The Politics Thread

[Reynard]

On 12/1/2016 at 6:46 PM, Slartibartfast said:

 

Sorry? What?

Stay in the single market, for which they will have to agree to freedom of movement, implementation of lots of EU laws / regulations and also pay lots of money into the EU. No rebate, no EU funding and no "seat at the table".

Freedom of movement is what a lot of Leave voters thought they were voting to stop.

Paying money into the EU is what a lot of Leave voters thought they were voting to stop.

Having to implement EU laws is what a lot of Leave voters thought they were voting to stop.

The EU is going to make an example of the UK to discourage other countries from leaving, anyone who thinks otherwise is naive, which will result in either the UK leaving totally with a shitty deal or finding a way to not leave the EU at all, either via a Commons vote or via another referendum.

But, yes, lentil soup is nice.

 

EEA/EFTA countries are in the single market and do agree FOM. But article 112-113 of the EEA treaty is about "safeguard measures" and allows any signatory to the treaty to call a halt or decide how many it allows in to work in the national interest. It can halt it unilaterally. It also allows a state to stop the flow of capital or goods as well. Leichtenstein have limited freedom of movement to work and have used this article in the treaty for 21 years. Austria used It prior to joining the EU. Iceland used it to stop capital flight during their banking crisis. It can be temporary or it can be permanent. Up to the member state. I didn't vote to stop freedom of movement to work.

 

To be in the single market you agree to the trade acquis which is less than a quarter of all EU law. Much of that trade regulation is made at WTO level where we would regain our seat, so we WOULD be fashioning trade rules which are THEN implemented by the EU. Standardisation is becoming globalised now and the EU is increasingly simpkly adopting rules from above. Rules we cant shape just now but which we will be able to do once we are out.

 

No EEA/EFTA member state pays any money into the EU. They pay into EEA grants which are definitely not part of the EU budget.

 

The EU may decide to punish. But its highly unlikely as they self harm if they do. The smart money is on the UK being parked in the likes of the EEA short term which secures all trade both ways. The rest of the acquis gets unpicked as they arise.

 

There is zero chance of us being asked whether we want to stay in again.

 

At the end of the article 50 period, if parliament decides it must vote on the final deal the fair enough. Vote away. If it rejects it then we are out regardless. It just means we go to WTO rules and a very hard brexit indeed which will harm trade. Theres no chance they will vote to do that.

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

 

This is the plan being passed round Whitehall just now. Whether they use it in full or make their own modifications? Who knows? But its the clear sensible path out.

 

The main problem just now is that the likes of the Norway model (the EEA route out)was trashed on both sides of the referendum campaign and a lot of the total misinformation you spouted has become mainstream thinking. But it bears no resemblance to reality.

 

 

[Reynard]

Out of the EU you are not subordinate to the ECJ either. There is an EFTA court but its as toothless as the average scheme goblin. Our supreme court would not be subordinate to it.

[Reynard]

Article 112-113 has been looked at several times since being first inserted into the EEA treaty. The last time was last year and it was kept in.

 

If the EU had actually just adopted this in the first place then its possible we would have remained.But they didn't because they are imbeciles.

[salmonbuddie]

BORING!

That's kind of the whole point...

[oaksoft]

15 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

You basically agree with everything I said, just going into more detail and trying to spin it, and then say that I'm spouting misinformation.  That would make your post misinformation too.

You really aren't very good at this.

You promised me Reynard had been "telt" and was going to disappear.

Hmmmmph.

[Reynard]

40 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

You basically agree with everything I said, just going into more detail and trying to spin it, and then say that I'm spouting misinformation.  That would make your post misinformation too.

You really aren't very good at this.

Well you weren't being very accurate. You can be now after finding out some things that you had no idea about.

[Stuart Dickson]

6 hours ago, tony soprano said:

Yes, it was the dumbf**k from Wishaw

No it wasn't. If you go back and read my posts properly you will see that when asked - if 3.8% is major what is 96.2% my response was "a lot more". I have never once claimed that any loss of trade should be dismissed. But thanks for providing us all with the proof that to vote SNP you have to have something lacking in your education. I guess you just have to hope that one day you'll be able to get some brain cells free on prescription  

Edited December 5, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[Guest TPAFKATS]

No it wasn't. If you go back and read my posts properly you will see that when asked - if 3.8% is major what is 96.2% my response was "a lot more". I have never once claimed that any loss of trade should be dismissed. But thanks for providing us all with the proof that to vote SNP you have to have something lacking in your education. I guess you just have to hope that one day you'll be able to get some brain cells free on prescription  

You don't understand simple arithmetic and now you show you have no understanding of percentages.

