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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

The SNP need to stop wittering on about Indyref2 having to happen right now, drop the grievance politics and demonstrate that they have listened to and accepted the 2014 result before voters start switching off.

They then need to lay out the case for Indyref2 towards the end of this decade at least to show they've at least made an attempt at waiting a generation. They need to let Brexit bed in and work towards building the polls in their favour whilst continuing to return solid election wins.

The power to call Indyref2 should have been handed over already but it's been mixed up with actually using that power immediately and also the very real prospect of neverendums.

My opinion is, it's now out of their hands and they need to be pushing for indyref2. They are the elected party in Scotland based on a manifesto promise to pursue indyref2 if there is a clear change in situation, like Scotland being taken out the EU against the democratic will of the Scottish people. They also won 80% of Scottish seats in last GE on a promise to go for Indyref2 with a desired timescale being 2020. To drop it now would not be honouring more recent, relevant votes and as such democracy. 

Edited by bazil85
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Guest TPAFKATS
Like I have mentioned several times previously it was NEVER going to happen, like it or not ( many do NOT like it I am aware) but Scotland IS part of the UK and an independence vote was sanctioned  ( a once in a lifetime 'supposedly' vote) the free Scotland camp lost............end of ......move on.
It was never a once in a lifetime vote
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21 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:
1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:
It was never a once in a lifetime vote

They conveniently miss out the rest of the quote regarding if circumstances change. IE taken out of The EU against the majority of voters in that referendum.

The once in a lifetime quote was conveniently an open-ended lie, much as you might expect any snivelling politician to make.

quoting it for either side of the argument does no one any favours.

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It’s all equivocation and no straight answers with politicians. 
 

no need to waste energy comparing and contrasting quotes.

De Pfeffel just said a short sharp no to the waffle from Sturgeon.

both were aware that NOTHING will happen on this for a long time.  Sturgeon has to “show” her restless punters that she’s really trying!

De Pfeffel can’t waste energy on this as he is getting Brexit done!

 

all bollox, is all...

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Guest TPAFKATS
Was it not once in a generation rather than lifetime?  How a generation is defined is open to debate.
Yes, never a lifetime. Generation would be 7 years according to Northern Irish political agreements.
Anyway, the Smith commission states that the agreement in no way prevents Scotland's right to choose its future.
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59 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Was it not once in a generation rather than lifetime?  How a generation is defined is open to debate.

 

4 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

Yes, never a lifetime. Generation would be 7 years according to Northern Irish political agreements.
Anyway, the Smith commission states that the agreement in no way prevents Scotland's right to choose its future.

Behave yourselves, you two, we can't have another indyref right now because some SNP (baaaaaad) people said 2014 was a once in a generation opportunity and everyone knows that "a once in a generation opportunity" is defined ( somewhere in someone's head) as "Not for another 50+ years so tough tumshy, Jock."

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2 hours ago, cockles1987 said:

They conveniently miss out the rest of the quote regarding if circumstances change. IE taken out of The EU against the majority of voters in that referendum.

Unfortunately it's false news that's become generally accepted due to repetition by Unionist politicians and their meeja lickspittles are happy to repeat.

Hopefully @jaybee will refrain from using this false news in the future.

*********************

Circumstanced that have changed

  • The failure to implement "The Vow" made by Cameron, Clegg & Milliband.
  • The argument that voting NO was the only way Scotland could stay in the EU becoming redundant and the subsequent attempt by Westminster to steal powers that should be returned to Hollyrood.

**********************

Scotland and England are no longer politically compatible, the split that began when the Thatcher Govt. ditched One Nation Toryism in 79 has become a chasm and it's only gonna get wider - the bottom line is if Unionists were convinced they'd win IndyRef2 it'd be happening this year.

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Guest TPAFKATS
It’s all equivocation and no straight answers with politicians. 
 
no need to waste energy comparing and contrasting quotes.
De Pfeffel just said a short sharp no to the waffle from Sturgeon.
both were aware that NOTHING will happen on this for a long time.  Sturgeon has to “show” her restless punters that she’s really trying!
De Pfeffel can’t waste energy on this as he is getting Brexit done!
 
all bollox, is all...
Sturgeon has just said different to this.
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37 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
2 hours ago, antrin said:
It’s all equivocation and no straight answers with politicians. 
 
no need to waste energy comparing and contrasting quotes.
De Pfeffel just said a short sharp no to the waffle from Sturgeon.
both were aware that NOTHING will happen on this for a long time.  Sturgeon has to “show” her restless punters that she’s really trying!
De Pfeffel can’t waste energy on this as he is getting Brexit done!
 
all bollox, is all...

Sturgeon has just said different to this.

as I said, "It’s all equivocation and no straight answers with politicians. "

I have no idea which bit of the things wot I wrote are what Sturgeon has just said, but at a guess, she maybe said she would strive to get INDYREF2  done?

Or has she just said she wasn't really trying?

There are a lot of impatient nationalists about.  She has to keep them onside, believe she is making progress and stop them bombing postboxes again.

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5 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:
16 hours ago, jaybee said:
Like I have mentioned several times previously it was NEVER going to happen, like it or not ( many do NOT like it I am aware) but Scotland IS part of the UK and an independence vote was sanctioned  ( a once in a lifetime 'supposedly' vote) the free Scotland camp lost............end of ......move on.

It was never a once in a lifetime vote

Isn't it funny though how , at the time................. nobody mentioned that?  And yet as soon as THEY didn't get what THEY wanted ............all of a sudden.............

