antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Slarti said: But, again, how do you determine who is a Scottish national? And I'm not talking about the horse race at Ayr. US citizens abroad are also subject to US income tax, irrespective of whether they pay income tax in their country of residence. How do you fancy that scenario? Currently (if I had any work), I would pay Income Tax in my country of residence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 Currently (if I had any work), I would pay Income Tax in my country of residence.But how do you fancy also paying income tax in another country?Oh, can I get a vote in the London Mayoral elections please? After all, I am British. I don't have a passport though, so maybe I shouldn't get to vote in anything. Is that how it works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, salmonbuddie said: So you disenfranchised yourself then, like my brother who lives in Wales? He votes in Wales only, his wife is Welsh, she voted in Scotland when they lived in Scotland, now she votes in Wales again. My nephew was born in England, Scottish father, identifies as Scottish - does he get a vote? Where do you draw the line? The vote concerns the people directly affected by it, the people of Scotland. Get registered to vote in Scotland, get to vote in Scotland. The precedent was set in 2014 so nope, you don't get a vote. ALL the people in the UK are directly affected by the silliness, possibly more so - those Scots living south of the border. I haven't disenfranchised myself - a Nationalist, separatist government has done that - and it is a Nationalist government that cannot organise votes for all Scottish people, unlike civilised, modern democratic states. Edited September 5, 2020 by antrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Slarti said: But how do you fancy also paying income tax in another country? Oh, can I get a vote in the London Mayoral elections please? After all, I am British. I don't have a passport though, so maybe I shouldn't get to vote in anything. Is that how it works? But it is not another country. Income Tax currently is a UK Tax. The money to pay for yet another ONCE-IN-A -LIFETIME Separatist vote comes from a common purse, into which I have contributed. You don't live in London Mayoral elections, so you get a local vote in Renfrewshire which helps elect your Provosts or whatever. If a vote that impacts the UK arises, you would get a vote in that - wherever you live in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTOF Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, antrin said: But it is not another country. Income Tax currently is a UK Tax. The money to pay for yet another ONCE-IN-A -LIFETIME Separatist vote comes from a common purse, into which I have contributed. You don't live in London Mayoral elections, so you get a local vote in Renfrewshire which helps elect your Provosts or whatever. If a vote that impacts the UK arises, you would get a vote in that - wherever you live in the UK. Given the amount of money (£1 billion and rising) that the waffling clown spunked on useless vanity projects, when he was mayor of London, which everyone in the UK paid for, maybe we should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 ALL the people in the UK are directly affected by the silliness, possibly more so - those Scots living south of the border. I haven't disenfranchised myself - a Nationalist, separatist government has done that - and it is a Nationalist government that cannot organise votes for all Scottish people, unlike civilised, modern democratic states. Even if I accepted that, and I don't, can you now address the elephant in the room. Where are you going to draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 But it is not another country. Income Tax currently is a UK Tax. The money to pay for yet another ONCE-IN-A -LIFETIME Separatist vote comes from a common purse, into which I have contributed. You don't live in London Mayoral elections, so you get a local vote in Renfrewshire which helps elect your Provosts or whatever. If a vote that impacts the UK arises, you would get a vote in that - wherever you live in the UK.Can you clarify this "ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME" statement, please, it's not a phrase I recognise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 But it is not another country. Income Tax currently is a UK Tax. The money to pay for yet another ONCE-IN-A -LIFETIME Separatist vote comes from a common purse, into which I have contributed. You don't live in London Mayoral elections, so you get a local vote in Renfrewshire which helps elect your Provosts or whatever. If a vote that impacts the UK arises, you would get a vote in that - wherever you live in the UK.My point exactly, but I had to lead you to agree with me. It is the UK, but you don't get to vote in every election in the whole UK, only ones in your area, so why would you now expect to get a vote somewhere you don't live?But you've said that London subsidises the rest of the country, so it affects me, so I should get a vote.If a by-election takes place which has the potential to change the ruling party, should everyone