You really are a lost cause

[Stuart Dickson]

Just now, tony soprano said:

You don't understand simple arithmetic and now you show you have no understanding of percentages.

You really are a lost cause

I think you are lost. 

I haven't attempted any sort of mathematical or arithmetical calculation. I've simply pointed out that for Hungary to lose a major export market like the UK it would be catastrophic for them. You and your fellow idiots have struggled since then to comprehend what that means. I pity you. 

 

[salmonbuddie]

No it wasn't. If you go back and read my posts properly you will see that when asked - if 3.8% is major what is 96.2% my response was "a lot more". I have never once claimed that any loss of trade should be dismissed. But thanks for providing us all with the proof that to vote SNP you have to have something lacking in your education. I guess you just have to hope that one day you'll be able to get some brain cells free on prescription  

I think you are lost. 

I haven't attempted any sort of mathematical or arithmetical calculation. I've simply pointed out that for Hungary to lose a major export market like the UK it would be catastrophic for them. You and your fellow idiots have struggled since then to comprehend what that means. I pity you. 

 

What a pile of wanky pish...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I think you are lost. 

I haven't attempted any sort of mathematical or arithmetical calculation. I've simply pointed out that for Hungary to lose a major export market like the UK it would be catastrophic for them. You and your fellow idiots have struggled since then to comprehend what that means. I pity you. 

 

You think 3.8% is major [emoji3]

I'll try one last time to help you.
Think of a pizza, do you like pizza Stuey?
If you lose 3.8% of your pizza would it be catastrophic?

[Stuart Dickson]

Just now, tony soprano said:

You think 3.8% is major

I'll try one last time to help you.
Think of a pizza, do you like pizza Stuey?
If you lose 3.8% of your pizza would it be catastrophic?

Oh good. So yet another Natsi who would dismiss the loss of 3.8% of our exports as being unimportant. 

You do know that in Scottish terms that would equate to the loss of £2.8Bn worth of business don't you? 

[oaksoft]

13 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Oh good. So yet another Natsi who would dismiss the loss of 3.8% of our exports as being unimportant. 

You do know that in Scottish terms that would equate to the loss of £2.8Bn worth of business don't you? 

As an aside, I do have to wonder why you believe that the UK will lose ALL 3.8%. We may lose some of it but why do you think we will lose ALL of it? You pull this same nonsense with the independence debate.

[saintnextlifetime]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You promised me Reynard had been "telt" and was going to disappear.

Hmmmmph.

Welcome back Oackstur . .

[Stuart Dickson]

18 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

But it would still only be 3.8% irrespective of whether it was £2 or £2bn. In fact, in a way, the higher the monetary value of the 3.8%, the less of an effect it would have overall.

 

Whatever the monetary value I would not want to lose any of it. 

Tell me Slarti - if your boss offers you a 3.8% wage cut in your annual review will you write it off as insignificant? 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh good. So yet another Natsi who would dismiss the loss of 3.8% of our exports as being unimportant. 

You do know that in Scottish terms that would equate to the loss of £2.8Bn worth of business don't you? 

You stated it was absolutely massive.
If 3.8% of an independent Scotland's exports is absolutely massive, then what does that make the other 96.2%.

Keep up the good work selling an independent Scotland! [emoji3]

[Stuart Dickson]

59 minutes ago, tony soprano said:

You stated it was absolutely massive.
If 3.8% of an independent Scotland's exports is absolutely massive, then what does that make the other 96.2%.

Keep up the good work selling an independent Scotland!

I stated 3.8% of Scotlands exports is £2.8Bn. Losing that amount of business would be absolutely massive in an economy which is already desperately in need of it's subsidy from the UK, who btw are where Scotland sells 64% of it's total exports. If you think that is selling Independence you are thicker than I ever thought. Do you, Cockles and Slarti combined have more brain cells than there are blue M&M's in this packet of Christmas M&M's. I seriously doubt it.

 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

f**kin he'll, he's persisting with the belief that 3.8% is absolutely massive. Obviously the pizza analogy didn't work.

[oaksoft]

You bastards. I am starving now.

[salmonbuddie]

Oh good. So yet another Natsi who would dismiss the loss of 3.8% of our exports as being unimportant. 

You do know that in Scottish terms that would equate to the loss of £2.8Bn worth of business don't you? 

Whatever the monetary value I would not want to lose any of it. 

Tell me Slarti - if your boss offers you a 3.8% wage cut in your annual review will you write it off as insignificant? 

I stated 3.8% of Scotlands exports is £2.8Bn. Losing that amount of business would be absolutely massive in an economy which is already desperately in need of it's subsidy from the UK, who btw are where Scotland sells 64% of it's total exports. If you think that is selling Independence you are thicker than I ever thought. Do you, Cockles and Slarti combined have more brain cells than there are blue M&M's in this packet of Christmas M&M's. I seriously doubt it.

