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Guest TPAFKATS
Its true though Oaksoft. If Scotland ever votes to go independent we better hope the country can afford all the lobotomies that would be needed. 

This makes even less sense than most of your posts.

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4 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

Oh yes there is, ignoring this won't make it go away so, for the second time, here it is, under 'Scotland's Future'

http://www.snp.org/the_snp_2016_manifesto_explained

Pretty straightforward you'll agree.

1.6 million Scots voted to stay in 

1.0 million Scots voted to leave

1.3 million didn't vote at all. 

You're not being taken out of the EU against your will. Most folk didn't give a f**k either way or wanted to leave. And there is no demonstrable evidence that the majority of Scots want another referendum 

Edited by Stuart Dickson
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1.6 million Scots voted to stay in 

1.0 million Scots voted to leave

1.3 million didn't vote at all. 

You're not being taken out of the EU against your will. Most folk didn't give a f**k either way or wanted to leave. And there is no demonstrable evidence that the majority of Scots want another referendum 

There's that straw clutching again....

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20 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Crrrriiiiiiinnnnnngge.

How on earth can we expect ZA to get his head out of his own arse when he has you in the way, half way up his colon.

:lol:

Typical reply from you. I have made my views on the EU many times. It's an undemocratic clusterf**k of the highest order and has been on the road to implosion for years. Now that one of the few net contributors has finally been forced out by their own electorate, that implosion is coming sooner. Now, if you do understand written English, you might just might start to comprehend that my opinion of the EU could hardly be more diametrically opposed to ZA's. But I defend freedom of speech and am happy to have dialogue with anyone once they stop flinging round insults, especially with childish sexual innuendo thrown in to boot.

The clusterf**k that is Europe is nothing short term to that of old UK when the barriers go up in Gretna and Newry. The SNP are continuing to whore themselves to Brussels and that will backfire on them. You are one of the few who have admitted that you would take independence at any cost and that is your right. I wonder though if there are not a lot of SNP voters out there who are feeling just a tad uncomfortable about Nicola Sturgeon making it clear that she wants to ingratiate herself to Europe at every opportunity. It's a busted flush.

PS I fully expect you to say that I have used sexual innuendo above. I have but it's not directed at an individual.

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Let's face it people's view on the mandate argument pretty much depends on where they stand on independence.

 

I think Thursday's result gives a mandate for a second Independence referendum and that if Westminster denies a quick one within the 2 year Brexit timespan then that'll just polarize things even further and we'll have one (and a more bitter one at that) after the next set of Holyrood/General elections.

 

As that great Scottish patriot MacBeth said "If it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly:"

 

I voted Remain on Thursday, didn't want this scenario but even less do I want to remain (sic) in the UK of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

Edited by Bud the Baker
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5 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Let's face it the people's view on the mandate argument pretty much depends on where they stand on the independence vote.

 

I think Thursday's result gives a mandate and that if Westminster denies a quick one within the 2 year Brexit timespan then that'll just polarize things even further and we'll have one (and a more bitter one at that) after the next set of Holyrood/General elections.

 

As that great Scottish patriot MacBeth said "If it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly:"

 

I voted Remain on Thursday, didn't want this scenario but even less do I want to remain (sic) in the UK of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

Good post. I don't vote but my position was that my heart said leave but my head said stay. Listen to the jungle drums coming from Europe and America. It wasn't a fear campaign that Cameron & Co were spreading. It was the truth. I felt we could afford to hold on for a year or two until Europe expired which would have prevented the nastiness, but so be it. Does everyone who thinks a debate at least about immigration should be on the agenda a racist? I don't think so.

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14 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Let's face it the people's view on the mandate argument pretty much depends on where they stand on independence.

 

I think Thursday's result gives a mandate for a second Independence referendum and that if Westminster denies a quick one within the 2 year Brexit timespan then that'll just polarize things even further and we'll have one (and a more bitter one at that) after the next set of Holyrood/General elections.

 

As that great Scottish patriot MacBeth said "If it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly:"

 

I voted Remain on Thursday, didn't want this scenario but even less do I want to remain (sic) in the UK of Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

If we leave the UK this time there will be no if's or but's about the Pound , it will definitely be the Eu*o for us . I believed that Alex would have secured the Pound the last time but if we force the issue again and the rest of the UK leave , l'll guarantee we get the Eu*o. .