get to vote on it as it impacts the UK, or just the people in that constituency?If BJ resigns, should everyone get to vote on the new Tory leader (and PM).Out of curiosity, exactly who do you think should get to vote in a Scottish IndyRef?As an aside, "You don't live in London Mayoral elections" either. [emoji38] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 59 minutes ago, antrin said: But it is not another country. Income Tax currently is a UK Tax. The money to pay for yet another ONCE-IN-A -LIFETIME Separatist vote comes from a common purse, into which I have contributed. You don't live in London Mayoral elections, so you get a local vote in Renfrewshire which helps elect your Provosts or whatever. If a vote that impacts the UK arises, you would get a vote in that - wherever you live in the UK. You are playing the English game with that one but, it WILL BE a once in a lifetime vote for some. It was actually claimed to be a ONCE IN A GENERATION vote which actually would have served your view far better though, it still wouldn't be true. Nowhere in the manifesto did it claim this. It was a campaign tactic to focus the minds of supporters. Never anything official. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, antrin said: But it is not another country. Income Tax currently is a UK Tax. The money to pay for yet another ONCE-IN-A -LIFETIME Separatist vote comes from a common purse, into which I have contributed. You don't live in London Mayoral elections, so you get a local vote in Renfrewshire which helps elect your Provosts or whatever. If a vote that impacts the UK arises, you would get a vote in that - wherever you live in the UK. The UK is not a country. It is a union of several countries. Didn't you boomers get taught anything worthwhile at school before you all left at 13 to work "down t' pits"? And even if you were correct about the UK being a country, Scotland could only either be another country (in which you don't live or work) or it would be a UK region (in which you don't live or work). Your argument is defeated on all counts. And with that, I'm off to celebrate my win with a mug of tea and a huge slice of smug. Edited September 5, 2020 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 9 hours ago, salmonbuddie said: Even if I accepted that, and I don't, can you now address the elephant in the room. Where are you going to draw the line? Same place as French, US etc draw the line. If you can turn up at a nominated place (like an embassy) with a passport or birth certificate proving place of birth. Simples. Real governments can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 9 hours ago, Slarti said: My point exactly, but I had to lead you to agree with me. It is the UK, but you don't get to vote in every election in the whole UK, only ones in your area, so why would you now expect to get a vote somewhere you don't live? Have you not been reading my replies? But you've said that London subsidises the rest of the country, so it affects me, so I should get a vote. If London Town decided to implement a plan that would disrupt Scotland and, say, stop its funding of the rump Uk, then yes, of course you should have a means of demonstrating your dislike. But you’re being wildly hypothetical, as it’s unlikely that London would be as disruptive. If a by-election takes place which has the potential to change the ruling party, should everyone get to vote on it as it impacts the UK, or just the people in that constituency? A by-election would be unlikely to do that, as no govt winging it on a single seat would have lasted anyway. However, such a swing would provoke a General Election, so yes, you’d then get your chance to vote. (That’s a disappointingly, wildly-pointless swing from you.) If BJ resigns, should everyone get to vote on the new Tory leader (and PM). That’s another pathetic chestnut. You vote for a government. Winners choose and Dump their leaders. Always has been the way. Labour and Tories have done so in ‘recent’ years. Out of curiosity, exactly who do you think should get to vote in a Scottish IndyRef? The point under discussion is really only about how it excludes the likes of Scots like me. As an aside, "You don't live in London Mayoral elections" either. I’m well aware, as you likely know. I was using that construction simply to avoid the boring clunkiness of Saying you already have a vote in your local elections... and that if West of Scotland had equivalent structures to Some English cities Plus “Mayors, you’d have a vote in that. Splitting the Union is a totally different animal. It has ramifications for the country of my birth and that in which I live. Totally unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 8 hours ago, oaksoft said: The UK is not a country. It is a union of several countries. Didn't you boomers get taught anything worthwhile at school before you all left at 13 to work "down t' pits"? And even if you were correct about the UK being a country, Scotland could only either be another country (in which you don't live or work) or it would be a UK region (in which you don't live or work). Your argument is defeated on all counts. And with that, I'm off to celebrate my win with a mug of tea and a huge slice of smug. That’s more childish of you than usual. I know all that, of course. I was responding, perfectly validly to Slarti’s... “But how do you fancy also paying income tax in another country?