as it doesn't suit their agenda.

[RickMcD]

I'm a bit claustrophobic and the pictures of those tunnels give me the creeps. The old tunnels at Tynecastle used to bug me. Even worse they flowed with piss.

[faraway saint]

This from a thread started in 2009 gives some insight into what could easily have happened in football grounds around the country in the "good old days".............(© Gary Blues)

Motherwell v St Mirren, 1996/97

The official crowd was in excess of 26,000 that day. No doubt there was well over 30,000 packed into Fir Park that afternoon.

What makes that remarkable is the context - Motherwell's average home leage gate was only around 7,000 with the highest being 18,000 for the visit of Rangers. Scottish football gates were hitting an all time low in the late 70s and the eventual Scottish Cup Final that season between Rangers & Celtic attracted a crowd not much more than 50,000 when Scottish Cup Finals earleir that decade were still attracting crowds in excess of 100,000.

Motherwell have never seen such a big attendance since and obviously never will again. The St. Mirren support that day was possibly the largest travelling support ever to visit Fir Park.

Having been at this game I remember vividly the worry on trying to leave the ground, a few could easily have fallen and the outcome could have been a disaster.

Only referencing this to show how easily a tragedy could happen.

Edited April 27, 2016 by faraway saint

[Drew]

This from a thread started in 2009 gives some insight into what could easily have happened in football grounds around the country in the "good old days".............(© Gary Blues)

Motherwell v St Mirren, 1996/97

The official crowd was in excess of 26,000 that day. No doubt there was well over 30,000 packed into Fir Park that afternoon.

What makes that remarkable is the context - Motherwell's average home leage gate was only around 7,000 with the highest being 18,000 for the visit of Rangers. Scottish football gates were hitting an all time low in the late 70s and the eventual Scottish Cup Final that season between Rangers & Celtic attracted a crowd not much more than 50,000 when Scottish Cup Finals earleir that decade were still attracting crowds in excess of 100,000.

Motherwell have never seen such a big attendance since and obviously never will again. The St. Mirren support that day was possibly the largest travelling support ever to visit Fir Park.

Having been at this game I remember vividly the worry on trying to leave the ground, a few could easily have fallen and the outcome could have been a disaster.

Only referencing this to show how easily a tragedy could happen.

You remember it vividly because it was the last game you attended ;-)

[Brian1877]

I wonder if dicks on here would have thought it was a waste of taxpayers money if it was their 16 year old son who had been killed going to a football game, due to the incompetence and mistakes of others and then had to read lies about it, for years later, made up by Police and Governments who are supposed to serve the public.

I wonder if they would then continue to argue against the legal outcome of the longest running legal case in British history because obviously, they know best.

How do you put dicks on ignore?

[Stuart Dickson]

A long straight narrow tunnel leads people to focus on getting to the end point, esp in a large crowd. Add to this the police command making a decision to let people in an exit gate

Anyone blaming fans for trying to get to the terracing, or indeed out of an overcrowded enclosed tunnel either never attended large events or more likely have conveniently forgotten as it doesn't suit their agenda.

There were THREE tunnels. You and others keep missing that point - probably because that doesn't suit your rather obvious agenda.

[Soctty]

The behaviour of fans was not a factor in the deaths of the 96. That is the finding of the inquest. The opinion of anyone without the information and evidence held by the jurors is irrelevant, as it's based on hearsay, on supposition, on misconceptions.

For anyone to find the fans responsible, answer this - why was there not a crush at every football match with the type of attendance this one drew? Why did matches with far bigger crowds, at far bigger stadiums, not result in such crushes and huge numbers of fatalities?

It's pitiful and disgusting to read people still blaming the fans for this. Utterly abhorrent.

[Stuart Dickson]

This from a thread started in 2009 gives some insight into what could easily have happened in football grounds around the country in the "good old days".............(© Gary Blues)

Motherwell v St Mirren, 1996/97

The official crowd was in excess of 26,000 that day. No doubt there was well over 30,000 packed into Fir Park that afternoon.

What makes that remarkable is the context - Motherwell's average home leage gate was only around 7,000 with the highest being 18,000 for the visit of Rangers. Scottish football gates were hitting an all time low in the late 70s and the eventual Scottish Cup Final that season between Rangers & Celtic attracted a crowd not much more than 50,000 when Scottish Cup Finals earleir that decade were still attracting crowds in excess of 100,000.

Motherwell have never seen such a big attendance since and obviously never will again. The St. Mirren support that day was possibly the largest travelling support ever to visit Fir Park.

Having been at this game I remember vividly the worry on trying to leave the ground, a few could easily have fallen and the outcome could have been a disaster.

Only referencing this to show how easily a tragedy could happen.

Absolutely. I wasn't at Fir Park that day, but I too had been in several situations in the 70's and 80's where tragedy could have struck. The worst one I experienced was at Hampden Park on the 14th of November 1984. Scotland were playing Spain in a World Cup Qualifier. Kenny Dalglish netted twice, Mo Johnston got the other as Scotland beat Spain 3-1. I was in the East Terrace and I wanted to get to the Mount Florida side to start my walk home. Back then a huge metal fence had been erected at the back of what is now the South Stand - it was erected with the purpose of segregating the "Rangers" end from the "Celtic" end after the riots in 1980. The fence went from the main stand building all the way across the car park, and in the middle of the fence was a gate probably no more than 15' - 20' wide. The crush at the bottleneck was ridiculous. Thousands of Scottish fans trying to get from the West terrace to Kings Park, and thousands trying to go the other way. I was fortunate, as the crush got worse and I started to struggle to breathe an adult - whom I didn't know - pulled me up onto his shoulders. As far as I know no-one died that night, but I saw several falling and being trampled on. It was scary.