I still don't get the SNP fascination with Europe, considering the way they have f**ked the economy of other small countries  . Even at the conference in the Hydro in November 2014 Alex and Sturgeon were both shouting for it . .

I wonder if it has anything to do with Alex's unhealthy friendship with that c**t Murdoch. .

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On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 8:34 AM, saintnextlifetime said:

If we leave the UK this time there will be no if's or but's about the Pound , it will definitely be the Eu*o for us . I believed that Alex would have secured the Pound the last time but if we force the issue again and the rest of the UK leave , l'll guarantee we get the Eu*o. .

I still don't get the SNP fascination with Europe, considering the way they have f**ked the economy of other small countries  . Even at the conference in the Hydro in November 2014 Alex and Sturgeon were both shouting for it . .

I wonder if it has anything to do with Alex's unhealthy friendship with that c**t Murdoch. .

For me it is about an alternative to approaching 40 years of centre/centre right/right wing government in the UK and to repeat my previous post the desire to "exit the Br" of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson which makes me shudder - and not with pleasure.

I feel confident that an "Independence within Europe" stance would win, it's hard to see English politicians showing much enthusiasm to keep us and it would be contradictory for any of the them who campaigned to leave the EU to do so (Farage practically told us to F-off if that was what we wanted back in 2014), you can't imagine the three main party leaders coming together again like they did on the final Sunday before the Independence referendum when the polls were showing a swing to a Yes vote.

It wouldn't be perfect but I believe it's the best option.

 

*****************

I was watching a "Reaction to Brexit from other EU countries" feature this morning and a guy from the RoI said it was great news for them as they'd be the only English speaking country in the EU - who's to say we wouldn't benefit tremendously from ditching our southern neighbours?

Edited by Bud the Baker
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2 hours ago, RickMcD said:

Typical reply from you. I have made my views on the EU many times. It's an undemocratic clusterf**k of the highest order and has been on the road to implosion for years. Now that one of the few net contributors has finally been forced out by their own electorate, that implosion is coming sooner. Now, if you do understand written English, you might just might start to comprehend that my opinion of the EU could hardly be more diametrically opposed to ZA's. But I defend freedom of speech and am happy to have dialogue with anyone once they stop flinging round insults, especially with childish sexual innuendo thrown in to boot.

The clusterf**k that is Europe is nothing short term to that of old UK when the barriers go up in Gretna and Newry. The SNP are continuing to whore themselves to Brussels and that will backfire on them. You are one of the few who have admitted that you would take independence at any cost and that is your right. I wonder though if there are not a lot of SNP voters out there who are feeling just a tad uncomfortable about Nicola Sturgeon making it clear that she wants to ingratiate herself to Europe at every opportunity. It's a busted flush.

PS I fully expect you to say that I have used sexual innuendo above. I have but it's not directed at an individual.

 

I agree Nicola Sturgeon wants Scotland to be in the EU. As leader of the SNP, clearly she wants Scotland to be independent. So, if she suddenly turned around and said, 'you know, I have to admit it,  the EU is an undemocratic clusterfcuk, and clearly the UK is a disintegrating clusterfcuk heading for BoJo in charge... so I've changed my position, I want Scotland to be independent, out of the UK, and also out of the EU, fcuk the lot of them, it's just us....'

Where would that leave us, leave her, leave her party? She cannot possibly take an 'out of the UK AND the EU' stance.

I don't know what position she is supposed to take. Damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, but hey, that's the gig she wanted all her life, so she needs to deal with it. What position would you suggest she, as leader of a strong SNP under current fcuked-up circumstances takes?

My opinion is I'm not sure what alternative position she could take as things stand. It seems to me that while the EU is far from perfect, increasingly, England could find itself being the leper of Europe. I've had a look at the way many of the big European newspapers reported Brexit. As a prime example, Germany's 'Bild' pretty heavily featured 'Scotland said remain' stories. Same happened elsewhere.

In so many areas, Scotland is so clearly completely different from our increasingly fractured ToryBoy lead neighbours to the South. I don't really want us to be aligned with them any longer. No position Sturgeon takes is perfect, but independence in Europe, would provide Scotland with a better future than being stuck with the clusterfcuk that is England... IMHO.