“ Enjoy your smug. 😛 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, stlucifer said: You are playing the English game with that one but, it WILL BE a once in a lifetime vote for some. It was actually claimed to be a ONCE IN A GENERATION vote which actually would have served your view far better though, it still wouldn't be true. Nowhere in the manifesto did it claim this. It was a campaign tactic to focus the minds of supporters. Never anything official. I’d normally tend to agree with you on that, however... the basturtin tories electoral And the brexit campaigns have been odiously refusing to live up to their non-promises in exactly the same Bollox manner. Say all sorts of shitty lies, then deny them all once you're elected. I'd hold SNP to the same standards as I’d do with any other political party. (fwiw, I’ll never forgive Bliar and Broon For their actions after their 1997 Electoral ‘promises’ unfulfilled.) Edited September 5, 2020 by antrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 9 hours ago, stlucifer said: You are playing the English game with that one but, it WILL BE a once in a lifetime vote for some. It was actually claimed to be a ONCE IN A GENERATION vote which actually would have served your view far better though, it still wouldn't be true. Nowhere in the manifesto did it claim this. It was a campaign tactic to focus the minds of supporters. Never anything official. I’d normally tend to agree with you on that, however... the basturtin tories electoral And the brexit campaigns have been odiously refusing to live up to their non-promises in exactly the same Bollox manner. Say all sorts of shitty lies, then deny them all once you're elected. I'd hold SNP to the same standards as I’d do with any other political party. (fwiw, I’ll never forgive Bliar and Broon For their actions after 1997 Electoral ‘promises unfulfilled.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 HERE ENDETH THE SERMON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, antrin said: . Edited September 5, 2020 by antrin Cock-up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 5, 2020 Report Share Posted September 5, 2020 1 hour ago, antrin said: That’s more childish of you than usual. I know all that, of course. I was responding, perfectly validly to Slarti’s... “But how do you fancy also paying income tax in another country?“ Enjoy your smug. 😛 It was delicious thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 Same place as French, US etc draw the line. If you can turn up at a nominated place (like an embassy) with a passport or birth certificate proving place of birth. Simples. Real governments can do it.Indeed.Once Scotland is independent and has the ability to issue passports it'll be easy to do this. You increasingly appear to be against Scottish independence primarily because you don't get to have a vote on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slarti Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 My point exactly, but I had to lead you to agree with me. It is the UK, but you don't get to vote in every election in the whole UK, only ones in your area, so why would you now expect to get a vote somewhere you don't live? Have you not been reading my replies? But you've said that London subsidises the rest of the country, so it affects me, so I should get a vote. If London Town decided to implement a plan that would disrupt Scotland and, say, stop its funding of the rump Uk, then yes, of course you should have a means of demonstrating your dislike. But you’re being wildly hypothetical, as it’s unlikely that London would be as disruptive. If a by-election takes place which has the potential to change the ruling party, should everyone get to vote on it as it impacts the UK, or just the people in that constituency? A by-election would be unlikely to do that, as no govt winging it on a single seat would have lasted anyway. However, such a swing would provoke a General Election, so yes, you’d then get your chance to vote. (That’s a disappointingly, wildly-pointless swing from you.) If BJ resigns, should everyone get to vote on the new Tory leader (and PM). That’s another pathetic chestnut. You vote for a government. Winners choose and Dump their leaders. Always has been the way. Labour and Tories have done so in ‘recent’ years. Out of curiosity, exactly who do you think should get to vote in a Scottish IndyRef? The point under discussion is really only about how it excludes the likes of Scots like me. As an aside, "You don't live in London Mayoral elections" either. [emoji38] I’m well aware, as you likely know. I was using that construction simply to avoid the boring clunkiness of Saying you already have a vote in your local elections... and that if West of Scotland had equivalent structures to Some English cities Plus “Mayors, you’d have a vote in that. Splitting the Union is a totally different animal. It has ramifications for the country of my birth and that in which I