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6 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

The ongoing dispute over the brexit issue won't go away just because those disposed towards a union wish it to do so. The fact remains that the point was made repeatedly by David Cameron and others that the way to ensure Scotland stayed in Europe was to vote no. That and s vow to delegate greater powers and, so we were told the right of self determination subject only to consultation. The Sottish Government maintained that this amounted to a power of veto but these claims were said to be false.. Time and events have clearly shown that remaining in the union has not safeguarded the Scottish People's clear will to remain in Europe and that Westminster sees a veto where they previously maintained there was none.. Disingenuous to say the least.  

Before Unionists jump on me, I am not sure how I would vote in an Independence Referendum but would definitely like to see a more federal system in place. 

The problem here Ricky is it sounds a little like someone going into a bookies and taking advice from all and sundry which when conflated amounts to probably the best bets is................., and then guess what another horse won and SO now all the jocks want their money back. Nae chance!!!!  😎

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17 minutes ago, jaybee said:

The problem here Ricky is it sounds a little like someone going into a bookies and taking advice from all and sundry which when conflated amounts to probably the best bets is................., and then guess what another horse won and SO now all the jocks want their money back. Nae chance!!!!  😎

I take your point

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Guest TPAFKATS

 

Isn't it funny though how , at the time................. nobody mentioned that?  And yet as soon as THEY didn't get what THEY wanted ............all of a sudden.............

No, because no one said it was once in a lifetime.

Anyway, things change and if a party is continually elected with a manifesto of having another vote on it, (3 general elections and one Scottish election in 5 years) then that us democracy for you.

 

Of course, it doesn't mean the vote will be a yes.

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No, because no one said it was once in a lifetime.
Anyway, things change and if a party is continually elected with a manifesto of having another vote on it, (3 general elections and one Scottish election in 5 years) then that us democracy for you.
 
Of course, it doesn't mean the vote will be a yes.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/scottish-independence-referendum-yes-no-agree-once-in-lifetime-vote
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Guest TPAFKATS
Ffs, how poor is that journalism.

The headline says its once in a lifetime before putting quotations around Salmond saying once in a generation in the first paragraph.

Cameron mentions neither.

It then quotes Prof John Curtice, talking about once in a lifetime presumably as the "journalist" asked about that. He then talks about a generation again...

 

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2 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

Ffs, how poor is that journalism.

The headline says its once in a lifetime before putting quotations around Salmond saying once in a generation in the first paragraph.

Cameron mentions neither.

It then quotes Prof John Curtice, talking about once in a lifetime presumably as the "journalist" asked about that. He then talks about a generation again...

 

It's a reflection of how politicians waffle away,  allowing - no,  WANTING -  press and populace to think whatever they want to believe.  I would bet that various politicians (on both sides) have used both generation and lifetime as words to describe what they thought whatever audience they were addressing, would want to hear. 

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Guest TPAFKATS
It's a reflection of how politicians waffle away,  allowing - no,  WANTING -  press and populace to think whatever they want to believe.  I would bet that various politicians (on both sides) have used both generation and lifetime as words to describe what they thought whatever audience they were addressing, would want to hear. 
Betting is a mugs game though [emoji6]
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6 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:
6 hours ago, jaybee said:
Isn't it funny though how , at the time................. nobody mentioned that?  And yet as soon as THEY didn't get what THEY wanted ............all of a sudden.............

 

No, because no one said it was once in a lifetime.

Anyway, things change and if a party is continually elected with a manifesto of having another vote on it, (3 general elections and one Scottish election in 5 years) then that us democracy for you.

 

Of course, it doesn't mean the vote will be a yes.

To be honest I think SHE is playing to her audience .........in other words 'that' which they expect,I personally have no time for the woman; but to give her her due, she knows the score and the bait to feed the nationalism bods to keep them off her back. I sincerely believe there is not one chance in a million that there will be another devo vote for a decade at a minimum.

 

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On 1/15/2020 at 10:56 AM, Slartibartfast said:

Was it not once in a generation rather than lifetime?  How a generation is defined is open to debate.

Lots of people have died since 2014 

Lots of people have been born. 

The stupidity of the once in a life time lie is staggering normal for P&B

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Regardless of whether or not this “generation” thing was said (of which there’s no mention of it in the Smith Commission), the “material change” had happened with Brexit.

If it was 2014 and No had just won, and Westminster proceeded to close down Holyrood, cut our MP allocation from 59 to 14, and decided to execute 30% of Scots, would you sit there and say “ah well it was a once in a generation vote, we’ll have to wait before voting again”, or would you consider that a change too big to be ignored?

Equally, if Westminster had actually stuck to the vows made, had respected our Remain vote and agreed to allow Scotland some sort of EU access, and treated Scotland as an equal nation instead of dictating what would happen, then calls for Indyref2 would be non-existent.

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26 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Regardless of whether or not this “generation” thing was said (of which there’s no mention of it in the Smith Commission), the “material change” had happened with Brexit.

If it was 2014 and No had just won, and Westminster proceeded to close down Holyrood, cut our MP allocation from 59 to 14, and decided to execute 30% of Scots, would you sit there and say “ah well it was a once in a generation vote, we’ll have to wait before voting again”, or would you consider that a change too big to be ignored?

Equally, if Westminster had actually stuck to the vows made, had respected our Remain vote and agreed to allow Scotland some sort of EU access, and treated Scotland as an equal nation instead of dictating what would happen, then calls for Indyref2 would be non-existent.

Normally I quite enjoy reading your opinions but I have to ask if you've been drinking before posting this one. :lol:

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