 

What a pile of wanky pish...

[Reynard]

15 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

I find out things every day that I had little or no idea about, it's part of my job and I'm very good at it.  What you're referring to is anyone's guess, though.

So basically everything you were slabbering about regarding the EU was garbage. Thats what I was referring to.

 

Hows the split in the SNP going BTW?

 

I heard it was serious.

[Bud the Baker]

On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 11:37 AM, Stuart Dickson said:

Really Bud? An alternative to right wing government? Have you had a look round European politics? In Germany Merkel, more right wing than Cameron, is practically untouchable. In France the Socialist government is unlikely to survive the next election and there's a real possibility of Le Pens National Front - more right wing than the BNP - taking office. In Austria and Poland far right politics is on the rise. In Sweden the far right hold the balance of power currently and in Denmark their right wing government is heavily influenced by a popular far right party. And in Greece the most violent right wing party in Europe, Golden Dawn, with a leader who says he admires Hitler, is the third most popular party with a growing membership and increase popularity.

Now I voted Remain and stated, as did you, that I didn't care about the outcome but if your motive is avoiding right wing politics the EU is the last place you should be looking.

Nope - busted flush in the Presidential Election yesterday (like I predicted) and they'll do no better in the Parliamentary one next month. As for your prediction that the "populist right" were going to bring down Europe from within this year - Austria: failed, Netherlands: failed and humiliated Germany: the AfD are struggling to even make it to the election without completely imploding. Meanwhile Theresa May looks more & more like Poll Tax Era Thatcher with her pandering to UKIP voters.

As I said at the time  

On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 1:33 PM, Bud the Baker said:

Some specific points -

Merkel more right wing than Cameron - Merkel is a Christian Democrat who are generally considered centre-right as opposed to Cameron who is Conservative and just plain old right wing.

The French NF might be the largest single party in the first round like 2014/15 but in the second round when it's a run-off between the top two they'll lose as they always do.

The current Swedish coalition government is centre left/green, there are no parties in the Swedish parliament that would be considered far right like UKIP or the French NF.

**************

As I've stated above I'm under no illusion that the EU and it's parliament is perfect but it's a better option than Westminster and the Tories who in the last election moved to the right to attract UKIP voters and contain the deeply unpalatable Britannia Unchained faction who already have a member, Priti Patel, at Cabinet level (unlike the far right in Denmark). The UK Conservative Party is currently the most right wing party in government within the EU and it looks to be heading even further from the centre in reaction to Thursday's result ahead of it's departure.

I'm happy with NS's current strategy.

One of us was right.

 

[Bud the Baker]

RD agreeing that calls for IndyRef2 would be legitimate if the SNP won a majority at Holyrood in May 2021 - first question that springs to mind is would she quibble over a situation where Green/SNP combined to vote for one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48607722

All we need now is a coupla "marquee" signings! 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Bud the Baker

[beyond our ken]

1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

RD agreeing that calls for IndyRef2 would be legitimate if the SNP won a majority at Holyrood in May 2021 - first question that springs to mind is would she quibble over a situation where Green/SNP combined to vote for one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48607722

All we need now is a coupla "marquee" signings! 

We already have a stated majority for independence at Holyrood between green and snp members-we should also consider the possibility of other parties harbouring members with a leaning that way who are currently shtum on the subject.

Ruthie is playing games here, her comments are full of twists and turns and she is yet again playing to her gallery of people who need someone to fear more than they fear her.

[Bud the Baker]

21 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

We already have a stated majority for independence at Holyrood between green and snp members-we should also consider the possibility of other parties harbouring members with a leaning that way who are currently shtum on the subject.

Ruthie is playing games here, her comments are full of twists and turns and she is yet again playing to her gallery of people who need someone to fear more than they fear her.

Sure it's a tactical move by RD and I already pointed out there's wriggle room in her statement but it's one I'd say the SNP would do well to take up. The last Holyrood election was May 2016 prior to the Euro Referendum and I don't recall IndyRef2 being on the agenda. If the SNP/Green win a majority in 2021 on an IndyRef 2 platform I think it would be hard for Tories, Labour (if they're still there), the Lib/Dems & potentially the Brexit party to prevent a new independence referendum.

IMO the Brexit mess will still not be sorted by then so time shouldn't be an issue.

I'm a bit surprised at Ruthie's statement but perhaps she's realised that her two main topics of conversation "once in a generation" & "get on with the day job" are beginning to sound a bit tired. Also her status as potential "rising star" and future Tory leader at UK level will probably take a hit if, as seems likely, the current battle leads to a "No Dealer" winning!

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Bud the Baker