live. Totally unique It wouldn't necessarily result in a GE and what the parties do now is irrelevant. I specifically said "should", not "would" and was in relation to your criteria about why you should get a vote (because it affects the whole UK). But it isn't really the only point under discussion because, as things stand, it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Being born in Scotland does not automatically make someone "Scottish" in the same way that being born outside of Scotland does not automatically make someone "not Scottish". I'm not commenting on your personal "Scottishness", just a general observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 2 hours ago, TPAFKATS said: Indeed. Once Scotland is independent and has the ability to issue passports it'll be easy to do this. Most Scots of voting age already have a passport. Cringey excuse, that. You increasingly appear to be against Scottish independence primarily because you don't get to have a vote on it. Hell, no! That would be the least of it. And a different discussion. There are positives and negatives. Like the brexit thing. I was against it, but could see why some people might appreciate it... though I’m sure few voted for a No Deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 51 minutes ago, Slarti said: But it isn't really the only point under discussion because, as things stand, it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Being born in Scotland does not automatically make someone "Scottish" in the same way that being born outside of Scotland does not automatically make someone "not Scottish". I'm not commenting on your personal "Scottishness", just a general observation. Just as general an observation... arriving from “anywhere” as a student, immigrant or refugee in Scotland and almost immediately being regarded as Scottish-enough to participate In such a vote seems to me to be equally as arbitrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjerseybuddie Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 Forgive me if this point has been raised before and forgive me a second time as an exiled Scot having an opinion on an issue that won’t really have any effect on me politically but certainly emotionally. Here goes: The previous yes campaign was doomed when the Orange Order came out and marched making their declaration to the no campaign very clear. This one move persuaded a large Protestant number to vote no.( they may not be associated with the OO but would have strong Protestant beliefs) Salmond missed an opportunity to explain what a yes vote would mean regarding the monarchy as this is of very high importance to the Protestants in Scotland. My point is not one of pointing a finger at the OO it’s more pointing a finger at the yes campaign as they didn’t appear to realise how powerful and influential the Protestant vote is in Scotland. Sturgeon, being from the west coast may have a better handle on that aspect which I believe is well worth examining in more detail in preparation for a second referendum. Politics and religion are always intertwined and Scotland is no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 1 hour ago, antrin said: Just as general an observation... arriving from “anywhere” as a student, immigrant or refugee in Scotland and almost immediately being regarded as Scottish-enough to participate In such a vote seems to me to be equally as arbitrary. I'm pretty sure that isn't how it worked though. They had to be here for a few years before qualifying to vote if I recall correctly. It's hardly arbitrary though. They live and work in Scotland and so got a vote. You did neither so didn't qualify. Is that the strains of a tiny violin I hear in the background? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted September 6, 2020 Report Share Posted September 6, 2020 10 minutes ago, bigjerseybuddie said: Forgive me if this point has been raised before and forgive me a second time as an exiled Scot having an opinion on an issue that won’t really have any effect on me politically but certainly emotionally. Here goes: The previous yes campaign was doomed when the Orange Order came out and marched making their declaration to the no campaign very clear. This one move persuaded a large Protestant number to vote no.( they may not be associated with the OO but would have strong Protestant beliefs) Salmond missed an opportunity to explain what a yes vote would mean regarding the monarchy as this is of very high importance to the Protestants in Scotland. My point is not one of pointing a finger at the OO it’s more pointing a finger at the yes campaign as they didn’t appear to realise how powerful and influential the Protestant vote is in Scotland. Sturgeon, being from the west coast may have a better handle on that aspect which I believe is well worth examining in more detail in preparation for a second referendum. Politics and religion are always intertwined and Scotland is no different. I'm not persuaded that religion or the, largely irrelevant, OO played a major part in the vote at all. Maybe 30 years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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