I'm prepared to put my trust in the Scottish people, and if we were in the EU, for example, who's to say that a city like Edinburgh, already a strong financial centre, wouldn't position itself as a gateway to the EU market, to rival Amsterdam and Frankfurt. London is in danger of losing a lot of its clout and prestige. We could use our position to our advantage to make Scotland a good place to do business in Europe. Maybes aye, maybes naw, but everything is a gamble right now. It's all fcuked-up. Might not be perfect, an independent Scotland in Europe, but what is perfect? Nada, zilch, no option is all sweetness and light, never will be.

 

Edited by pozbaird
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Guest TPAFKATS
Pound or Euros or Dollar , etc ............

What does it matter ?

Could somebody explain to me ?

We are heading for a cashless society anyway.

Am I just daft ? :blink:

Money isn't real,

It's all a sham

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For me it is about an alternative to approaching 40 years of centre/centre right/right wing government in the UK and to repeat my previous post the desire to "exit the Br" of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson which makes me shudder - and not with pleasure.

I feel confident that an "Independence within Europe" stance will win, it's hard to see English politicians showing much enthusiasm to keep us and it would be contradictory for any of the them who campaigned to leave the EU to do so (Farage practically told us to F-off if that was what we wanted back in 2014), you can't imagine the three main party leaders coming together again like they did on the final Sunday before the Independence referendum when the polls were showing a swing to a Yes vote.

It wouldn't be perfect but I believe it's the best option.

 

*****************

I was watching a "Reaction to Brexit from other EU countries" feature this morning and a guy from the RoI said it was great news for them as they'd be the only English speaking country in the EU - who's to say we wouldn't benefit tremendously from ditching our southern neighbours?

Really Bud? An alternative to right wing government? Have you had a look round European politics? In Germany Merkel, more right wing than Cameron, is practically untouchable. In France the Socialist government is unlikely to survive the next election and there's a real possibility of Le Pens National Front - more right wing than the BNP - taking office. In Austria and Poland far right politics is on the rise. In Sweden the far right hold the balance of power currently and in Denmark their right wing government is heavily influenced by a popular far right party. And in Greece the most violent right wing party in Europe, Golden Dawn, with a leader who says he admires Hitler, is the third most popular party with a growing membership and increase popularity.

Now I voted Remain and stated, as did you, that I didn't care about the outcome but if your motive is avoiding right wing politics the EU is the last place you should be looking.

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3 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Really Bud? An alternative to right wing government? Have you had a look round European politics? In Germany Merkel, more right wing than Cameron, is practically untouchable. In France the Socialist government is unlikely to survive the next election and there's a real possibility of Le Pens National Front - more right wing than the BNP - taking office. In Austria and Poland far right politics is on the rise. In Sweden the far right hold the balance of power currently and in Denmark their right wing government is heavily influenced by a popular far right party. And in Greece the most violent right wing party in Europe, Golden Dawn, with a leader who says he admires Hitler, is the third most popular party with a growing membership and increase popularity.

Now I voted Remain and stated, as did you, that I didn't care about the outcome but if your motive is avoiding right wing politics the EU is the last place you should be looking.

Some specific points -

Merkel more right wing than Cameron - Merkel is a Christian Democrat who are generally considered centre-right as opposed to Cameron who is Conservative and just plain old right wing.

The French NF might be the largest single party in the first round like 2014/15 but in the second round when it's a run-off between the top two they'll lose as they always do.

The current Swedish coalition government is centre left/green, there are no parties in the Swedish parliament that would be considered far right like UKIP or the French NF.

**************

As I've stated above I'm under no illusion that the EU and it's parliament is perfect but it's a better option than Westminster and the Tories who in the last election moved to the right to attract UKIP voters and contain the deeply unpalatable Britannia Unchained faction who already have a member, Priti Patel, at Cabinet level (unlike the far right in Denmark). The UK Conservative Party is currently the most right wing party in government within the EU and it looks to be heading even further from the centre in reaction to Thursday's result ahead of it's departure.

I'm happy with NS's current strategy.