Even at the old Love Street in an quarter filled stadium the surges of the crowd in the North Bank could have had severe consequences. Kids lined the front rows of the terraces, and when a player the fans didn't like passed you'd often get a surge of fans pushing down the terrace to shout abuse. Or when a goal was scored there was many times where you'd be pushed and jostled around in a crowd of swaying adults. I remember first aiders being kept reasonably busy often treating minor injuries - far more busy than they are today. Yet still we get people who advocate ripping up seats and going back to the days of the terrace with so called "safe standing" the oxymoron often being used.

The legacy of the 96 is that we now have much safer stadia thanks to the Taylor Report. Those who want to forget the lessons of the past to "boost the atmosphere" are the ones who need to take a long look at themselves.

[Soctty]

No I haven't. I have infact done the opposite. I've said that the police made many critical mistakes on the day, as did the ambulance service and the match day referee, who didn't delay kick off. The blame for these deaths should be shared. What I then went on to say is I cannot understand why the fans appear to have been completely exonerated when clearly it was the actions of MANY of those fans who physically caused the crushing that killed the 96 in the first place.

You're an utter c**t. You've gone beyond trolling.

You're a total scumbag. As long as you're still posting here, I won't be back.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

One tunnel or three, it's irrelevant when you are herded to one.

[Stuart Dickson]

The behaviour of fans was not a factor in the deaths of the 96. That is the finding of the inquest. The opinion of anyone without the information and evidence held by the jurors is irrelevant, as it's based on hearsay, on supposition, on misconceptions.

For anyone to find the fans responsible, answer this - why was there not a crush at every football match with the type of attendance this one drew? Why did matches with far bigger crowds, at far bigger stadiums, not result in such crushes and huge numbers of fatalities?

It's pitiful and disgusting to read people still blaming the fans for this. Utterly abhorrent.

The bold bit is simply NOT TRUE Soctty. Read the question the jurers were asked regarding fan behaviour

Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

The jury answered no. There was no question at the inquest asking if the fans behaviour contributed to the deaths of the 96.

[Stuart Dickson]

You're an utter c**t. You've gone beyond trolling.

You're a total scumbag. As long as you're still posting here, I won't be back.

Cheerio....

[Stuart Dickson]

One tunnel or three, it's irrelevant when you are herded to one.

No-one herded anyone. You're making that up in the face of all the evidence.

The criticism of the police at the inquest was that the tunnel in question was not closed and that there was no police presence in place to guide supporters into the other two tunnels. There was an open choice for anyone coming up that walkway. Three tunnels - all open. One led to an overcrowded pen. For some reason the majority of Liverpool fans chose that one ahead of the other two. For some reason when they got to the end of the tunnel they opted to continue into the pen, and didn't back out to space and to the more empty pens on either side.

[shull]

Do they still sell The Sun in Liverpool?

They do in Cardonald. I purchased one earlier today.

[shull]

You're an utter c**t. You've gone beyond trolling.

You're a total scumbag. As long as you're still posting here, I won't be back.

Cheerio

We don't want foul mouthed abusers on here. Especially those abusing fellow St Mirren fans for having an honest opinion.

Disgraceful

[Soctty]

Cheerio

We don't want foul mouthed abusers on here. Especially those abusing fellow St Mirren fans for having an honest opinion.

Disgraceful

Back on for a moment just to say - apologies if anyone was offended by my language, but the guy is a c**t, and he's peddling , inhumane shite blaming fans for killing the 96.

If you think that's acceptable, I hope you never have the misfortune to be in a similar situation in a huge crowd. I've been in a tightly crowded area at a football match before. I would not expect that some worthless piece of shit would blame me for injuries or death sustained by anyone at the match.

Anyone who believes that is right and acceptable can accept the same tag I gave to the attention seeking prick who is still ploughing on regardelss of the feelings of anyone involved, or the findings of the inquest.

[shull]

Back on for a moment just to say - apologies if anyone was offended by my language, but the guy is a c**t, and he's peddling , inhumane shite blaming fans for killing the 96.

If you think that's acceptable, I hope you never have the misfortune to be in a similar situation in a huge crowd. I've been in a tightly crowded area at a football match before. I would not expect that some worthless piece of shit would blame me for injuries or death sustained by anyone at the match.

Anyone who believes that is right and acceptable can accept the same tag I gave to the attention seeking prick who is still ploughing on regardelss of the feelings of anyone involved, or the findings of the inquest.

Still here?

[nosferatu]

You could say the people who invented football actually caused it.

Exactly my point. You could say that there were a whole host of factors involved. To blame one person is unfair IMO.

[nosferatu]

You could say the Fans didn't know what was in front of them.You could also say the police should have known what would happen.

Are you the Editor of the sun?

You aren't getting my point. I'm not blaming the fans.

What I'm saying is that there were a whole host of factors involved in the tragedy.

To single out one person is unfair.

[nosferatu]

2 years of evidence and a full jury who made decisions based on that evidence but apparently we should just ignore that and listen to you pair of spangles?

I have had my suspicions in the past about whether the fans contributed to this or not. Todays ruling clears it up once and for all.

Why cant you accept that? its not as though either of you idiots were in attendance.

Deary me.

I had a feeling that my post would draw out extreme stupidity like this.

Edited April 27, 2016 by nosferatu