 

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker
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History always repeats itself. Sturgeon attempting to negotiate with the EU has echos of this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305

LOL you scraping the Barrow looking for dregs go watch the football to take your mind off things you can't handle lol.

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History always repeats itself. Sturgeon attempting to negotiate with the EU has echos of this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305

LOL you scraping the Barrow looking for dregs go watch the football to take your mind off things you can't handle lol.

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History always repeats itself. Sturgeon attempting to negotiate with the EU has echos of this....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305

And I thought you couldn't get lower than your DM contribution...

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10 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

For me it is about an alternative to approaching 40 years of centre/centre right/right wing government in the UK and to repeat my previous post the desire to "exit the Br" of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson which makes me shudder - and not with pleasure.

I feel confident that an "Independence within Europe" stance will win, it's hard to see English politicians showing much enthusiasm to keep us and it would be contradictory for any of the them who campaigned to leave the EU to do so (Farage practically told us to F-off if that was what we wanted back in 2014), you can't imagine the three main party leaders coming together again like they did on the final Sunday before the Independence referendum when the polls were showing a swing to a Yes vote.

It wouldn't be perfect but I believe it's the best option.

 

*****************

I was watching a "Reaction to Brexit from other EU countries" feature this morning and a guy from the RoI said it was great news for them as they'd be the only English speaking country in the EU - who's to say we wouldn't benefit tremendously from ditching our southern neighbours?

Anyone , who likes democracy and has looked into how Europe is run , would not want to be part of an unaccountable , dictatorship run for the benefit of German financiers and industrialists.

My forebears fought a war so as to avoid exactly what Europe is all about . They fought to preserve a bit of decency , and to preserve the British rule of law , which whilst it might not be perfect they are better than what Europe has to offer .

So far , I have heard young voters say that they wish to stay in Europe because they feel they get a better mobile phone deal !! So they are willing to give up their birth right for a phone deal .

I have never understood the SNP policy of - Independence in Europe . That is a contradiction of terms as far as I'm concerned . Independence whilst still being part of a Union , is NOT independence , simply put , you are still dependent on someone and in this case the particular someone will still your freedom and wreck your economy . .

Have we all forgotten what they did to Greece, Cyprus and Eire ? They also have had Spain and Italy teetering .

With no chance of getting a future seat in the House of Lords , perhaps wee Sturgeon sees herself , in the future , taking up safe post in Europe(one you can't be voted out from) , you know something like the one the Kinnock's had that turned them into millionaires . .

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3 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Anyone , who likes democracy and has looked into how Europe is run , would not want to be part of an unaccountable , dictatorship run for the benefit of German financiers and industrialists.

My forebears fought a war so as to avoid exactly what Europe is all about . They fought to preserve a bit of decency , and to preserve the British rule of law , which whilst it might not be perfect they are better than what Europe has to offer .

So far , I have heard young voters say that they wish to stay in Europe because they feel they get a better mobile phone deal !! So they are willing to give up their birth right for a phone deal .

I have never understood the SNP policy of - Independence in Europe . That is a contradiction of terms as far as I'm concerned . Independence whilst still being part of a Union , is NOT independence , simply put , you are still dependent on someone and in this case the particular someone will still your freedom and wreck your economy . .

Have we all forgotten what they did to Greece, Cyprus and Eire ? They also have had Spain and Italy teetering .

With no chance of getting a future seat in the House of Lords , perhaps wee Sturgeon sees herself , in the future , taking up safe post in Europe(one you can't be voted out from) , you know something like the one the Kinnock's had that turned them into millionaires . .

I've had this debate before -

There are 4 countries in the UK England, the largest, makes up 83% of the population. 

There are 28 countries in the EU Germany, the largest, makes up less than 16%.

Although Scotland makes up even less of the total population of the EU, there is not the same degree of dominance by the largest country as in the UK. We would have the opportunity to form alliances with other small countries and perhaps hold the balance of power at times.

My forebears also fought in the two World Wars but the world (sic) has moved on there are new battles to fight (hopefully not in the military sense) and if the young ones top priority is the price of mobile phone contracts then so it.

As for the Kinnocks there'll always be grubbers but "stop the world I want to get off" is not an option.

What else can I say but reiterate my opinion: Independence within the EU - not perfect, but the best alternative.

 

.

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